How many people here believe that there are people who go to hell, or are punished for eternity? I hear these things that if you believe in god, you go to heaven. If you don't, do you go to hell?
-
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Thoughts on hell...
- Thread starter Mongoose
- Start date
- Status
Joshua Howard
Life, Liberty, And The Pursuit of Happiness
Most(if not all) of us here at this Theology forum are Christians, believing in heaven and Hell, God and Satan. I will mention that it is not merely 'Believing in God' that will get you to heaven, but rather, believing AND ACCEPTING that Jesus died for the sins of the world, so that the guilty MIGHT LIVE THROUGH HIM. Even the devils believe, and tremble...
Upvote
0
servant4ever
Servant of Jesus Christ
- Jan 9, 2004
- 1,917
- 78
- 41
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Single
- Politics
- US-Democrat
Hello Mongoose,
I do people that there will be people who go to hell after they die. The reason why I believe this is because only accepting Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior by faith is the way to Heaven. Jesus states in John 14:6 "I am the way, truth and the life, no one comes to the Father, except through me (NIV)." Many people today believe that if a person believes in a god, then they will go to heaven. If they do not receive Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior, by committing their life to Him through faith, then they will not be in Heaven. James 2 states that even the demons, the angels of Satan, believe in God, yet, they shudder (verse 19). We need to accept Christ as our personal Lord and Savior by faith to get to heaven. Many people also believe that if they are good enough, or nice enough, or have enough money, then that will be good enough. Ephesians 2:8-9 states that "It is by grace we are saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves, but it is the gift of God (NIV, emphasis added)." It does not matter how good we are. We will never be able to compare to God's Standard, or the Ten Commandments. We all have sinned, we all have fallen to not honoring our parents, we have fallen to lying, we have fallen to stealing, even if it is a nice pencil we liked in kindergarten. It does not matter how nice. Being nice is good, but if we are just being nice for our own pride, then it is useless. If we have enough money, that is not good enough for God. For God created money. He created the paper the money was on. It says in Matthew that we are to store our treasures in Heaven, not on earth, where rust and moth destroy.
I hope this clears everything up, have a blessed evening,
servant4ever
I do people that there will be people who go to hell after they die. The reason why I believe this is because only accepting Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior by faith is the way to Heaven. Jesus states in John 14:6 "I am the way, truth and the life, no one comes to the Father, except through me (NIV)." Many people today believe that if a person believes in a god, then they will go to heaven. If they do not receive Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior, by committing their life to Him through faith, then they will not be in Heaven. James 2 states that even the demons, the angels of Satan, believe in God, yet, they shudder (verse 19). We need to accept Christ as our personal Lord and Savior by faith to get to heaven. Many people also believe that if they are good enough, or nice enough, or have enough money, then that will be good enough. Ephesians 2:8-9 states that "It is by grace we are saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves, but it is the gift of God (NIV, emphasis added)." It does not matter how good we are. We will never be able to compare to God's Standard, or the Ten Commandments. We all have sinned, we all have fallen to not honoring our parents, we have fallen to lying, we have fallen to stealing, even if it is a nice pencil we liked in kindergarten. It does not matter how nice. Being nice is good, but if we are just being nice for our own pride, then it is useless. If we have enough money, that is not good enough for God. For God created money. He created the paper the money was on. It says in Matthew that we are to store our treasures in Heaven, not on earth, where rust and moth destroy.
I hope this clears everything up, have a blessed evening,
servant4ever
Upvote
0
Oh I'm a Christian. It's just that this has never been clarified to me, and I believe it has now been.
Now for more personal, opiniative questions. How many people here think that those who DO go to hell actually DESERVE it?
Now for more personal, opiniative questions. How many people here think that those who DO go to hell actually DESERVE it?
Upvote
0
servant4ever
Servant of Jesus Christ
- Jan 9, 2004
- 1,917
- 78
- 41
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Single
- Politics
- US-Democrat
Mongoose,
I'm glad to hear you have accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior by faith! It looks like you are pretty new to CF, welcome!
Have a blessed day!
servant4ever
I'm glad to hear you have accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior by faith! It looks like you are pretty new to CF, welcome!
Have a blessed day!
servant4ever
Upvote
0
Joshua Howard
Life, Liberty, And The Pursuit of Happiness
The Bible says that many will seek to enter into the kingdom of heaven, but few will find it. Have you truly recognized yourself to be a sinner, and come to a point of repentance, determining to live a life for Christ and him alone? There is but one way to eternal life. If you would be interested in finding out more about Salvation, I am more than willing to send you an extensive E-mail Study on it.
You need to know that saying you are a Christian isn't enough... I thought I was saved for years before I actually was. IF you truly know the Lord, you will have become a new creature in him, transformed. Of course you will still sometimes fail God, but you certainly will see his work in your life. I hope I've helped. My E-mail is JoshuaH@wans.net
One Very important point to be noted prior to salvation is this, that EVERYONE, including you and I, deserves to DIE for sin. There is no other means of payment. If we sin once, we deserve death. That is why Jesus Came to us, and died on a cross for our sins. By his innocent death, he acted as a more perfect sacrifice, making it possible for us to live, transformed and washed in his soul-changing blood.
May the Lord lead you as you seek him!
You need to know that saying you are a Christian isn't enough... I thought I was saved for years before I actually was. IF you truly know the Lord, you will have become a new creature in him, transformed. Of course you will still sometimes fail God, but you certainly will see his work in your life. I hope I've helped. My E-mail is JoshuaH@wans.net
One Very important point to be noted prior to salvation is this, that EVERYONE, including you and I, deserves to DIE for sin. There is no other means of payment. If we sin once, we deserve death. That is why Jesus Came to us, and died on a cross for our sins. By his innocent death, he acted as a more perfect sacrifice, making it possible for us to live, transformed and washed in his soul-changing blood.
There is a Fountain Filled with blood,
Drawn from Emmanuel's Veins...
And Sinners plunged Beneath that flood,
Loose All their Guilty Steins.
Drawn from Emmanuel's Veins...
And Sinners plunged Beneath that flood,
Loose All their Guilty Steins.
May the Lord lead you as you seek him!
Upvote
0
To answer your first question, yes, I do believe that I am a "sinner." I would be a fool to deny that. However, if I had a choice, I would not be a sinner. Nobody would, if they had a choice.
Now that my one question about hell has been clarified, I won't further my thoughts and discussion here, because my thoughts may not be purely Christian. I request that this discussion be locked.
Now that my one question about hell has been clarified, I won't further my thoughts and discussion here, because my thoughts may not be purely Christian. I request that this discussion be locked.
Upvote
0
Joshua Howard
Life, Liberty, And The Pursuit of Happiness
Your spiritual state was not clear to me from your past posts... Regardless of this, if I have offended you, I give you my appologies.
Upvote
0
I am a Christian. But I don't believe in a hell that is a place of eternal torment. It's not scriptural.
Upvote
0
EdmundBlackadderTheThird
Proud member of the Loud Few
Really, what Bible do you read? Mine says:
So if the smoke of their torment rises it stands to reason that their torment continues. I guess that is glossed over or explained away. Hell is a very real place and Revelation makes it clear that it is a place of eternal torment. You can try to explain it away all you like but either the Bible is the infallible word of God or it isn't. If it is then hell is real and it is place of eternal torment.
So if the smoke of their torment rises it stands to reason that their torment continues. I guess that is glossed over or explained away. Hell is a very real place and Revelation makes it clear that it is a place of eternal torment. You can try to explain it away all you like but either the Bible is the infallible word of God or it isn't. If it is then hell is real and it is place of eternal torment.
Upvote
0
I read the same Bible.
And I recognize that Revelation of John is written in the genre of an apocalypse. As such, it follows the linguistic patterns of an apocalyse. This literature was produced under great persecution with the intent of encouraging the church to remain faithful. This is the end of time, as far as they are concerned. The symbols and images are in code, but the early church had the key to the code. The recognize that Nero and the government of Rome were the subjects.
We should take this book as intended. It should help us have great respect for the persecution of the church and we should be encouraged when we experience trials. But to read it as a "code book" telling us how the end of time will work out is to not understand the type of literature it is. The early church would have recognized it, but we don't have many modern equivalents, so we are easily confused.
Either way, using the text to create doctrine is very scary. Because so much is symbolic, it is easy to interpret the symbols the wrong way.
And I recognize that Revelation of John is written in the genre of an apocalypse. As such, it follows the linguistic patterns of an apocalyse. This literature was produced under great persecution with the intent of encouraging the church to remain faithful. This is the end of time, as far as they are concerned. The symbols and images are in code, but the early church had the key to the code. The recognize that Nero and the government of Rome were the subjects.
We should take this book as intended. It should help us have great respect for the persecution of the church and we should be encouraged when we experience trials. But to read it as a "code book" telling us how the end of time will work out is to not understand the type of literature it is. The early church would have recognized it, but we don't have many modern equivalents, so we are easily confused.
Either way, using the text to create doctrine is very scary. Because so much is symbolic, it is easy to interpret the symbols the wrong way.
Upvote
0
EdmundBlackadderTheThird
Proud member of the Loud Few
Isaiah 66:24
And they shall go forth and look on the dead bodies of the men that have rebelled against me; for their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.
Matthew 18:8
And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life maimed or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.
Matthew 25:41
Then he will say to those at his left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels...
Matthew 25:46
And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mark 9:43
And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.
Mark 9:47-48
t is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.
2 Thessalonians 1:9
They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might...
Jude 1:7
[J]ust as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
I don't think any of those are considered code books. I think that you are wrong about Revelation but it is pointless to deabte that point when eternal torture and eternal fire are mentioned more than once outside of Revelation.
And they shall go forth and look on the dead bodies of the men that have rebelled against me; for their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.
Matthew 18:8
And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life maimed or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.
Matthew 25:41
Then he will say to those at his left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels...
Matthew 25:46
And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mark 9:43
And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.
Mark 9:47-48
t is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.
2 Thessalonians 1:9
They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might...
Jude 1:7
[J]ust as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
I don't think any of those are considered code books. I think that you are wrong about Revelation but it is pointless to deabte that point when eternal torture and eternal fire are mentioned more than once outside of Revelation.
Upvote
0
And yet the fires are out. The worms are dead. This is really pulling a verse out of context. The fires accomplished their purposes and are now out. The punishment wasn't everlasting, but it was complete and efficient.flesh99 said:
The word here is "gehenna" meaning "Valley of Hinnom." Used literally, it referred to a trash heap that used to be a place of sacrificing children. Used figuratively, it referred to a condition of waste and destruction. We sometimes use "Hollywood" to refer to the place in California, but we also use it to mean glitz and glamour and facade. Same here. Sin leads to waste and destruction. And Jesus wants to save us from sin.
A metaphor, which must be interpreted carefully. But also apocalyptic. You have to know what you are reading.
Same as the Matthew passage above. This is "gehenna" being translated "hell." A bad choice for KJV translators, just like the nine times they put in 'Unicorn'.
It's late and I'll have to look this one up. Next time.
Are Sodom and Gemorrah still burning?? No. They burned until the punishment was complete. The word for "eternal" here is misunderstood. It can mean "final" or "complete". It's a poor translation. Also the word for hell here is "hades." This was not considered a place of punishment in the OT, but just a holding place for the dead. It took on the idea of punishment in the 300 years between the OT and NT.
Interestingly, Jesus uses the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus, a story that was present in the culture for at least 100 years, to make a point about charity. Jesus used this fictional story to make a theological point, but some have taken it quite literally. If so, it is problematic. You must also believe that hell has compartments and levels and you can see Abraham's bosom from there across a great chasm. All from misunderstanding what you are reading and rejecting scholarship.
I'll find my long post on this in the GA forum and post it for you.
Upvote
0
EdmundBlackadderTheThird
Proud member of the Loud Few
You needn't bother posting it for me. You will not change my mind. This is mentioned many times, these are not the only ones, just the quickest to dig up, and just as I expected the ones that couldn't be explained away are said to be metaphor. This is just an example of moral relativism creeping further into the chruch. We don't like what the Bible says so we explain it away, it quite frankly disgusts me. It is as bad as calling the story of Noah a myth or parable, theistic evolution, homosexual bishops, and many other hideous things happening to the body of Christ in the present day. The Bible is clear that there is a place of eternal torment, Jesus mentions it and Revelation confirms it there isn't much more to it really. You don't have to believe it just because it's in the Bible, all you have to believe is the Christ died for our sins and that He is the Son of God.
Upvote
0
Well, I'll post it anway just in case there are those who take seriously Paul's words to Timothy to study and show oneself approved. It is easier to believe what someone told you than studied for yourself. But some Christians are like the noble Bereans who search for themselves. Others like those at Thesselonica that did not.
---
I question hell on the basis of Scripture. The Bible never teaches the grossly distorted concept of an eternal Hell where people who don't believe the right set of propositions are tortured. Here's what I see in the Bible:
In the OT -- Sheol -- the grave-- this is the resting place for the dead. Righteous and unrighteous alike are held in the grave. That's about it. No fire, no torture, no nothing else. Just a holding place for the dead. When used literally, it is this holding place that is referred to. When used figuratively, it is the absence of life that is referred to. Can the grave praise you? No, there is no life there.
In the NT -- hades, the equivalent of sheol -- the grave -- still the same resting place when used literally. When used metaphorically, a place where there is no life. It is the absence of all things living and good.
Also in the NT- gehenna -- a reference to the Valley of Hinnom -- a place outside Jerusalem where there was once human sacrifice. It was a trash heap. A place where criminals bodies were burned. Literally, this place existed and was considered a big dump. Figuratively, this place represented death and destruction, the absence of life, a place of rot and decay. When Jesus compares the effects of sin to gehenna, he is giving a powerful object lesson. It is a vivid picture of how corruption causes death, decay, rot, and destruction.
Tartarus -- used once -- a reference to a Greek myth regarding a holding place for evil angels. Also hinted at in Jude and clearly evident in the book of Enoch, which is also mentioned in Jude. This is a prime of example of Paul using something the people were familiar with to make an analogy.
Anything in the Book of Revelation -- not to be used for doctrine. The Book of Revelation is an Apocalypse, a type of literature written by people under severe persecution. In Apocalypse, the time for redemption is over and it is time to see everything destroyed and a fresh start. The references and images in the text are to political figures and people living at the time the text was in circulation. The people reading the text knew exactly what these symbols stood for. To use this type of literature to create doctrine would be the equivalent of using nursery rhymes to create political positions. It is dangerous. Martin Luther, father of the protestant reformation, thought so and wanted the book left out of the Protestant Bible. He won in regards to the OT, so we don't have the apocryphal books, but he lost and Revelation, along with James and 2 of the letters, was left in.
The Bible can be twisted and distorted to teach a doctrine of hell. All it takes is a KJV translator reading the words sheol and hades and choosing the word "hell", already connected to other concepts of the afterlife via Dante, etc, and it can be made to appear that God has a fiery pit somewhere to punish Bin Laden in. And Mother Theresa, according to some. And Gandhi. Meanwhile, Ted Bundy enjoys the comfort of Heaven, having repented on his death bed, according to James Dobson.
---
I question hell on the basis of Scripture. The Bible never teaches the grossly distorted concept of an eternal Hell where people who don't believe the right set of propositions are tortured. Here's what I see in the Bible:
In the OT -- Sheol -- the grave-- this is the resting place for the dead. Righteous and unrighteous alike are held in the grave. That's about it. No fire, no torture, no nothing else. Just a holding place for the dead. When used literally, it is this holding place that is referred to. When used figuratively, it is the absence of life that is referred to. Can the grave praise you? No, there is no life there.
In the NT -- hades, the equivalent of sheol -- the grave -- still the same resting place when used literally. When used metaphorically, a place where there is no life. It is the absence of all things living and good.
Also in the NT- gehenna -- a reference to the Valley of Hinnom -- a place outside Jerusalem where there was once human sacrifice. It was a trash heap. A place where criminals bodies were burned. Literally, this place existed and was considered a big dump. Figuratively, this place represented death and destruction, the absence of life, a place of rot and decay. When Jesus compares the effects of sin to gehenna, he is giving a powerful object lesson. It is a vivid picture of how corruption causes death, decay, rot, and destruction.
Tartarus -- used once -- a reference to a Greek myth regarding a holding place for evil angels. Also hinted at in Jude and clearly evident in the book of Enoch, which is also mentioned in Jude. This is a prime of example of Paul using something the people were familiar with to make an analogy.
Anything in the Book of Revelation -- not to be used for doctrine. The Book of Revelation is an Apocalypse, a type of literature written by people under severe persecution. In Apocalypse, the time for redemption is over and it is time to see everything destroyed and a fresh start. The references and images in the text are to political figures and people living at the time the text was in circulation. The people reading the text knew exactly what these symbols stood for. To use this type of literature to create doctrine would be the equivalent of using nursery rhymes to create political positions. It is dangerous. Martin Luther, father of the protestant reformation, thought so and wanted the book left out of the Protestant Bible. He won in regards to the OT, so we don't have the apocryphal books, but he lost and Revelation, along with James and 2 of the letters, was left in.
The Bible can be twisted and distorted to teach a doctrine of hell. All it takes is a KJV translator reading the words sheol and hades and choosing the word "hell", already connected to other concepts of the afterlife via Dante, etc, and it can be made to appear that God has a fiery pit somewhere to punish Bin Laden in. And Mother Theresa, according to some. And Gandhi. Meanwhile, Ted Bundy enjoys the comfort of Heaven, having repented on his death bed, according to James Dobson.
Upvote
0
EdmundBlackadderTheThird
Proud member of the Loud Few
You will see that gehanna is not used here, it is aionios pur. So you are not correct on the wording being wrong in English. This is not the only place you have made a mistake in going to the original (or as close as we have) texts. You are also not correct on Gehenna in context. It is used to describe the place of future punishment according to Biblical scholars. This makes me tired, I would much rather deabte people that at least believe what he Bible says and do not try to explain it away.
Upvote
0
EdmundBlackadderTheThird
Proud member of the Loud Few
You essentially say that Revelation is useless for us as modern Christians and yet there is:
2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
Your main reason for ignoring Revelation is due to the fact it might lead to belief in something you espouse to be false. This is self serving at best. The whole of the Bible is necessary and it is all valid.
2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
Your main reason for ignoring Revelation is due to the fact it might lead to belief in something you espouse to be false. This is self serving at best. The whole of the Bible is necessary and it is all valid.
Upvote
0
Joshua Howard
Life, Liberty, And The Pursuit of Happiness
No offense intended, but I must say that my views regarding pastorfreud have just went down a good ways. You can make the Bible say anything you want if you go around analyzing it and looking for loopholes... If the Bible says there is a hell, then that's what it means. I stick to the Bible in it's litteral form, and I don't plan to stop anytime soon. Good luck in the discussion, flesh99, Very interesting.
Upvote
0
- Status
Similar threads
