Thoughts on God's sovereignty, omniscience and the laws of physics.

Mark Quayle said:
the logically self-contradictory constructions of man's supposed thoughts, words thrown carelessly together, doesn't have any relevance as to what God can and cannot do. That something might appear to mean something to us doesn't mean that it is a valid construct.

KevinT said:

I have read this sentence several times and I don't completely get your point. To break it down:

1. Man's thoughts might not actually be his thoughts. They are just "supposed thoughts."
2. Man's thoughts are logically self-contradictory. This is an assertion on your point, but you don't give evidence of this. If you are referring to my proposed theory, I have yet to be convinced that it is not logically self-consistent.
3. The supposed thoughts of man are carelessly thrown together. This description of "careless" implies an understanding of intent which would need to be justified.
4. And most importantly, I agree with this point, that mankind's opinions on the ability of God has no impact on God's actual ability. I fully agree! If He wants to include randomness into His universe, He can certainly do that!
5. Just because something seems a particular way to mankind, doesn't mean this reflects God's reality. I agree.

Click to expand...

1. Ha! Well, I guess I deserved that! I don't mean that thoughts aren't actually thoughts. I probably should have just said that what we think of doesn't necessarily constitute anything valid.
2. Well, no. I didn't mean that man's thoughts are necessarily logically self-contradictory; I meant to refer there only to those thoughts that ARE logically self-contradictory.
3. Still, I only meant to refer to those thoughts or statements or meanings that are built of words or concepts carelessly thrown together. I don't know that anything other than that, in the statement needs justified. I think it is self-evident that that happens. (Eg. Whole doctrines are built on the notion of causation by mere chance, which is a self-evidently self-contradictory. Then more not quite logical thoughts are added to it, such as the notion that God would not command what man is incapable of obeying. —But, there are other concepts or teachings so vague as should be obvious to any believer that they were carelessly—and purposely, at that—thrown together, such as the teaching that if a doctrine divides a congregation or separates one believer from another it is therefore false and/or to be avoided at all costs.)
4. But here, once again, you attribute substance to the human concept of randomness. And, again, it is not a question of what God can or cannot do, but whether randomness is a valid notion. Maybe I should say it like this: Why would God WANT to include Randomness into His universe?
5. I think it would behoove all of Christendom to recognize that reality itself is of God's making, and not something to which God must accommodate himself.


More later on the rest of your post, as time and alertness permit.

KevinT said:

Does mankind have free will? Does this impact God's sovereignty? Does the physical laws we find in the universe give any insight into this? I'd like to explore this here.

A child is struck and killed by a car. Was this in accordance with God's will?

The car struck her because the driver was drunk
The driver was drunk because he had become a slave to alcohol
He was a slave because his parents were not able to teach him avoid the trap of an addicting substance
His parents didn't do a great job because of actions of their parents
A chain of cause and effect can go all the way back to Adam and Eve.
Adam and Eve failed when the were tempted by the devil through the serpent, and Satan and cronies have been adding misery all along the way.
Lucifer turned into the evil devil because God made the universe such that rebellion was possible
So all this is a result of the way God made the universe.

So was the child's death in accordance with God's will?

Texts supporting free will.​

Notice that the texts below are appeals to mankind to do the right thing, to repent, to choose what is right. Source

• John 7:17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.
  
  
• 1 Cor 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.
  
  
• 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
  
  
• Gal 5:13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh ; rather, serve one another humbly in love.
  
  
• Joshua 24:15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.”
  
  
• Mark 8:34 Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.
  
  
• Rev 3:20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.
  
  
• Rom 13:2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
  
  
• Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”
  
  
• Isaiah 55:6-7 Seek the LORD while he may be found; call on him while he is near. Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.
  
  
• Deut 30:19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live...
  
  
• Ezekiel 18:30-32 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Texts against free will​

Notice that these texts show that regardless of what a man might want to do, God is all powerful and is able to override everything. Source

• Isaiah 46:9 I am God, and there is no other; ... I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, ‘My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that I will bring about; what I have planned, that I will do.
  
  
• Dan 4:35 All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: “What have you done?”
  
  
• Prov 16:4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. NOTE: see here for alternative translations.
  
  
• Psalms 33:10 The Lord foils the plans of the nations; he thwarts the purposes of the peoples. But the plans of the Lord stand firm forever, the purposes of his heart through all generations
  
  
• Eph 1:11 in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
  
  
• Rom 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
  
  
• John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him" John 6:44
  
  
• Rom 8:7-8 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

Does God control the Universe?​

One of my friends who follows a Reformed faith which often emphasizes the sovereignty of God, asked me once, "Do you think there is any part of the universe, any atom or any minute element, that is not under the control of God?" I have thought about this questions often. The implication is that if all the parts of the universe ARE under God's control, then they must be doing exactly what He wants them to be doing.

• What does it mean to be under the control of God? Is God actively thinking about every atom and choosing a unique and individualized path for it? Or is God massively parallel (to use a computer concept), and doing all the things all at once? Did He decide how things would work (i.e. establish physical laws), and then consistently stick to those principles? If those physical laws are used to kill someone with an exploding bomb, does that mean that God "did it?"
  
  
• If God wanted to, could He set up a universe that contains randomness? Classical physics from Isaac Newton envisioned a world comprised of atoms all zooming around with individual speeds, masses and directions. And if one could just know all the little parts, then once could predict how everything would play out, like a gigantic clockwork. Nothing can vary, and the entire future is already determined by the current state of the all the atoms. But with careful study of God's universe, we have actually found that there appears to be built in randomness at the level of the quantum. (More about this here.) If God did not want everything to be boringly predictive and instead created aspects of the laws of physics that are random and NOT predictable, would that mean that God is not in control? I would argue NO. As a computer programmer, I can create a tiny artificial world inside a computer. Think about a computer game that appears 3D with characters running around inside it. I can make that world operate by any rules I want, and if I choose to make some elements random and surprising even to me, I would argue that the computerized world is still under my control.
  
  
• Can there be a conflict exist in God's universe between His ultimate will (that all be in harmony), and His practical individualized will (e.g. striking the priest Uzzah dead for touching the ark to teach His people proper respect)? In my example of the exploding bomb above, God might have a will to establish consistency in the universe. So the laws of physics are always the same, all the time. He may also have a will to not have children killed by cruel bombs. So there is a conflict. He could quickly alter the laws of physics such that they work differently such that no child will be killed by a bomb. But how would that play out? Think about Cain and Abel from the book of Genesis. God could see that Cain was angry with his brother Abel and considering murder. God came down and personally tried to reason with Cain and head off the situation. But when Cain didn't cooperate, and instead used the laws of physics to kill Abel, God did NOT send an angel to grab Cain's hands, or suddenly change the neurons in Cain's brain so they thought differently, or alter the physical laws such that his murder failed. Why not when God clearly didn't want Abel killed? Because to do so would violate the His principle of autonomy for His children, taking away their free will and turning them into robots. Instead, God solved the problem a different way, though Christ.
  
  
• When Eve ate the forbidden fruit, was this in accordance with the will of God? Did God predestine this action? Was there a chance that she could have NOT eaten it? My belief is that God chose to create a universe wherein it was possible (though not desired) for one of His creations to turn against Him, and thus Lucifer became the devil or Satan. Was this in accordance to God's will? Yes and no. 'Yes' in that God maintained the rules of the universe that allowed for this horror -- just as the rules would later be used in the murder of Abel. But 'No' in that God did not want such things to come about. But once there is an enemy, it is possible for others such as Eve to be persuaded to join in distrustful rebellion. And that is exactly what happened. It was probably inevitable that this would happen on one of the home worlds of the Sons of God (Job 1:6). But was God happy about all the death that would be caused as a result? No. To repeat the text above Ezekiel 18 “...I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!"

Conclusions​

• God is Sovereign in that He has all the power. So my Reformed friends are correct in this.
• God has used His power to establish rules and principles in the universe. Like gravity that never changes.
• Sometimes His principles can conflict with each other.
• Just because God enables something to happen doesn't necessarily mean that He is happy about it.
• So God being "in control" doesn't mean God wants everything to be the way it is.
• I have never known anyone to be able to explain HOW free will works. But I think it is God's most precious creation, and He went to amazing lengths, even submitting to death on a cross, to show us how to submit our will to God and how it is the only way to be truly free from horrors of a wrong path.

I suspect this will be controversial. What do you all think?

Kevin

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I believe there is an Eternal Truth that is the Eternal power. It's a semantical argument as to whether ignorance of that truth constitutes a free will or an enslaved will.

KevinT said:

Adding randomness does not make me "subject" to an external force, and it would not to God either. And it doesn't limit God in any way. Doesn't make Him one bit "smaller".



Considering if God would be able to install randomness into His creation doesn't fit into the Merriam-Webster definition of "blasphemy."

KT

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Concerning blasphemy, my point is not that it is of itself blasphemous to suppose that God can install randomness into his creation. What is blasphemy is one or two of the things implied by that notion. The first is a notion implied by randomness itself —that something operates outside of God's purview. That's bad enough, but it also claims that this thing which operates from outside God's bailiwick impinges on God's creatures, to which influence God must somehow accommodate himself. This is basic denial of God's Omnipotence.

The question here is not whether God is more powerful than randomness, but whether God is Almighty. EVERYTHING is His bailiwick.

KevinT said:

Mark, I think we are both just circling back and repeating our positions.

Here is what I hear you saying

1. God is all powerful, which includes having all knowledge.
2. God cannot having something in His universe that He doesn't know, as that would be a limitation of his power.
3. What a human may consider as randomness, it not truly random in the sense of not being known or knowable to God. Because, again, as God knows everything, nothing can be unknown.

I don't agree with your position, but I want to make sure that I am properly hearing what you are saying.

At this point I would normally walk away from the conversation and agree to disagree with you. But this is a thread that I started and I feel I need to reply to responses to it. So as long as you keep posting, I'll probably keep answering. But I don't think either of us are covering new ground. I have made my best argument, and have failed to convince you. You have likewise made your best argument and have failed to convince me. So perhaps it would be best if we just trust God to be God and do what is right.

KT

Click to expand...

That is more or less sufficient, for now, but I would add, here, on point 3, just so you understand, that it is not just a matter of the fact that God knows absolutely everything, but that, (and his very nature, I think, is the reason what I'm about to say is true), he CAUSES absolutely everything. In fact, I contend that, logically, he INTENDED all things. That may seem unpalatable, to those who rather vaguely but adamantly appeal to his nature as that of Love, but to me it is inescapable logic.

And if he causes it, whether by long-chain through means, or immediately, it cannot be random. It cannot be uncaused, nor can it happen apart from specific intention. (And, again, and I hope to circle back to earlier posts you made in answer to me, this does not imply lack of choice nor responsibility of the creature.)

Clare73 said:

In regard to fallen man, would that be: Free will is the power to choose, without external force or constraint, what one prefers.

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Yes! That's the one.

Clare73 said:

As distinct from Adam who had the power to make all moral choices, including to be sinless, which power we do not have.

Feel free to clean it up for me.

Click to expand...

My only problem with that definition of freewill is that it allows all sorts of inferences. The one that jumps out at me is that it even allows for LIBERTARIAN free will, which claims choices are not a result of external influences. To me, that is simply illogical. And it says without external constraint, which I disagree with, as God always constrains one way or another. It also allows for randomness, which to me is also self-contradictory. So, my problem is not with what it does say, but what it does not disallow.


Mark Quayle said:
I've even heard the poetic but self-contradictory statement by someone who claims to Arminianism but strikes me as more a Pelagian, "There's nothing more sovereign that God can do, than to give up some of his sovereignty [to humanity]!" So the exact meaning or use of the word varies widely.

Clare73 said:

There's a contradiction of terms in there somewhere.

Click to expand...

Ya THINK???

Mark Quayle said:

Yes! That's the one.

My only problem with that definition of freewill is that it allows all sorts of inferences. The one that jumps out at me is that it even allows for LIBERTARIAN free will, which claims choices are not a result of external influences. To me, that is simply illogical. And it says without external constraint, which I disagree with, as God always constrains one way or another. It also allows for randomness, which to me is also self-contradictory. So, my problem is not with what it does say, but what it does not disallow.

Click to expand...

Does allowing for something necessarily mean that it can occur?

Mark Quayle said:

Mark Quayle said:
I've even heard the poetic but self-contradictory statement by someone who claims to Arminianism but strikes me as more a Pelagian, "There's nothing more sovereign that God can do, than to give up some of his sovereignty [to humanity]!" So the exact meaning or use of the word varies widely.

Ya THINK???

Click to expand...

KevinT said:

Does mankind have free will? Does this impact God's sovereignty? Does the physical laws we find in the universe give any insight into this? I'd like to explore this here.

A child is struck and killed by a car. Was this in accordance with God's will?

The car struck her because the driver was drunk
The driver was drunk because he had become a slave to alcohol
He was a slave because his parents were not able to teach him avoid the trap of an addicting substance
His parents didn't do a great job because of actions of their parents
A chain of cause and effect can go all the way back to Adam and Eve.
Adam and Eve failed when the were tempted by the devil through the serpent, and Satan and cronies have been adding misery all along the way.
Lucifer turned into the evil devil because God made the universe such that rebellion was possible
So all this is a result of the way God made the universe.

So was the child's death in accordance with God's will?

Texts supporting free will.​

Notice that the texts below are appeals to mankind to do the right thing, to repent, to choose what is right. Source

• John 7:17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.
  
  
• 1 Cor 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.
  
  
• 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
  
  
• Gal 5:13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh ; rather, serve one another humbly in love.
  
  
• Joshua 24:15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.”
  
  
• Mark 8:34 Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.
  
  
• Rev 3:20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.
  
  
• Rom 13:2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
  
  
• Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”
  
  
• Isaiah 55:6-7 Seek the LORD while he may be found; call on him while he is near. Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.
  
  
• Deut 30:19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live...
  
  
• Ezekiel 18:30-32 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Texts against free will​

Notice that these texts show that regardless of what a man might want to do, God is all powerful and is able to override everything. Source

• Isaiah 46:9 I am God, and there is no other; ... I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, ‘My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that I will bring about; what I have planned, that I will do.
  
  
• Dan 4:35 All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: “What have you done?”
  
  
• Prov 16:4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. NOTE: see here for alternative translations.
  
  
• Psalms 33:10 The Lord foils the plans of the nations; he thwarts the purposes of the peoples. But the plans of the Lord stand firm forever, the purposes of his heart through all generations
  
  
• Eph 1:11 in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
  
  
• Rom 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
  
  
• John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him" John 6:44
  
  
• Rom 8:7-8 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

Does God control the Universe?​

One of my friends who follows a Reformed faith which often emphasizes the sovereignty of God, asked me once, "Do you think there is any part of the universe, any atom or any minute element, that is not under the control of God?" I have thought about this questions often. The implication is that if all the parts of the universe ARE under God's control, then they must be doing exactly what He wants them to be doing.

• What does it mean to be under the control of God? Is God actively thinking about every atom and choosing a unique and individualized path for it? Or is God massively parallel (to use a computer concept), and doing all the things all at once? Did He decide how things would work (i.e. establish physical laws), and then consistently stick to those principles? If those physical laws are used to kill someone with an exploding bomb, does that mean that God "did it?"
  
  
• If God wanted to, could He set up a universe that contains randomness? Classical physics from Isaac Newton envisioned a world comprised of atoms all zooming around with individual speeds, masses and directions. And if one could just know all the little parts, then once could predict how everything would play out, like a gigantic clockwork. Nothing can vary, and the entire future is already determined by the current state of the all the atoms. But with careful study of God's universe, we have actually found that there appears to be built in randomness at the level of the quantum. (More about this here.) If God did not want everything to be boringly predictive and instead created aspects of the laws of physics that are random and NOT predictable, would that mean that God is not in control? I would argue NO. As a computer programmer, I can create a tiny artificial world inside a computer. Think about a computer game that appears 3D with characters running around inside it. I can make that world operate by any rules I want, and if I choose to make some elements random and surprising even to me, I would argue that the computerized world is still under my control.
  
  
• Can there be a conflict exist in God's universe between His ultimate will (that all be in harmony), and His practical individualized will (e.g. striking the priest Uzzah dead for touching the ark to teach His people proper respect)? In my example of the exploding bomb above, God might have a will to establish consistency in the universe. So the laws of physics are always the same, all the time. He may also have a will to not have children killed by cruel bombs. So there is a conflict. He could quickly alter the laws of physics such that they work differently such that no child will be killed by a bomb. But how would that play out? Think about Cain and Abel from the book of Genesis. God could see that Cain was angry with his brother Abel and considering murder. God came down and personally tried to reason with Cain and head off the situation. But when Cain didn't cooperate, and instead used the laws of physics to kill Abel, God did NOT send an angel to grab Cain's hands, or suddenly change the neurons in Cain's brain so they thought differently, or alter the physical laws such that his murder failed. Why not when God clearly didn't want Abel killed? Because to do so would violate the His principle of autonomy for His children, taking away their free will and turning them into robots. Instead, God solved the problem a different way, though Christ.
  
  
• When Eve ate the forbidden fruit, was this in accordance with the will of God? Did God predestine this action? Was there a chance that she could have NOT eaten it? My belief is that God chose to create a universe wherein it was possible (though not desired) for one of His creations to turn against Him, and thus Lucifer became the devil or Satan. Was this in accordance to God's will? Yes and no. 'Yes' in that God maintained the rules of the universe that allowed for this horror -- just as the rules would later be used in the murder of Abel. But 'No' in that God did not want such things to come about. But once there is an enemy, it is possible for others such as Eve to be persuaded to join in distrustful rebellion. And that is exactly what happened. It was probably inevitable that this would happen on one of the home worlds of the Sons of God (Job 1:6). But was God happy about all the death that would be caused as a result? No. To repeat the text above Ezekiel 18 “...I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!"

Conclusions​

• God is Sovereign in that He has all the power. So my Reformed friends are correct in this.
• God has used His power to establish rules and principles in the universe. Like gravity that never changes.
• Sometimes His principles can conflict with each other.
• Just because God enables something to happen doesn't necessarily mean that He is happy about it.
• So God being "in control" doesn't mean God wants everything to be the way it is.
• I have never known anyone to be able to explain HOW free will works. But I think it is God's most precious creation, and He went to amazing lengths, even submitting to death on a cross, to show us how to submit our will to God and how it is the only way to be truly free from horrors of a wrong path.

I suspect this will be controversial. What do you all think?

Kevin

Click to expand...

Well that’s one way to interpret those verses but how does that interpretation stand up to other scriptures?

Passages that support free will



“See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the Lord your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it. But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them, I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it. I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,”

‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30‬:‭15‬-‭19‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬





“I will destine you for the sword, And all of you will bow down to the slaughter. Because I called, but you did not answer; I spoke, but you did not hear. And you did evil in My sight And chose that in which I did not delight.””

‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭65‬:‭12‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬



“They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, and it did not come into My mind.”

‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭7‬:‭31‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.”

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:5-6‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“But as for Israel He says, " ALL THE DAY LONG I HAVE STRETCHED OUT MY HANDS TO A DISOBEDIENT AND OBSTINATE PEOPLE."”

‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:21‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5‬:‭4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’ ””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13‬:‭6‬-‭9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2‬:‭4‬-‭5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2‬:‭12‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

I can post a lot more examples that refute the idea that God controls everything.

KevinT said:

Any support of this is appreciated.
KT

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Nah I think owe you an apology, i misunderstood your position because I didn’t have time to read the entire post. Sorry about that friend.

BNR32FAN said:

Well that’s one way to interpret those verses but how does that interpretation stand up to other scriptures?
Passages that support free will

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Yes, fallen man has the power to choose what he prefers.
However, what he prefers is self over God, and that is what he will freely choose until he is born again and given a new disposition which prefers God instead.

BNR32FAN said:

“See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the Lord your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it. But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them, I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it. I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30‬:‭15‬-‭19‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
“I will destine you for the sword, And all of you will bow down to the slaughter. Because I called, but you did not answer; I spoke, but you did not hear. And you did evil in My sight And chose that in which I did not delight.””
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭65‬:‭12‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
“They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, and it did not come into My mind.”

‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭7‬:‭31‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.”

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:5-6‬ ‭NASB‬‬
“But as for Israel He says, " ALL THE DAY LONG I HAVE STRETCHED OUT MY HANDS TO A DISOBEDIENT AND OBSTINATE PEOPLE."”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:21‬ ‭NASB‬‬
“You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5‬:‭4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
“And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’ ””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13‬:‭6‬-‭9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,”

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‭‭Romans‬ ‭2‬:‭4‬-‭5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
“If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2‬:‭12‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
I can post a lot more examples that refute the idea that God controls everything.

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See post #14.

Clare73 said:

Yes, fallen man has the power to choose what he prefers.
However, what he prefers is self over God, and that is what he will freely choose until he is born again and given a new disposition which prefers God instead.

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The problem with this idea is that no one is born again until they repent and believe.

Clare73 said:

Yes, fallen man has the power to choose what he prefers.
However, what he prefers is self over God, and that is what he will freely choose until he is born again and given a new disposition which prefers God instead.


See post #14.

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Nah post 14 is too long and covers too many topics. Why don’t you just make your point? Is God’s kindness and patience leading them to repentance or not?

BNR32FAN said:

The problem with this idea is that no one is born again until they repent and believe.

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And the problem with that is that spiritually dead men can do nothing spiritual, they can't even understand what those things mean (see) (Jn 3:3-8), for they are foolishness to them (1 Co 2:14), so there is absolutely no repentance and belief without the sovereign new birth by the Holy Spirit.

Jn 3:3-8 is the foundation principle regarding faith and eternal life.
All Scripture relating thereto must be understood in terms of that principle.

BNR32FAN said:

Nah post 14 is too long and covers too many topics. Why don’t you just make your point? Is God’s kindness and patience leading them to repentance or not?

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Nah see post #91.

Clare73 said:

And the problem with that is that spiritually dead men can do nothing spiritual, they can't even understand what those things mean (see) (Jn 3:3-8), for they are foolishness to them (1 Co 2:14), so there is absolutely no repentance and belief without the sovereign new birth by the Holy Spirit.

Jn 3:3-8 is the foundation principle regarding faith and eternal life.
All Scripture relating thereto must be understood in terms of that principle.

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Yeah 1 Corinthians 2:16 and as I’ve pointed out to you numerous times read the next 5 verses to understand who Paul was writing to and why.

BNR32FAN said:

Yeah 1 Corinthians 2:16 and as I’ve pointed out to you numerous times read the next 5 verses to understand who Paul was writing to and why.

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In 1 Co 2:14, Paul is referring to "the man without the Spirit," the unregenerate, not born again, who is unable to understand (see) spiritual things (Jn 3:3-8) and, therefore, believe.

It is only the one born again who is "the spiritual man" (1 Co 2:14-15).

In 1 Co 2:16, Paul is addressing "brothers," the born again, for even where there is spiritual life (new birth) there are remainders of carnal affections.

Clare73 said:

Nah see post #91.

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A simple yes or no would’ve answered my question faster than referring me to another post.

Clare73 said:

In 1 Co 2:14, Paul is referring to "the man without the Spirit," the unregenerate, not born again, who is unable to understand (see) spiritual things (Jn 3:3-8) and, therefore, believe.

It is only the one born again who is "the spiritual man" (1 Co 2:14-15).

In 1 Co 2:16, Paul is addressing "brothers," the born again, for even where there is spiritual life (new birth) there are remainders of carnal affections.

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Lol you just said that man has to be regenerated before he can believe and quoted 1 Corinthians 2:16. So you’re saying that we have to receive the Holy Spirit BEFORE we believe. The scriptures say the exact opposite and there’s not a single case recorded anywhere in the scriptures where anyone received the Holy Spirit before they believed.

The “natural man” is someone who sets his mind on the flesh instead of the Spirit. They are people who turn away from God. Anyone can set their mind on the Spirit by humbling themselves and turning to God.

The apostles believed BEFORE they received the Holy Spirit. In Acts 19 the 12 men that Paul baptized and laid hands on believed BEFORE they received the Holy Spirit. In Acts 8 the people in Samaria believed before they received the Holy Spirit.

So how can you say that we must receive the Holy Spirit BEFORE we can believe? Let me guess you’re going to refer me to another post, or are you going to actually answer the question?

BNR32FAN said:

A simple yes or no would’ve answered my question faster than referring me to another post.

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Have you stopped beating your friend?
A simple yes or no will answer my question.

Answer to your question: they are leading the elect to repentance.