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Who are you to say what I am in compliance with? I thought you were preaching grace.
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Are you remotely saying that Jesus' example is a command for us? If this is the case you're and every one else isn't in compliance. Furthermore it isn't possible.
Which brings to mind this threadWho are you to say what I am in compliance with? I thought you were preaching grace.
The idea of cheap grace, I believe, comes from The Cost of Discipleship by Dietrich Bonhoeffer. He said:
"Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, (it is) baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession, absolution without personal confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate."
"Costly grace is the treasure hidden in the field; for the sake of it a man will gladly go and sell all that he has. It is the pearl of great price to buy which the merchant will sell all his goods. It is the kingly rule of Christ, for whose sake of one will pluck out the eye which causes him to stumble; it is the call of Jesus Christ at which the disciple leaves his nets and follows him.
Costly grace is the gospel which must be sought again and again, the gift which must be asked for, the door at which a man must knock.
Such grace is costly because it calls us to follow, and it is grace because it calls us to follow Jesus Christ. It is costly because it costs a man his life, and it is grace because it gives a man the only true life. It is costly because it condemns sin, and grace because it justifies the sinner. Above all, it is costly because it cost God the life of his Son: "ye were bought at a price," and and what has cost God much cannot be cheap for us. Above all, it is grace because God did not reckon his Son too dear a price to pay for our life, but delivered him up for us. . .
. . . Grace is costly because it compels a man to submit to the yoke of Christ and follow him; it is grace because Jesus says: "my yoke is easy and my burden light."
There is only one passage that I can think of where Paul exhorts anyone to follow the law. It is Eph 6 on children obeying their parents. This is to children and not the whole general group called Christians.I haven't been on this Forum long, but I grew up within the Christian community, at the beginning, in the 70s and coming back to 'debates raging' here on CF, it's the same ole' same ole, to my mind:
There are a few who try to sort out what we come across that seems contradictory in the various books, especially if it's what Jesus said vs. what, say, Paul wrote in his epistles. And we're really trying to live Jesus' Good News, and where Paul's example and words, instructions seem to support what Jesus said, we're cool. Then there are times when Paul seems to say something that is at odds with the very core of Jesus's teachings or 'life as example' like Paul exhorting us to obey the law (you probably know the passages about obey the law, you have nothing to fear if you're doing right (gist), vs. Jesus saying, 'Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's and unto God the things that are God's," and He told us to 'Love God with all our heart, mind, soul, strength' and 'Our neighbor as ourselves', and also, that He came to 'fulfill' (fill up' the Law, not to do away with it... And further, He had to ask for a coin, having none of his own, to make a point about what Caesar gets...
It goes on and on...
But what I pray (ask, listen to), and what I read, again and again, through Jesus' actions; what angered Him; when He cried, and how He died, rose again, and so on... When I humbly come to God and stuttering, often I stutter, Please help me live, today, what you taught; please help me to obey God, today; please help me be an active member, to 'be' a member of your Body here on Earth, today...
Well, all debate falls away as what Blaise Pascal called 'diversion'.
I mean that the Fruits of the Spirit are not at odds with what Jesus taught; they are evidence of our obedience; the outcome of our Regeneration; what we will be known by...
And so when I pray 'please give me what I need, and You, God, know what that is...' I just don't have any problem trying to study this passage 'vs' that one, or Jesus 'vs' Paul, or the 'will' to get into debates with anyone at all:
I bake from scratch for my husband; I make a CD list to burn gospel songs for my brothers and sisters in Christ'; I make sure the elderly neighbor knows I still have his key (for when he locks himself out again); I feel tired and remind myself, 'go slow, it's OK, no race' when I feel that I may not 'get enough done' (enough by whose standards? If I pray, and I did, and God and I have our wills aligned, as I can tell is so by the peace I feel when I am typing up a recipe, bringing medicine to a neighbor, taking a brief walk before coming back home to continue doing the next thing that needs doing...',
well, I don't fall for the 'debate' trap, you know, 'oh, that Paul, he was always trying to put women down', or 'Jesus didn't expect us to live the Sermon on the Mount NOW, that's for after...'
It doesn't matter, the list is endless, the ways of diversion limited only by individual (and group) imagination.
***
I'm reading Frank Sheed's Theology for Beginners, and I like his 'Will, Intellect, Imagination' and how they interplay in our lives:
We are each limited not only by how much will, intellect and imagination we have but to what end we put them to use, rather than allowing them to push us:
Gentleness
Love
Generosity
Joy
Self-discipline
And on and on, I grow, as I go to Jesus' Good News, to my Heavenly Father with Humility, into the Bible looking not to avoid obeying but what Jesus told me obeying God looked like, and He told us to 'pick up our cross and follow Him' and all over the Gospels, Jesus is DOING and praying and meditating and being tempted and SERVING and OBEYING his Abba:
Why, Jesus, asked, do you call me good? Only my Heavenly Father is good.
***
This day is almost over, and regardless of what translation I go to, the passage in Matthew reads 'enough' the same: The trouble I got into today was sufficient for this day.'
I'm grateful that today, and this is the only day Jesus told me to be concerned with: This day?
I did my best to be doing the sorts of things I would not feel ashamed of if today were the day of Jesus' return. I 'watched', and it's been a full and good kind of tiring day.
Tomorrow?
Jesus told me not to worry about tomorrow, so here is a song whose 'sound' comes from my hillbilly roots, and whose meaning comes right from Jesus' Sermon on the Mount, and Paul echoes it in 1 Corinthians chapter 13, the whole chapter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Om69zHwWO1Y
~ Carolyn
Did Paul preach anything concerning the future destruction of OC Jerusalem?
Anyone ever notice the time period that the Romans encompassed Jerusalem in ad70? Pretty ironic I would think....
[edit to add: did Paul also prophecy the pending destruction of Jerusalem?
The Temple in Jerusalem was still standing while he was preaching the Gospel of Jesus.....]
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
The Destruction Of JERUSALEM
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I've got no idea what you're talking about. That wasn't addressed to you.Who are you to say what I am in compliance with? I thought you were preaching grace.
your witness thing, for the most part, were about legal preceeedings, under the law, accusations, etc, just like in our courts, hence your constant usage of it is really not working here..
WHO WITNESSED ALL THE THINGS THAT MOSES SPOKE OF IN GENESIS?!
BEFORE HIS OWN MINISTRY, WAS HE THERE FOR THE FLOOD, ADAM AND EVE, OR WITH ABRAHAM, OR..OR..?
Retirement will be warmer than tropical paradise.None of these verses talk about keeping them perfectly. I contend that keeping them diligently is keeping them.
true..
all....
Deut 27:26 Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.
Exodus 24:3 Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD and all the rules. And all the people answered with one voice and said, All the words that the LORD has spoken we will do.
Leviticus 26:15
if you spurn my statutes, and if your soul abhors my rules, so that you will not do all my commandments, but break my covenant,
Josh 1:8 This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it.
Deut 28:15 But if you will not obey the voice of the Lord your God or be careful to do all his commandments and his statutes that I command you today, then all these curses shall come upon you and overtake you.
Deut 28:58 If you are not careful to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that you may fear this glorious and awesome name, the Lord your God,
Neh 10:29 join with their brothers, their nobles, and enter into a curse and an oath to walk in God's Law that was given by Moses the servant of God, and to observe and do all the commandments of the Lord our Lord and his rules and his statutes.
Ex 24:7 Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it in the hearing of the people. And they said, All that the Lord has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient.
ok to break the cov?
Leviticus 26:15
if you spurn my statutes, and if your soul abhors my rules, so that you will not do all my commandments, but break my covenant,
..sounds like perfection...
Gets good marks in my book.It really would help to understand what the Sinai covenant says about itself.
Deut 6: ... And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day.
And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.
That's one choice. Observe the Law perfectly, and it is your righteousness.
The other choice is this.
Phil. 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Like Paul, I would rather not have mine own righteousness which is of the law, but would rather be found in Him though the faith of Christ, of God by faith.
As Habbakuk said, the just shall live by faith.
Peter endorsed Paul in writing. But that isn't good enough for you. The Council at Jerusalem sent Paul with their letter bearing what Paul preached. This was also in writing. And there were more than two doing so at the Council.I accept Luke as a second-hand witness. However, the Scriptural requirement demands at least two or three first hand witnesses.
Finally, we do not have multiple corroborating first-hand witnesses to many of Paul's unique doctrines.
Which brings to mind this thread
http://www.christianforums.com/t7518847/
Extravegant Grace versus Cheap Grace
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I've got no idea what you're talking about. That wasn't addressed to you.
On the other hand if we're doing as Jesus did we're in perfect compliance with the law in every aspect. Netzaim on the other hand is pushing compliance with the law. He's using Jesus as proof we're so obligated. This isn't what Jesus taught.
Just the more notable onesYou are the king of old threads LLOJ!
I would say that the entire premise of 'extravagant' or 'cheap' grace is faulty. If it ain't free, it ain't grace. ...it's just another transaction.
Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus
Anyone ever notice the time period that the Romans encompassed Jerusalem in ad70? Pretty ironic I would think....
[edit to add: did Paul also prophecy the pending destruction of Jerusalem?
The Temple in Jerusalem was still standing while he was preaching the Gospel of Jesus.....]
I believe we should be as diligent as possible to the commandments we are appointed to follow, and those that we can follow, to the best of our ability.Diligent to observe all the Law and commands and statutes. And when they/you can't, and that happens daily, there's the sacrificial system to "restore" your next attempt. And the once a year atonement observance, except no one is able to do that since 70ad.
Diligent as you may be, all sin and come short of the glory of God.
The question is what now is the solution to failed diligence? Keep trying to be diligent? Keep seeking your own righteousness that comes from the law (Deut. 6)?
Or like Paul and millions more will you seek to be found in Christ and in His righteousness that comes from grace by faith (NT)?
Some versions use "followers"........1Cor 11:1 "Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ."
That's not good, but there are enough protestants that don't think this way. There are even very legalistic protestants.I believe we should be as diligent as possible to the commandments we are appointed to follow, and those that we can follow, to the best of our ability.
Whereas mainstream Protestant Christianity would say "don't worry about the commandments at all, as long as you believe".
I believe we should be as diligent as possible to the commandments we are appointed to follow, and those that we can follow, to the best of our ability.
Whereas mainstream Protestant Christianity would say "don't worry about the commandments at all, as long as you believe".
Now, regarding your example - performing the yearly Yom Kippur atonement sacrifice - this is mostly the responsibility and duty of the High Priest. Since I am not the High Priest, I do not have to worry about it, except for the part where it says I must afflict my soul (e.g. fast) and not do any work (Lev 16:29). That part I can do diligently. Mainstream Protestant Christianity would not even consider it at all.
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