Those unions watching out for their workers...

Thekla · Nov 30, 2012

MachZer0 said:
By our liberal friends, yes. Of course, those are the same friends who refuse to recognize that companies using non-union labor like Little Debbie are still able to compete

I'd hardly call the economic press, and all business analysts "liberal".

If you read the several articles linked in this thread, the difference was mismanagement, unmanageable debt (a la the Hedge Funds and PE investors), mistakes made at the first bankruptcy, failure to use loans and wage-savings (negotiated with the Unions) for infrastructure upgrades, shrinking market share, rising commodity prices, etc.

That's all management "stuff".

Mgmt. got paid for not doing its job.

kermit · Nov 30, 2012

MachZer0 said:
The liquidation is expected to take at least a year so you downplaying the management needs doesn't seem to hold much water. Perhaps you can detail for us what the company needs to do in that year.

A gradual winding down of all departments and operations with the exception of the finance department. That department will actually be busier which is why I said to keep the CFO around. But there really no operation decisions to be made so sack the COO. There's really no IT decsions to me made so sack the CIO. There's no long-term company decsions to me made so sack the CEO.

Put the CFO in charge the company during liquidation and save a few million. That way the company can have more money to pay it's obligations.

MachZer0 · Nov 30, 2012

whatbogsends said:
What exactly, do you think management is there for, if not to adjust product lines to meet the needs of the market? Your head is buried deeply in....the sand, if you can't even assign management one of their most obvious jobs.

Even more bizarre is that despite you making the claim that management isn't responsible for adjusting to market changes, you still think their exorbitant salaries are justified, although you have yet to cite any particular skill that justifies these salaries, and clearly, increased responsibility or "skin in the game" isn't the basis, as they profit when the company fails, and apparently have bear no responsibility of the success or failure of the company.

In fact, if the company's failure rests on the workers' shoulders, you have again demonstrated that they are even more underpaid, as the workers, and not management, are solely responsible for a company's success or failure - at least according to you.

kermit said:
Adapting the company to a changing market is exactly what management is responsible for.

I really want to know what you think management is responsible for. After reading through this thread it appears that you beleive they have not responsibilities which makes me wonder how you self-justify their larger salaries.

I'm still waiting for someone to tell us what adjustments Hostess could have made? Tofu cupcakes maybe?

Thekla · Nov 30, 2012

MachZer0 said:
I'm still waiting for someone to tell us what adjustments Hostess could have made? Tofu cupcakes maybe?

Iirc, Little Debbie reduced snack size.

Introducing new product lines (more in line with consumer demand).

As I said before, Hostess had a lousy reputation in the Grocery store sector - they were considered unreliable. That's also a mgmt. issue.

They did publish a "Twinkie Cookbook" - a pretty lame attempt at expanding market share and revitalizing the brand, imo.

kermit · Nov 30, 2012

MachZer0 said:
I'm still waiting for someone to tell us what adjustments Hostess could have made? Tofu cupcakes maybe?

So because a bunch of people who are not experts in the junk food industry don't know exactly what changes could have saved Hostess such a solution doesn't exist?

MachZer0 · Nov 30, 2012

Thekla said:
Introducing new product lines (more in line with consumer demand).

Such as?

MachZer0 · Nov 30, 2012

kermit said:
So because a bunch of people who are not experts in the junk food industry don't know exactly what changes could have saved Hostess such a solution doesn't exist?

In other words, you can tell us that Hostess should have changed but can't tell us how they should have changed. That's what I thought. Kind of like armchair quarterbacking.

whatbogsends · Nov 30, 2012

MachZer0 said:
I'm still waiting for someone to tell us what adjustments Hostess could have made? Tofu cupcakes maybe?

Maybe if i was actually hired as management, i would do the activities that they should have been doing. You know, market research, adjusting product lines to accommodate the needs of the market. But, as an outside observer, all i will say is: it's plain to see that they failed to do their jobs.

Moreover, as they failed to do their jobs, they got rewarded for it, and you support them getting rewarded for it.

Apparently for you, Mach:

company in bankruptcy = management doing their jobs just fine

I do like the fact that you keep on arguing this Mach, even though it's clear for all to see that your argument has no teeth. A true right wing ideologue.

kermit · Nov 30, 2012

MachZer0 said:
Such as?

So now it's Thekla's job to be the entire NPD department of Hostess?

MachZer0 · Nov 30, 2012

whatbogsends said:
Maybe if i was actually hired as management, i would do the activities that they should have been doing. You know, market research, adjusting product lines to accommodate the needs of the market. But, as an outside observer, all i will say is: it's plain to see that they failed to do their jobs.

Moreover, as they failed to do their jobs, they got rewarded for it, and you support them getting rewarded for it.

Apparently for you, Mach:

company in bankruptcy = management doing their jobs just fine

I do like the fact that you keep on arguing this Mach, even though it's clear for all to see that your argument has no teeth. A true right wing ideologue.

More armchair quarterbacking?

MachZer0 · Nov 30, 2012

kermit said:
So now it's Thekla's job to be the entire NPD department of Hostess?

If you're going to say that someone didn't do their job right, it seems you would know what "doing their jobs right" would look like.

whatbogsends · Nov 30, 2012

kermit said:
So because a bunch of people who are not experts in the junk food industry don't know exactly what changes could have saved Hostess such a solution doesn't exist?

Exactly. The executives who make millions of dollars to specifically do this are justified in being unable to find a solution because a handful of people on a forum who have other jobs and aren't paid at all to do this don't have a solution ready to be presented.
/conservative logic :o

kermit · Nov 30, 2012

MachZer0 said:
In other words, you can tell us that Hostess should have changed but can't tell us how they should have changed. That's what I thought. Kind of like armchair quarterbacking.

Fan A: The team lost becuase they made some bad plays.
Fan B: What plays should they have made?
Fan A: Well I don't know exactly, but that doesn't mean they didn't have some bad plays.
Fan B: See it's really the fault of the support staff that they lost.
Fan A: That's ridicuous. They don't play the game.
Fan B: Well the team isn't repsonsibile for the playing of the other team or the playing conditions so they can't be blamed.
Fan A: That's exactly what the team is resonsible for.
Fan B: You can't name one play that they should have done so you can't blame the team for the loss.

TeddyReceptus · Nov 30, 2012

MachZer0 said:
OK, if you believe you have better knowledge of how Hostess could have remained solvent, tell us what you would have done as management

I never claimed that superior knowledge. But then I don't claim that skill set and I don't get paid that kind of money precisely because OTHER PEOPLE PRESUMABLY DO CLAIM THAT SKILL SET.

I work on a project in industry. I am set goals to develop a product that meets customer needs. I can't tell you how many times I've been to a customer site in England and they said "We want X, but we don't really care about Y" and then go to a customer site in Australia only to have them say "We reallyl value Y and don't care about X"

The job of management and marketing is to know at least somewhat what a customer wants. We give them big pay rates precisely for this.

I'm just a chemist. So when I'm out in the field and I've got a "fix" for a problem with my coating that I'm pleased as punch with, imagine how frustrated I am to find out that this customer over here doesn't give a hang about it.

This is reality. THIS is what consumer facing industry faces every day.

I am like the union baker. I'm told what to bake. The thing I'm told to bake is based on "market research".

I'm curious if you've never been in a business meeting where decisions are made on what projects to fund and what "engineering metrics" are to be met.

Becuase I guarantee you it is a very detailed process.

Facepalm all you like, but if you don't know how consumer facing businesses actually function your "defense" of management is just about value-less.

questftbest · Nov 30, 2012

The union fat cat bosses are rolling in dough while the workers get fired.

kermit · Nov 30, 2012

MachZer0 said:
If you're going to say that someone didn't do their job right, it seems you would know what "doing their jobs right" would look like.

I know exactly what it looks like. It looks like a company that it still in business.

MachZer0 · Nov 30, 2012

TeddyReceptus said:
I never claimed that superior knowledge. But then I don't claim that skill set and I don't get paid that kind of money precisely because OTHER PEOPLE PRESUMABLY DO CLAIM THAT SKILL SET.

I work on a project in industry. I am set goals to develop a product that meets customer needs. I can't tell you how many times I've been to a customer site in England and they said "We want X, but we don't really care about Y" and then go to a customer site in Australia only to have them say "We reallyl value Y and don't care about X"

The job of management and marketing is to know at least somewhat what a customer wants. We give them big pay rates precisely for this.

I'm just a chemist. So when I'm out in the field and I've got a "fix" for a problem with my coating that I'm pleased as punch with, imagine how frustrated I am to find out that this customer over here doesn't give a hang about it.

This is reality. THIS is what consumer facing industry faces every day.

I am like the union baker. I'm told what to bake. The thing I'm told to bake is based on "market research".

I'm curious if you've never been in a business meeting where decisions are made on what projects to fund and what "engineering metrics" are to be met.

Becuase I guarantee you it is a very detailed process.

Facepalm all you like, but if you don't know how consumer facing businesses actually function your "defense" of management is just about value-less.

So no suggestions for what Hostess could have done. Got it.

Thekla · Nov 30, 2012

MachZer0 said:
Such as?

Have you actually read any of the articles about Hostess linked in this thread, or from other sources that provide an analysis ?

The criticism about not introducing new product lines came from the business press ...

TeddyReceptus · Nov 30, 2012

MachZer0 said:
More armchair quarterbacking?

I'd say he just about nailed your posts, though!

You are defending the indefensible. If your defenses were moderated with even a modicum of "common sense" or appreciation of how industry works it might ring a bit less hollow.

MachZer0 · Nov 30, 2012

MachZer0 said:
If you're going to say that someone didn't do their job right, it seems you would know what "doing their jobs right" would look like.

kermit said:
I know exactly what it looks like. It looks like a company that it still in business.

So tell us what they should have done to stay in business

Those unions watching out for their workers...

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