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This thread was suggested to me by an SDA

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cruztacean

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...so I'm taking him up on it.

I posted this on another thread Which got this response:
I'm guessing that the typical answer will be, "Well, no, they're not lost because they didn't know any better."

So I think the real question is, what about people like me who have heard every argument there is and just don't believe it to be true? I guess I can prepare to be obliterated, right?

Although I was raised in another denomination, I was a Seventh-day Adventist from 1983 to 1992; that's nearly a decade of my adult life. So I don't think I'm "ill-informed;" I'm just going by what I personally saw and heard. I wanted to call this the "See if you can win me back to the church" thread, but I thought it would be too inflammatory and I doubt any of you can.

My complaint with the church goes far beyond the Sabbath, however, and if you'd like me to list them all specifically I can. It would just be too long for one post. There is nothing I would like better than to have a thoughtful dialogue with people who can answer questions about my experience. If you promise not to flame me for even bringing it up, I'll promise not to flame you.
 
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OntheDL

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Hi,

Most people go to the church don't know very well the bible. Same case with SDAs, many of them don't know what they believe. I don't know what exactly transpired so I can't comment on the conversation.

About the sabbath-sunday issue...the bible is very clear: anyone who knowingly break the commandments of God are not saved or have not been born again yet.

If someone sins ignorantly, the blood of christ covers it. If someone knows the truth but by choice not to follow God, then it's an act of rebellion. The same goes for those who reject by ignoring.

It doesn't mean they are lost forever. But they have to repent and turn from their own ways before they are called to judgment.
 
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moicherie

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Sorry for your experience cruz. Our relationship with God gets us to heaven not what we know or don't know the sooner we realise that the better. Some Adventists get more and more like the NT Pharisees every Sabbath.
I really believe God takes some people away from this kind of Adventist mindset- yes the Adventist church to save them cos some of us are cold blooded stumbling blocks.
 
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OntheDL

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If we know the good to do, but do it not, then we don't have a good relationship with God. Right?
 
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StormyOne

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OntheDL said:
If we know the good to do, but do it not, then we don't have a good relationship with God. Right?
Click to expand...
That would be God's call... too many examples in the bible of people who knew what was right and did the opposite... David, Samson, Moses, Paul... yet they had a relationship with God and He continued to work in their lives in spite of their shortcomings....

The reality is as long as its not willful rebellion, God will cover you with his grace. The stories of the lost coin, and lost sheep tell us that... Even the story of of the prodical's son, we often emphasize the son's rebellion, but it is the attitude of the father that we need to focus on... After all that wrongdoing, the son was accepted back and restored......

So as I said, it is God's call, and I am thankful for that cause humans are quick to throw folks into hell...
 
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OntheDL

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Yeah, we can be thankful God's mercyful and longsuffering. And He is always waiting for His people to come back.

The stories of Saul and David are perfect examples. God called both of them to repent. Saul did not and was lost. Had David not repented he too would have been lost after the horrible sins he committed.

While it causes God great deal of pain those that are lost, He is just that He does not force salvation onto us.

Just like in marriage, when we do not do the right thing, the relationship suffers.
 
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Cliff2

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I hope you feel free to discus your concerns about the Adventist Church without being torn apart.

It would be a great shame to us if that even partly happened.

So go ahead and see how we go. You may well be surprised to see how loving your family is.

Blessings
 
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cruztacean

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Thanks for the responses so far. I'll probably sit on it a day or two before I start addressing concerns because I'm having a bad day and I've already had some trouble controlling my emotions. And I really don't want to stick my virtual foot in my mouth just because I can't control myself very well.

I have more trouble over SDA people than SDA doctrine, although I do have trouble with the doctrine also. Some of it I've already posted in another thread. But I'll wait until I can behave myself before I go into details.
 
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YeshuamySalvation

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ThreeAM

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We cannot be saved by our own works. This is Number ten of the 28 doctrines of the SDA church. The SDA church does not teach salvation by works.

http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html

10. The Experience of Salvation:
In infinite love and mercy God made Christ, who knew no sin, to be sin for us, so that in Him we might be made the righteousness of God. Led by the Holy Spirit we sense our need, acknowledge our sinfulness, repent of our transgressions, and exercise faith in Jesus as Lord and Christ, as Substitute and Example. This faith which receives salvation comes through the divine power of the Word and is the gift of God's grace. Through Christ we are justified, adopted as God's sons and daughters, and delivered from the lordship of sin. Through the Spirit we are born again and sanctified; the Spirit renews our minds, writes God's law of love in our hearts, and we are given the power to live a holy life. Abiding in Him we become partakers of the divine nature and have the assurance of salvation now and in the judgment. (2 Cor. 5:17-21; John 3:16; Gal. 1:4; 4:4-7; Titus 3:3-7; John 16:8; Gal. 3:13, 14; 1 Peter 2:21, 22; Rom. 10:17; Luke 17:5; Mark 9:23, 24; Eph. 2:5-10; Rom. 3:21-26; Col. 1:13, 14; Rom. 8:14-17; Gal. 3:26; John 3:3-8; 1 Peter 1:23; Rom. 12:2; Heb. 8:7-12; Eze. 36:25-27; 2 Peter 1:3, 4; Rom. 8:1-4; 5:6-10.)

Here are some scriptures that apply.

 
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YeshuamySalvation

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You're going to tell me this, a baptised memeber of a Traditional Adventist Church, who has studied all of the doctrines? The Traditional Adventist Church does teach that one can prove to be righteous by how well he preforms, they do believe in a works based salvation.. This may be harsh, but most of them don't believe Yeshua is enough, they believe they have to work work & work to be found worthy..
 
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cruztacean

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ThreeAM said:
We cannot be saved by our own works. This is Number ten of the 28 doctrines of the SDA church. The SDA church does not teach salvation by works.
Click to expand...
There is sometimes a difference between what is taught in the official church literature, and what the typical Adventist believes, teaches, and preaches. Official church literature teaches that salvation is by grace alone. Typical Adventists act as if you are lost if you violate one minute of the Sabbath. These are the ones who have sunset charts in their homes and count down, "OK, sabbath ends in three seconds.... two.... one.... Good, now we can go to the store." Legalism. Nothing but.

Official church literature teaches "the Bible, and the Bible only." OK, so where do all these other books come from? I was actually told by my Bible study teacher, "We don't question what Mrs. White says, because we know she was inspired." This woman was not "ill-informed;" she was a third-generation Adventist. OK, so it's really the Bible plus whatever Mrs. White says. One street evangelist told me, at a time I was still an Adventist, that Mrs. White is nothing more than the Adventist version of the Pope. I don't know about that, but I don't see a difference between Mrs. White versus Joseph Smith or Mary Baker Eddy. Certainly I saw more quoting of Mrs. White during a service, than I did of the Bible.

Official church literature teaches that women should not wear makeup or jewelry, which are worldly and in violation of certain Scriptures. Yet, as one outsider put it, "Every one of them wears a really fancy, expensive bracelet, but they put a timepiece in it, so they say it's OK."

In other threads I mentioned the woman (happens to be the Bible study teacher who came up earlier) who wouldn't come and pick me up to save me from my abusive, under-the-influence husband because the sun was due to set in two minutes. Church also counseled me to stay with that husband, because women are supposed to be submissive. We had two small children, and he wouldn't even bother going to look for work sometimes, but I shouldn't go get a job myself, because a woman's place is in the home.

My ex-husband was so extremely messy that it was impossible to keep a house clean behind him. The fact that we have been separated for years now, and I'm the one living in a reasonably orderly house while he lives like Oscar the Grouch in a trash can, shows where the problem was. But visitors to our home were constantly judging ME by the mess. I received more than one copy of "The Adventist Home" to show I wasn't running mine properly, and oh boy, did my ex get a big charge out of it when one woman pulled him aside and said, "You really need to get onto your wife more about the house." I'll grant her points for having said it in private, but he certainly took glee in bringing to me what she had said.

In another thread I also mentioned the potluck after Sabbath service, where I'm holding one child and feeding another one when my ex hurls a demand at me that I get up and get him some more juice. I shot back, "When did you lose the use of your legs?" Whereupon a deacon stood up, smiled at him and glared at me, and went and got the juice. Bad wife! (smack on wrist) Not submissive!

There are more, but this could create quite a bit of discussion now.
 
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BigJimP

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For the record, I am the OP's husband, and that's why I'm interested in this conversation. Present husband, that is, not the one mentioned before. I wouldn't treat her like that.

What I want to know is, for a church that claims "the Bible, and the Bible only," how come there is any other "official church literature" at all? It seems the only "official church literature" ought to be the Bible.

While we're on the subject, I've seen those Bible studies that claim the Roman Catholic church changed the Sabbath commandment. I was raised Catholic and graduated from a Catholic school, all twelve years. How come I never encountered that question-and-answer that is supposedly from Catholic teaching? "We worship on Sunday because the church says so" never came up in my catechism.

In high school, we didn't even call it catechism any more. We called it religion class, one year of which was apologetics. We never, ever came across that part about the church having the power to change the Sabbath commandment. The only time I have seen this addressed, the only time it is ever said that the Catholic church changed the Sabbath, is in Seventh-day Adventist literature.
 
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ThreeAM

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You should probably let adventist speak for themselves and not speak for them. Sure their are Adventists that are confused. Most of the well informed Adventist I know understand you cannot work your way into heaven.

No we don't believe in good works to BE SAVED. No on can work their way into heaven..absolutly NO ONE.

We are saved by the perfect work Christ did. Our work is already flawed and deserving of death.


When we are saved God calls us out of sin. We should not continue to conciously sin against God. We should try not to sin. The bible says sin is transgression of the law. When God looks at us he sees Christ sinless blood which covers our sin. We have a responsibilty to Christ to become more Christ like in our behavior and to avoid sin but we must remember its Christ's righteousness that God will see not our own because we cannot be righteous from our own efforts.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Click to expand...
 
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YeshuamySalvation

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ThreeAM said:
You should probably let adventist speak for themselves and not speak for them. Sure their are Adventists that are confused. Most of the well informed Adventist I know understand you cannot work your way into heaven.
Click to expand...
There is no confused Adventist, what they have is a confused theology, even the well informed Adventist don't understand justification by faith in Yeshua alone " they try to [unsuccesfully] add works to there salvation" it's a teaching that sprung from the master teacher Ellen White, she strongly believed that one had to work to be found worthy of salvation, and why did she believe in righteousness by works? Was it her fault? Partially is the answere thanks to Edison vision of Yeshua entering the Most Holy Place 1844, a teaching that has no such biblical foundation... I'l take it this far, 95% of Ellen Whites doctrines are not even her ideas they are Millers, Crosiers, Edison and many others... Furthermore, the Investigative Judgement Doctrine teaches a concept of meriting salvation by your preformance this has been discussed extensively in other threads..

No we don't believe in good works to BE SAVED. No on can work their way into heaven..absolutly NO ONE.
Click to expand...
Again, Traditional Seventh Day Adventist do believe they have to work to be saved.. What your attempting to do is like most Adventist play with words, as most Traditional Adventist do... No offence but you do not have me fooled.
 
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ThreeAM

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I'm not trying to fool you. I do not beleive in salvation by works my family does not beleive in it. I'm a thrid generation Adventist. I don't know anyone in my Chruch that has every expressed to me that we are saved by works. I do beleive that true Christians have good works. Qbedience is a sign of the Holy Spirit working in us which is a sign of sanctification.

NKJV Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise..
Click to expand...

Look what God promised Abraham's seed



We just need to decide who Abraham's seed realy is today. Paul said if we are Christ's were are Abraham's seed. God told Isreal that the sabbath is a sign of sanctification a sign between Israel and God. So FAITH in Christ leads to GRACE which imparts Christ's RIGHTEOUNESS which leads SALVATION which leads to SANCTIFICATION which leads to OBEDIENCE which does result in Good WORKS.. That is the reason the Sabbath is a perpetual sign of sanctification between God and His people FOREVER.


Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, AND the faith of Jesus.

The FAITH in Jesus leads to the keeping of the commandments because we love Jesus not to earn salvation. Salvation is a gift from Christ..obedience is a sign of our love for Christ.
 
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ThreeAM

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Do you believe in the Gifts of the Spirit? Are we not to listen to God's prophets when God speaks to us through them?


What is a remnant of cloth? The last of the cloth.

We believe the Renant of the Woman's [Church's] seed is the last days church because they keep the commandments AND that the testimony of Jesus Christ

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Click to expand...


What is the Testimony of Jesus Christ?


Here is another example of what the Testimony of Jesus Christ is.

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Click to expand...

So the renant or last of the Woman's [The Church] will keep the Commandments ans have the Spirit of prophecy.

Not all prophets in the bible have written boooks of the bible. John the baptist never wrote a book in the bible but his role at prophecying the coming of Christ had particular importance to God's people of John the Baptist's day. There are several other prophets that God has sent his people mentioned in the scripture but who did not write the scriptures...should have God's people just ignored these messengers from God?


So prophecy is a gift of the Spirit and we still have gifts of the Spirit today, Not all prophets that God has sent have written their message in the scriptures. The bible says we will see prophets in the last days. The bible says the woman's remnant seed will keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus Christ
which is the Spirit of Prophecy.

I have a copy of a catechism where the Catholic Church claims to have change the day of worship to sunday. There are lots of such quotes from catholic writtings. They wrote this stuff we only provide what they wrote. Here are a few:







And thanks for being a good husband ..its sounds like she deserved a change for the better.
 
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cruztacean

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Thank you, ThreeAM for your references. My husband isn't home right now, but I will show him these things when he comes back. Like him, I had also never seen those statements made outside of Seventh-day Adventist literature, and I wondered too if it was just something SDA's made up about Catholics. But since you gave references online, I was able to go to those sites and read the words in Catholic literature. Yep, it's there all right.

You may recall I said on the other thread, though, that I already realize that no part of the sabbath commandment has been transferred to Sunday, not with any scriptural authority anyway. I do not believe that Sunday is the "New Testament Sabbath." I believe that the Sabbath was, yes was, symbolic, and that Christ is the substance. I still stand by that. It has been pointed out that the sabbath commandment is the only one not repeated explicitly in the New Testament, and no, I don't think "Pray that your flight not take place in winter or on the Sabbath day" counts as repeating the commandment.

The Sabbath aside, other problems I have with the church are not solved. Would I listen to a prophet of God? Sure, if I believed that person to be a prophet of God. I still haven't seen anyone prove where Mrs. White is any different from Mrs. Eddy or Mr. Smith. Anybody can claim to be delivering God's message. So she was hit on the head and didn't have more than a third grade education. How does that make her a prophet? Can't prove it by me. And I still stand by this: "the Bible and the Bible only" means exactly that. Not "the Bible and Mrs. White." Your "spirit of prophecy" argument does not prove Mrs. White in particular to be a prophet.

You can also quote me every Scripture in the Bible that has the word "commandment" in it, and highlight the word "commandment," and it's still not going to prove to me that the seventh-day Sabbath is still in effect.

So I would say it's highly doubtful that I will ever again be a Seventh-day Adventist. Will I someday accept the Sabbath again? Maybe. That depends on my study, and I assure you I will continue studying. Not what someone tells me the Bible says, but what I see in it myself. But I will never again be a Seventh-day Adventist. You can rest assured on that.
 
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