This should end the discussion about easy grace and OSAS!

ToBeLoved said:

Maybe go read post #528. I'll wait.

Click to expand...

I just did.

It displays nothing about which I was speaking.

That is an opinion offered intramurally to one (you) who is presumably already saved.

You make no sense that I can see.

Your hatred is blinding you to simple and effective dialog IMO.

klutedavid said:

Hello Marvin.

You made a point in your post that I am not sure is warranted.

Here is what you said.

We both know from the relevant scripture below.

Romans 9
11...so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not
because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her,
“The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written, “Jacob I
loved, but Esau I hated.”

That according to God's choice, the older will serve the younger.
God chose Jacob and loved Jacob, God did not choose Esau.

This does not mean that Esau was not able to acheive salvation
in Christ. Esau was not eternally damned, the scripture never states
that this is the case. Your assuming that because Esau was not
chosen, like everyone else on the planet at the time, he was eternally
damned?

May I ask how you decided, that Esau and the rest of humanity was
damned, but only Jacob was saved?

Click to expand...

Consider God shows the extra effort of forcing this situation according to His will.
The elder will serve the younger is extraordinary, goes against the natural order.

With that, God is saying His will, His choice, not man's will or man's choice regarding who He will love with a great love and save, and who He will not and leave in their sins.

He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy and whom He wills HE hardens.
This seems very straightforwardly clear to me, if you just plain old accept the text as it is written. Let's not make it something it is not. You or me going to fight against God? I mean who can resist His will??

Marvin Knox said:

It works both ways here in this forum and in the church from the beginning. To say otherwise is to be blind to the truth concerning how some people on both sides tend to argue.

Click to expand...

I think you need to read through this thread again.

Marvin Knox said:

I just did.

It displays nothing about which I was speaking.

That is an opinion offered intramurally to one (you) who is presumably already saved.

You make no sense that I can see.

Your hatred is blinding you to simple and effective dialog IMO.

Click to expand...

It's not hatred.

It is very simple, people that exclude others from Christianity and salvation based on whether one feels they have been called, elect or such doctrine.

It is really very simple. To exclude some from the grace of God is to convince them that God does not love them. To me the worst thing someone can do.

You can try to make this into a big thing, but it's not. It's doctrine of not all, but only some. That's not God. God does not roll like that.

klutedavid said:

Hello Marvin.

You made a point in your post that I am not sure is warranted.

Here is what you said.

We both know from the relevant scripture below.

Romans 9
11...so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not
because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her,
“The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written, “Jacob I
loved, but Esau I hated.”

That according to God's choice, the older will serve the younger.
God chose Jacob and loved Jacob, God did not choose Esau.

This does not mean that Esau was not able to acheive salvation
in Christ. Esau was not eternally damned, the scripture never states
that this is the case. Your assuming that because Esau was not
chosen, like everyone else on the planet at the time, he was eternally
damned?

May I ask how you decided, that Esau and the rest of humanity was
damned, but only Jacob was saved?

Click to expand...

"What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? Romans 9:22-24

The passage talks clearly about wrath and destruction over against mercy and glorification.

He is talking about individuals who are so fit by God for either wrath or glory.

The fact that that condition is used to also call out a nation to be used in a certain way in history is beside the point.

sdowney717 said:

Consider God shows the extra effort of forcing this situation according to His will.
The elder will serve the younger is extraordinary, goes against the natural order.

With that, God is saying His will, His choice, not man's will or man's choice regarding who He will love with a great love and save, and who He will not and leave in their sins.

He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy and whom He wills HE hardens.
This seems very straightforwardly clear to me, if you just plain old accept the text as it is written. Let's not make it something it is not. You or me going to fight against God? I mean who can resist His will??

Click to expand...

God does not force His will on those who are not His Children.

Now this must be part of that whole we don't have free-will and God overpowers human beings with His will.

ToBeLoved said:

I think you need to read through this thread again.


It's not hatred.

It is very simple, people that exclude others from Christianity and salvation based on whether one feels they have been called, elect or such doctrine.

It is really very simple. To exclude some from the grace of God is to convince them that God does not love them. To me the worst thing someone can do.

You can try to make this into a big thing, but it's not. It's doctrine of not all, but only some. That's not God. God does not roll like that.

Click to expand...

You are in need of education about what Calvinists believe or so it seems to me.

You are also laboring under the misshapen idea that these doctrines are part of the gospel presentation that Calvinists engage in when talking to the world. You are wrong in that idea.

God bless you.

I hope to see you in Heaven and we'll compare notes.

Hello Downey.

I was reading your last post #521, when I noticed the following verse.

Romans 8
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed
to the image of His Son...

Could you explain to me which group (those) that Paul is referring to in the
verse above.

Given that 'foreknew' means to have previously known.

Is Paul saying the Gentiles are 'those' that God previously knew?

Is Paul saying the Jews are 'those' which God previously knew?

Or is Paul referring to both Jews and Gentiles by the word 'those'?

I am curious as to how you read that verse.

sdowney717 said:

Consider God shows the extra effort of forcing this situation according to His will.
The elder will serve the younger is extraordinary, goes against the natural order.

With that, God is saying His will, His choice, not man's will or man's choice regarding who He will love with a great love and save, and who He will not and leave in their sins.

He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy and whom He wills HE hardens.
This seems very straightforwardly clear to me, if you just plain old accept the text as it is written. Let's not make it something it is not. You or me going to fight against God? I mean who can resist His will??

Click to expand...

Hello Downy.

Your saying that only Jacob was chosen and therefore saved.

This means everyone else at the time was lost forever.

That is a remarkable claim to make.

Marvin Knox said:

You are in need of education about what Calvinists believe or so it seems to me.

You are also laboring under the misshapen idea that these doctrines are part of the gospel presentation that Calvinists engage in when talking to the world. You are wrong in that idea.

God bless you.

I hope to see you in Heaven and we'll compare notes.

Click to expand...

I think you are very wrong.

In post #528, written by the ones you are defending says:

I wonder what 'called' 'chosen' mean to some people, not much apparently.
Scripturally though they mean salvation is only for them that are called, chosen and faithful, and that is everything right there in just a few words. Those are the ones who will be with Christ and no one else. ALL the others will follow the beast and satan.

Maybe you don't read as well as I do. So I copied and underlined it for you.

Let's get real. This is exactly what they preach about salvation.

klutedavid said:

Hello Downey.

I was reading your last post #521, when I noticed the following verse.

Romans 8
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed
to the image of His Son...

Could you explain to me which group (those) that Paul is referring to in the
verse above.

Given that 'foreknew' means to have previously known.

Is Paul saying the Gentiles are 'those' that God previously knew?

Is Paul saying the Jews are 'those' which God previously knew?

Or is Paul referring to both Jews and Gentiles by the word 'those'?

I am curious as to how you read that verse.

Click to expand...

Hi, sure I read it like this as the amplified bible states it.

29 For those whom He foreknew [of whom He was aware and loved beforehand], He also destined from the beginning [foreordaining them] to be molded into the image of His Son [and share inwardly His likeness], that He might become the firstborn among many brethren.

30 And those whom He thus foreordained, He also called; and those whom He called, He also justified (acquitted, made righteous, putting them into right standing with Himself). And those whom He justified, He also glorified [raising them to a heavenly dignity and condition or state of being].

'Those' would be the persons He foreknew with a great love, before they existed, before they were born. He designed them to be what they would become.

For support of this consider this.
Psalm 139:16New King James Version (NKJV)
16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written,
The days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them.

klutedavid said:

Hello Downy.

Your saying that only Jacob was chosen and therefore saved.

This means everyone else at the time was lost forever.

That is a remarkable claim to make.

Click to expand...

Not just Jacob was saved, the text is only discussing Jacob and Esau as antitypes. Types of people, that God uses them as an example of election. As always, scripture divides people between the saved and the unsaved. My view is Esau was not saved and Jacob was saved. Cant say anything about others by name as their names are not mentioned.

sdowney717 said:

Not just Jacob was saved, the text is only discussing Jacob and Esau as antitypes. Types of people, that God uses them as an example of election. As always, scripture divides people between the saved and the unsaved. My view is Esau was not saved and Jacob was saved. Cant say anything about others by name as their names are not mentioned.

Click to expand...

Hello Downey.

We know that only Jacob was chosen, it is impossible that anyone else
could be chosen. The Old Testament is all about a single lineage that
commenced with Issac. Issac was chosen and so was Jacob, there cannot
be any other chosen individual, that would utterly shred the Old Testament.

If you would be so kind, could you tell me what this chapter nine is about.

What is Paul discussing in the opening paragraphs?

What is Paul saying in the closing paragraph?

brotherjerry said:

Be wary old Calvinists...when you hold your TULIP up so high you can't focus on God and have since made an idol.

Click to expand...

How do we not focus on God? Calvinist hold God in such a high regard that we get criticized for defending his absolute sovereignty and the fact we bring absolutely nothing before him in regards to our salvation.

ToBeLoved said:

I think you are very wrong.

In post #528, written by the ones you are defending says:

I wonder what 'called' 'chosen' mean to some people, not much apparently.
Scripturally though they mean salvation is only for them that are called, chosen and faithful, and that is everything right there in just a few words. Those are the ones who will be with Christ and no one else. ALL the others will follow the beast and satan.

Maybe you don't read as well as I do. So I copied and underlined it for you.

Let's get real. This is exactly what they preach about salvation.

Click to expand...

Thank you for going to the trouble of copying and highlighting it for me.

My eyesight is not what it used to be for sure.

The passage is however just as I read it the first time.

That post by sdowney does not say that people have to believe these doctrines to be saved. He would never require belief in all of the doctrines which he subscribes to in order for a person to be considered by him to be saved. (At least I hope not.)

What is going on here is an intramural debate about whether those who are saved were predestined, elected, and chosen by the Lord before time and then called in time according to that election.

No one is making the argument that these or any other particular doctrine must be subscribed to in order for a person to be save.

Are you saying that they are?

Isaiah55:6 said:

How do we not focus on God? Calvinist hold God in such a high regard that we get criticized for defending his absolute sovereignty and the fact we bring absolutely nothing before him in regards to our salvation.

Click to expand...

What does anyone bring to salvation but faith that Jesus Christ died for sins?

klutedavid said:

Hello Downey.

We know that only Jacob was chosen, it is impossible that anyone else
could be chosen. The Old Testament is all about a single lineage that
commenced with Issac. Issac was chosen and so was Jacob, there cannot
be any other chosen individual, that would utterly shred the Old Testament.

If you would be so kind, could you tell me what this chapter nine is about.

What is Paul discussing in the opening paragraphs?

What is Paul saying in the closing paragraph?

Click to expand...

Well, Paul opens the chapter expressing his grief that the jews are not believing the gospel.
And of course wishes and prays their eyes would be opened, perfectly acceptable to pray God to be merciful and save someone.
But Paul goes on acknowledging a scriptural truth first spoken by God in the OT. That of the promised son to Abraham.
Abraham could not naturally bear a child, it took a miracle of God to produce Isaac. And Isaac is called a child of the promise. What God is saying is Abraham would be the father of many nations, Abraham's children who would be counted, (accepted into the beloved) by God as the seed, must also be miraculous by their birth, that means they must ALL of them be also children of the promise as Isaac was. Paul mentions this to the Galatians (gentiles) , that we the believers are as Isaac was, children of the promise,

Galatians 4:28
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.

To be a child of the promise, Paul says they must be born of the Spirit, not according to the flesh. So then they must be born again to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Galatians 4
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:

“Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.”31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

I just introduced Galatians because it does help to understand this idea, AND it shows Gentiles and Jews both can be children of the promise.

Romans 9
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,
7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”
8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

Only those born according to the Spirit are the children of God, This all agrees with Christ saying you must be born again.
Romans 9
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,

Some from both Jew and Gentile are included, according to His eternal purposes, according to the council of His own will, HE makes that choice.
24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Here are those called from among the gentiles, v25 - v26
25 As He says also in Hosea:

“I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”
26 “And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

Here is Israel, only the remnant, who are of the elect will obtain salvation. v27- v29
The Lord left a seed, a small number of them are believers in Christ.
27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:

“Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.
28 For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,
Because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth.”

29 And as Isaiah said before:

“Unless the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed,
We would have become like Sodom,
And we would have been made like Gomorrah.”

God will justify people by faith, the righteous shall live by their faith. This is an OT truth. Abraham was justified by his faith and Habakkuk
says
Habakkuk 2:4
“Behold the proud, His soul is not upright in him; But the just shall live by his faith.

From both Jews and Gentile the righteous shall live by faith and not by works of the LAW.
The question is where does faith come? I hold to it being a gift, part of our being born again, a child of the promise, every good and perfect gift comes down from above from the Father of Lights with whom there is no variation due to change.

Present Condition of Israel
30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:

“Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

ToBeLoved said:

What does anyone bring to salvation but faith that Jesus Christ died for sins?

Click to expand...

Nothing.

Only the God authored faith that Jesus Christ died for their sins is require to be saved.

Marvin Knox said:

Thank you for going to the trouble of copying and highlighting it for me.

My eyesight is not what it used to be for sure.

The passage is however just as I read it the first time.

That post by sdowney does not say that people have to believe these doctrines to be saved. He would never require belief in all of the doctrines which he subscribes to in order for a person to be considered by him to be saved. (At least I hope not.)

What is going on here is an intramural debate about whether those who are saved were predestined, elected, and chosen by the Lord before time and then called in time according to that election.

No one is making the argument that these or any other particular doctrine must be subscribed to in order for a person to be save.

Are you saying that they are?

Click to expand...

What do you not understand about someone saying that only the called, chosen and faithful will be with Christ?

In saying this, he is saying that God does the choosing, not that all who come to Christ are saved.

I'm not getting why this is so hard for you to understand and read.

Marvin Knox said:

Nothing.

Only the God authored faith that Jesus Christ died for their sins is require to be saved.

Click to expand...

Isaiah55 says that they believe that they bring nothing to salvation. That's what I was questioning. What does any of us bring besides faith? So how can one be elect over another when we all only bring faith?

ToBeLoved said:

What do you not understand about someone saying that only the called, chosen and faithful will be with Christ?

In saying this, he is saying that God does the choosing, not that all who come to Christ are saved.

I'm not getting why this is so hard for you to understand and read.

Click to expand...

He is indeed saying that.

What he is not saying is what you have accused Calvinists including him of saying.

Namely that that is their gospel that they preach to the world.

You may disagree that the Bible teaches these doctrines. But you may not accuse every Calvinist of preaching them as part of their presentation of the gospel to the world.

Explaining and contending for sound doctrine with such as you - yes.

To the world, which is not equipped to enter into such intra-Christian doctrinal debates - no.

Debate the topic if you are able. Or don't if you are not or choose not to. Just get off the case of those who are debating it as something essential to a proper understanding of how people get saved and why they cannot lose that gift of salvation in this life.

Your move lady! This is getting very old.