This Imperfection We Suffer

[DavidPresently]

We all have suffered with imperfection; in our natural selves and others. We all are saved by grace through faith, not of works, lest we boast. So, if the only perfection we ever have is given to us freely in spirit in Christ, then why do we find it so difficult to see others this way? Why do we insist on finding fault in the imperfections of others and holding them to standards we ourselves could never meet?

We are to love others as Christ has loved us. To do this requires we love unconditionally, the person regardless of their imperfections we perceive. He loved us and saved us while we were yet enemies and sinners against God.

This may be the number one issue that reveals who is in bondage to religious devils but believes in Christ, and who has allowed Christ to set them free indeed. When we are free indeed, we are free to love and be loved without condition. When we are religious hypocrites, we are bound to judge and be judged with specific conditions.

 

[Deba]

I personally have a few character flaws (one really big one that frequently trips me, humiliates me and makes me want to quit). Not a sin, but an aspect of personality. But I've come to believe that maybe God is not as concerned with my character as I am. And if that be the case, then the character flaws of others are not my concern and should not cause me to stumble as mine own do.

 

[mourningdove~]

We all have suffered with imperfection; in our natural selves and others. We all are saved by grace through faith, not of works, lest we boast. So, if the only perfection we ever have is given to us freely in spirit in Christ, then why do we find it so difficult to see others this way? Why do we insist on finding fault in the imperfections of others and holding them to standards we ourselves could never meet?

We are to love others as Christ has loved us. To do this requires we love unconditionally, the person regardless of their imperfections we perceive. He loved us and saved us while we were yet enemies and sinners against God.

This may be the number one issue that reveals who is in bondage to religious devils but believes in Christ, and who has allowed Christ to set them free indeed. When we are free indeed, we are free to love and be loved without condition. When we are religious hypocrites, we are bound to judge and be judged with specific conditions.

Thank you for sharing this. I've been learning the same thing lately.
I believe this 'lesson' has alot to do with 'humility'.

Humility: acknowledgment of the truth about who God is, and who I am.

When we get this 'right', the rest begins to fall into place ...

 

[ARBITER01]

This may be the number one issue that reveals who is in bondage to religious devils but believes in Christ, and who has allowed Christ to set them free indeed. When we are free indeed, we are free to love and be loved without condition. When we are religious hypocrites, we are bound to judge and be judged with specific conditions.

Well Paul sets boundaries right here,..

Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner in the Lord, beseech you to walk worthily of the calling wherewith ye were called,

I don't consider Paul to be a religious hypocrite just because he set particulars about what our leaders are suppose to do.

 

[Deba]

I think we can so much focus on our shortcomings, that the selfish pursuit of the perfection of our character (not to mention our guilt and wasted spiritual energy) causes us to loose our usefulfulness to God for His purposes.

 

[DavidPresently]

Well Paul sets boundaries right here,..




I don't consider Paul to be a religious hypocrite just because he set particulars about what our leaders are suppose to do.

No one said such. I agree with what Scripture says, taken in the whole counsel.

The point of this thread is how we perceive ourselves and others, not standards for leadership. The religious bondage Satan puts believers in can be very subtle. There are traits that if we know them can alert us to the temptations of religious hypocrisy. One of the traits is seeing our own sin dealt with graciously by Christ as lesser than that of others.

For example, the Pharisee who prays, "I thank you God that I'm not like that sinner over there," contrasted with the "sinner over there," who beat his chest and cried out to God for mercy, admitting his problem and asking God to help.

Since you brought leadership into this, though I agree with the principle of standards you brought up, because the instructions God has given us provide those standards, I may disagree with how leaders arrive to those standards.

I believe they are to arrive through refinement by the Potter, because of going through preparation stages in which they are humbled before Christ and made to depend on Christ empowerment to overcome, not self religious effort, which in the end will only white-wash the outer man.

For example, David was taken through years of preparation on the run from Saul trying to kill him and was humbled and refined through the process to become the leader God wanted him to be. Later on when he committed murder and adultery, that did not disqualify him, as God is patient and merciful. The fact is, David was anointed still and a man after God's heart, though he failed at times in the flesh. However, his sinning was not habitual which is what Paul meant in the NT. Christians young (immature) in the faith, not having been developed from the inside out, have no business being made leaders, as Paul said. People need to have been tested and tried through the preparation that refines them first. In this manner they become Overcomers. That doesn't mean they will not fail at some point in the flesh again. It means they are generally free from the bondage of sin and death, and walk with Christ in his Life.

Many church leaders today are not Overcomers and don't really meet the requirements of leadership, including empowerment by the Holy Spirit to minister supernaturally in the Body of Christ. Instead, many are appointed by other men and have trained in the white-washing of outward religious observance to appear godly before men. The "fruit" these leaders bear is fake plastic fruit like we put in bowls for decoration. It looks good, but it has no substance.

On the other hand, some groups will appoint leaders who show calling and anointing but have not been through the fires of refinement yet and matured. Then they wonder why, even with power from on High, these leaders so easily get tripped up in scandal and such that brings reproach to the whole group/movement.

Again, even if we do have refined and empowered leaders, which are the only ones who truly qualify, they are still going to be imperfect. To expect perfection from anyone this side of the resurrection is unrealistic.

 

[ARBITER01]

Again, even if we do have refined and empowered leaders, which are the only ones who truly qualify, they are still going to be imperfect. To expect perfection from anyone this side of the resurrection is unrealistic.

That would be incorrect. James told us to let patience have it's perfective work, if there was not an end result, then why the statement? If there was not an end result why would Paul say "imitate me as I imitate Christ?"

We are to test the spirits, try the fruits, and know those that labor among us, all of which requires us to discern and judge continually. The standard we compare them to is Jesus, as He stated here,..

Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto the Father.

If it is not possible for any of us to attain to it, He wouldn't have said it.

But aside from what we expect, it is not our job to continually mumble and groan against what is happening in the body of Christ. The body is the responsibility of Jesus, not us, so we are in no position to constantly worry about others while we are going through our own wilderness. We each answer for our own race given us from The Lord in the end.

 

[DavidPresently]

Once again, Arbi, you are arguing with me about what you imagine I said, not what I actually said. I never said perfection is Christ is not attainable. If I believed that I would have no hope and would not willingly submit to the refinement process in the flesh. What I said is that expecting leaders to be perfect right now is unrealistic. This is based on fact. Unless you can show us that many Christian leaders, or even some, are perfected in Christ manifestly in the flesh right now.

In spirit, anyone born of the Spirit is perfect. In the flesh, these old body remains that struggle with sin nature. These bodies will die, the penalty of sin. However, through the redemption of Christ, there is a resurrection Scripture teaches us to look forward to. I stand by what I said, that until then, it is unrealistic to expect leaders, or any Christians, to currently walk manifestly in the earth in perfection. I've never seen or met one of those.

Of course, you may be one and we just don't know it.

 

[ARBITER01]

Once again, Arbi, you are arguing with me about what you imagine I said, not what I actually said. I never said perfection is Christ is not attainable. If I believed that I would have no hope and would not willingly submit to the refinement process in the flesh. What I said is that expecting leaders to be perfect right now is unrealistic. This is based on fact. Unless you can show us that many Christian leaders, or even some, are perfected in Christ manifestly in the flesh right now.

In spirit, anyone born of the Spirit is perfect. In the flesh, these old body remains that struggle with sin nature. These bodies will die, the penalty of sin. However, through the redemption of Christ, there is a resurrection Scripture teaches us to look forward to. I stand by what I said, that until then, it is unrealistic to expect leaders, or any Christians, to currently walk manifestly in the earth in perfection. I've never seen or met one of those.

Of course, you may be one and we just don't know it.

I'm sorry but you made this statement,..

To expect perfection from anyone this side of the resurrection is unrealistic.

And that disagrees with our bible,..

Eph 4:11 And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Eph 4:12 for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ:

Eph 4:13 till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Eph 4:14 that we may be no longer children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, in craftiness, after the wiles of error;

Eph 4:15 but speaking truth in love, may grow up in all things into him, which is the head, even Christ;

Paul states there is a perfection for the body of Christ, so yes it is realistic to expect it.

 

[Magentic]

That has a long way to go imo

Eph 4:13 till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

 

[ARBITER01]

That has a long way to go imo

Eph 4:13 till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

I agree, but we should see examples of this from time to time.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

We all have suffered with imperfection; in our natural selves and others. We all are saved by grace through faith, not of works, lest we boast. So, if the only perfection we ever have is given to us freely in spirit in Christ, then why do we find it so difficult to see others this way? Why do we insist on finding fault in the imperfections of others and holding them to standards we ourselves could never meet?

We are to love others as Christ has loved us. To do this requires we love unconditionally, the person regardless of their imperfections we perceive. He loved us and saved us while we were yet enemies and sinners against God.

This may be the number one issue that reveals who is in bondage to religious devils but believes in Christ, and who has allowed Christ to set them free indeed. When we are free indeed, we are free to love and be loved without condition. When we are religious hypocrites, we are bound to judge and be judged with specific conditions.

The more time we spend with God the more we take on His likeness and personality. When we don't see HIS likeness coming through, then it's our first clue where we are lacking.

No fretting though, HE is right there waiting for us. Our imperfections can begin lining up with HIM immediately. It does not matter what others think (due to their own imperfections), it's between HE and each of us as we remain in fellowship with HIM.

 

[DavidPresently]

Paul states there is a perfection for the body of Christ, so yes it is realistic to expect it.

Again, I agree. You are not disagreeing with what I'm actually stating, you are disagreeing with how you perceive what I'm stating. The point of this thread and what I've been stating has nothing to do with the ideal of what is attainable. You are the one wanting to make it about such. We agree that perfection in Christ is attainable and is absolutely every believer's end result. We will all be perfected. We are not all there in time in the natural right now. It is not made manifest yet. We continue to seek after unity with Christ until we reach perfection.

My ministry is all about the perfecting of the saints. That is why, though you don't understand it, we point out the greatest most widespread bondage Christians are in that is hindering their growth in Christ - religiosity - Pharisaic religious bondage. Antichrist spirits are religious devils. They are expert at trapping believers of the message in Scripture into religious bondage. Our ministry will continue to do this, like Jesus did, and continue to desire to operate in the power of God to see people delivered from bondage and be free indeed in Christ - free to go onward toward perfection in Christ.

 

[ARBITER01]

We agree that perfection in Christ is attainable and is absolutely every believer's end result. We will all be perfected. We are not all there in time in the natural right now. It is not made manifest yet. We continue to seek after unity with Christ until we reach perfection.

And I'm sorry but you are wrong. Of course we will be glorified evetually, but at this moment there is a perfection we can attain to that was what Jesus walked in.

There is nothing that Jesus attained to here that we cannot attain to also. The works He did here was our standard to reach for also, and they require holiness and purity or no one will attain them.

 

[DavidPresently]

And I'm sorry but you are wrong. Of course we will be glorified evetually, but at this moment there is a perfection we can attain to that was what Jesus walked in.

There is nothing that Jesus attained to here that we cannot attain to also. The works He did here was our standard to reach for also, and they require holiness and purity or no one will attain them.

If I am wrong, so are you, as on the subject of attainable perfection in Christ we agree. I do not disagree with any of the points you have made on that subject. That is not the subject point of my op. You've done this with me many times in other threads and keep repeating here - you argue with your own imagination of what others say. With me it seems to be somewhat of a hobby for you - to simply be disagreeable.

 

[ARBITER01]

If I am wrong, so are you, as on the subject of attainable perfection in Christ we agree. I do not disagree with any of the points you have made on that subject. That is not the subject point of my op. You've done this with me many times in other threads and keep repeating here - you argue with your own imagination of what others say. With me it seems to be somewhat of a hobby for you - to simply be disagreeable.

Sorry my friend, but when you make a statement such as this,..

To expect perfection from anyone this side of the resurrection is unrealistic.

It will be challenged, and was.

If you don't like what scripture says against your personal views here, then you need to change them to be inline with scripture, because the biblical examples are there as goals for all of us.

Do we think that no one but peter could walk past individuals without saying anything or touching them and they be healed by GOD? That example of walking in His light is there for all of us to attain to, and such an example requires a perfection beyond just justification.

 

[Magentic]

Sorry my friend, but when you make a statement such as this,..

It will be challenged, and was.

If you don't like what scripture says against your personal views here, then you need to change them to be inline with scripture, because the biblical examples are there as goals for all of us.

Do we think that no one but peter could walk past individuals without saying anything or touching them and they be healed by GOD? That example of walking in His light is there for all of us to attain to, and such an example requires a perfection beyond just justification.

Again I have to disagree. Your talking about the guy who talked from one side of his mouth to the other in almost the same instant. Granted that was before the pentecost but growing is just that. Peter was given power beyond measure, Jesus said to expect that. But Peter didn't become superhuman and lose his fleshly ways any more than we can till the body is resurrected. Jesus was the ONLY one without sin.

 

[ARBITER01]

Again I have to disagree. Your talking about the guy who talked from one side of his mouth to the other in almost the same instant. Granted that was before the pentecost but growing is just that. Peter was given power beyond measure, Jesus said to expect that. But Peter didn't become superhuman and lose his fleshly ways any more than we can till the body is resurrected. Jesus was the ONLY one without sin.

Jesus was without sin because He fought it.

As GOD I do believe He had a slight advantage in His will against it, but what He attained here we can also, or else it would not be a perfect standard for us to uphold and compare to.

There are people in Christianity that really feel they cannot achieve such a walk similar to Jesus, as it appears the OP is suggesting, but Jesus stated Himself that we can.