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Thinking of universal salvation

Ribosome

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I have developed a great sadness and horror at the thought of some people going to hell, either eternal or temporary. Even if I get to heaven though faith or whatnot, the thought of my fellow humans going to hell is very depressing. I am no different from them, and I easily could have been in their place... this is horrifying to me. I cannot be at peace and enjoy God while he does not save other people from suffering.

It is hard for me to accept a God who creates people into a world where they are in danger of going to hell. If God is good, why would he let people suffer in hell? Even if we have free will, would any person willfully choose eternal or temporary suffering in hell? I don't think they would if they they were convinced of the existence of hell and the reality of the danger of going there. These are rhetorical questions so far, don't answer them.

When I look at the situation that man is in, with our lack of ability to know absolute reality, all we got is guesses at what reality is. Would God expect us to discover absolute reality and the truth about what one needs to do to be saved? Man has always tried to discover it, yet we never will... certainty is impossible for man in this world.

What I'm looking for here, is some information on books or websites that believe in universal salvation to everyone thought Christ's death and resurrection as the one who took the guilt of mankind and saved everyone from eternal and temporary hell. I'm wondering if anyone out there holds this view and can give arguments for it biblically... websites or organizations etc.
 

Rajni

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I have developed a great sadness and horror at the thought of some people going to hell, either eternal or temporary. Even if I get to heaven though faith or whatnot, the thought of my fellow humans going to hell is very depressing. I am no different from them, and I easily could have been in their place... this is horrifying to me. I cannot be at peace and enjoy God while he does not save other people from suffering.

It is hard for me to accept a God who creates people into a world where they are in danger of going to hell. If God is good, why would he let people suffer in hell? Even if we have free will, would any person willfully choose eternal or temporary suffering in hell? I don't think they would if they they were convinced of the existence of hell and the reality of the danger of going there. These are rhetorical questions so far, don't answer them.

When I look at the situation that man is in, with our lack of ability to know absolute reality, all we got is guesses at what reality is. Would God expect us to discover absolute reality and the truth about what one needs to do to be saved? Man has always tried to discover it, yet we never will... certainty is impossible for man in this world.

What I'm looking for here, is some information on books or websites that believe in universal salvation to everyone thought Christ's death and resurrection as the one who took the guilt of mankind and saved everyone from eternal and temporary hell. I'm wondering if anyone out there holds this view and can give arguments for it biblically... websites or organizations etc.
I'm a believer in universal salvation, so I can definitely sympathize with
your concerns on that front.

As for potentially useful sites, below are a couple I'm aware of:

The Christian Universalist Association | All God's children – No one left behind!

The site of author Thomas Talbott, who wrote "The
Inescapable Love of God"
: Thomas Talbott- The Inescapable Love of God - 2nd Edition



-
 
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By Faith Alone

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No such thing as universal salvation and John 3:16 alone proves that. Perish is perish.

The really sad thing is that theological seminaries and tradition rule the day.

There is also NOT any Platonic hell torturing ANYONE for eternity. Hell is NOT the platonic inferno. Hell is the grave in one translation from the Greek. "Gehenna" is also translated into "hell".


There is no eternity in Scriptures aside from being IN CHRIST. The Hebrew "olam" and the Greek "aion" are AGES. 1 Corinthians 15:24 says "Then....the end" and the beginning is seen in Genesis 1:1. The end is when the goal of God is reached that the moral realm is brought back to perfection. No evil, sin nor death.



http://www.christianforums.com/t7781557/
 
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Hillsage

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What I'm looking for here, is some information on books or websites that believe in universal salvation to everyone thought Christ's death and resurrection as the one who took the guilt of mankind and saved everyone from eternal and temporary hell. I'm wondering if anyone out there holds this view and can give arguments for it biblically... websites or organizations etc.

I started studying Christian Universal Reconciliation in the 70's before URLs. But feel like there are a couple more that I'd highly recommend.

Good news of God's love for all mankind - find it here at Tentmaker
An excellent source for antiquity research materials

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW1.htm
An excellent series of booklets dealing with individual questions relating to this topic.

HopeBeyondHell.net — The Righteous Purpose of God's Judgment
A great book
 
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Hillsage

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Does it have to be Either:

A. All people go to Heaven.

OR

B. Some people are tortured alive in Hell forever.

?


According to the Bible, those who do not have eternal life will perish.

Either the plan of God saves all or it saves none IMO.

JOH 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish/apollumi, but have everlasting life.

LUK 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost/apollumi.


Timothew, to those who do not get saved in this age; to perish/apollumi is their temporal end. But after that 'end' comes; the ages to come will arrive, and God's job of "seeking and saving" those who have experienced apollumi will be completed...and death will be no more. IOW apollumi is the very condition needed to qualify for life. :)

MAT 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
 
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I have developed a great sadness and horror at the thought of some people going to hell, either eternal or temporary. Even if I get to heaven though faith or whatnot, the thought of my fellow humans going to hell is very depressing. I am no different from them, and I easily could have been in their place... this is horrifying to me. I cannot be at peace and enjoy God while he does not save other people from suffering...

I think God is good, he don’t so anything wrong or evil. Therefore, if he sends someone to hell, I think there is good reason for that, even though I may not know it right now. That is why I don’t worry about hell and who is going to hell, because I believe it is right what God does.

I believe that hell is second death where soul and body are destroyed. And I think it is same as eternal separation from God and life. Those who don’t want Godly life, don’t have it and I think they are satisfied if they are not forced to live with God against their own will.

…They were judged, each one according to his works. Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:12-15

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28

If hell would be eternal life, I think unrighteous people would make it really bad suffering place for all that is there. And I think it would be too bad to allow evil people torture each other eternally. That is why I think eternal life is only for righteous.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

...When I look at the situation that man is in, with our lack of ability to know absolute reality, all we got is guesses at what reality is. Would God expect us to discover absolute reality and the truth about what one needs to do to be saved?...

Eternal life doesn’t come if person does right works. So person don’t have to know what he should do to be saved. It is s gift for righteous people. Righteousness is like right state of mind, which makes person do right actions.
 
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Der Alte

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No such thing as universal salvation and John 3:16 alone proves that. Perish is perish.

The really sad thing is that theological seminaries and tradition rule the day.

There is also NOT any Platonic hell torturing ANYONE for eternity. Hell is NOT the platonic inferno. Hell is the grave in one translation from the Greek. "Gehenna" is also translated into "hell".

There is no eternity in Scriptures aside from being IN CHRIST. The Hebrew "olam" and the Greek "aion" are AGES. 1 Corinthians 15:24 says "Then....the end" and the beginning is seen in Genesis 1:1. The end is when the goal of God is reached that the moral realm is brought back to perfection. No evil, sin nor death.

[Link omitted]

Wrong on all points. Both Olam and Aion do mean forever, eternal, unending, etc. If one only reads websites which support one's assumptions/presuppositons they will only know what people of like mind believe but if one wants the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth one should consult Hebrew and Greek sources. The first i will share with you nine language sources cited. Fourteen total references! 1. NAS Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries, 2. Thayer’s Lexicon, 3. Vine’s Expository of Biblical Words, 3 references, 4. Louw-Nida Greek English Lexicon of the NT based on Semantic Domains, 2 references, 5. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, 6. Abridged Greek lexicon, Liddell-Scott, 7. Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, 3 references, 8. Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker Greek English Lexicon of the NT and other Early Christian Literature, 9. Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the NT.

Aionios and the lexicons:
166.[/b] αιωνιος aionios; from 165; agelong, eternal:— eternal(66), eternity(1), forever(1).
Thomas, Robert L., Th.D., General Editor, New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries,​

166 aionios- αιωνιος
1) without beginning and end, what has always been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

---Thayers​
2. &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; aionios [166] "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in <Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2>; or undefined because endless as in <Rom. 16:26>, and the other sixty-six places in the NT.

"The predominant meaning of &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; , that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in <2 Cor. 4:18>, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., `for a season,' and in <Philem. 15>, where only in the NT it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e. g., of God, <Rom. 16:26>; of His power, <1 Tim. 6:16>, and of His glory, <1 Pet. 5:10>; of the Holy Spirit, <Heb. 9:14>; of the redemption effected by Christ, <Heb. 9:12>, and of the consequent salvation of men, <5:9>, as well as of His future rule, <2 Pet. 1:11>, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, <Luke 1:33>; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, <John 3:16>, concerning whom He said, `they shall never perish,' <10:28>, and of the resurrection body, <2 Cor. 5:1>, elsewhere said to be `immortal,' <1 Cor. 15:53>, in which that life will be finally realized, <Matt. 25:46; Titus 1:2>.

&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; is also used of the sin that `hath never forgiveness,' <Mark 3:29>, and of the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal, <Heb. 6:2>, and of the fire, which is one of its instruments, <Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7>, and which is elsewhere said to be `unquenchable,' <Mark 9:43>.
"The use of &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; here shows that the punishment referred to in <2 Thes. 1:9>, is not temporary, but final, and, accordingly, the phraseology shows that its purpose is not remedial but retributive."

From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, pp 232, 233. (from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words) (Copyright (C) 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)​

67.96 &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; aji>vdio", on; aijwvnio", on: pertaining to an unlimited duration of time - ‘eternal
aji>vdio"ò h{ te aji>vdio" aujtou` duvnami" kai; qeiovth" ‘his eternal power and divine nature’ Ro 1.20.
aijwvnio"ò blhqh`nai eij" to; pu`r to; aijwvnion ‘be thrown into the eternal fire’ Mt 18.8; tou` aijwnivou qeou` ‘of the eternal God’ Ro 16.26.

The most frequent use of &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; in the NT is with zwhv ‘life,’ for example, i{na pa`" oJ pisteuvwn ejn aujtw/` e[ch/ zwh;n aijwvnion ‘so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life’ Jn 3.15. In combination with zwhv there is evidently not only a temporal element, but also a qualitative distinction. In such contexts, &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; evidently carries certain implications associated with &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; in relationship to divine and supernatural attributes. If one translates ‘eternal life’ as simply ‘never dying,’ there may be serious misunderstandings, since persons may assume that ‘never dying’ refers only to physical existence rather than to ‘spiritual death.’ Accordingly, some translators have rendered ‘eternal life’ as ‘unending real life,’ so as to introduce a qualitative distinction.

Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989.​

&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; aionios. An adjective meaning “eternal,” and found in the LXX in Pss. 24; 77:5; Gen. 21:33, aionios in the NT is used 1. of God (Rom. 16:26), 2. of divine possessions and gifts (2 Cor. 4:18; Heb. 9:14; 1 Pet. 5:10; 1 Tim. 6:16; 2 Th. 2:16, and 3. of the eternal kingdom (2 Pet. 1:11), inheritance (Heb. 9:15), body (2 Cor. 5:1), and even judgment (Heb. 6:2, though cf. Mt. 18:8; 2 Th. 1:9, where the sense is perhaps “unceasing”).

Kittel, Gerhard, and Friedrich, Gerhard, Editors, The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume, (Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company) 1985.​
&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; aionios ", ov and a, ov, lasting for an age (aion 3), Plat.: ever-lasting, eternal, Id.

Liddell, H. G., and Scott, Abridged Greek-English Lexicon, (Oxford: Oxford University Press) 1992.​

166 aionios { ahee-o’-nee-os} &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; from 165; TDNT - 1:208,31; adj
AV - eternal 42, everlasting 25, the world began + 5550 2, since the world began + 5550 1, for ever 1; 71
GK - 173 { aionios }
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting


Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.​

CL The Gk. word &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957; aion, which is probably derived from aei, … It thus appeared appropriate to later philosophers to use the word both for the dim and distant past, the beginning of the world, and for the far future, eternity (e.g. Plato, Tim. 37d).

Plato (Timoeus, ed. Steph. 3, 37, or ed. Baiter, Orell. et Winck. 712) says, speaking of the universe: …The nature therefore of the animal (living being) was eternal (aionios, before aidios), and this indeed it was impossible to adapt to what was produced (to genneto, to what had a beginning); he thinks to make a moveable image of eternity (aionos), and in adoring the heavens he makes of the eternity permanent in unity a certain eternal image moving in number, … And after unfolding this, he says (p. 38): "But these forms of time imitating eternity (aiona), and rolling round according to number, have had a beginning (gegonen).... For that pattern exists for all eternity (panta aiona estin on), but on the other hand, that which is perpetual (dia telous) throughout all time has had a beginning, and is, and will be." … Aion is what is properly eternal, in contrast with a divine imitation of it in ages of time, the result of the creative action of God which imitated the uncreate as nearly as He could in created ages.. ]

In Plato the term is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and the earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.
* * *
NIDNTT Colin Brown​
Wherefore neither in place are things there formed by nature; nor does time cause them to grow old: neither is there any change of anything of those things which are arranged beyond the outermost orbit; but unchangeable, and subject to no influence, having the best and most independent life, they continue for all eternity (aiona). … According to the same word (logon) the completeness of the whole heaven, and the completeness which embraces all time and infinitude is aion, having received this name from existing for ever (apo tou aei einai), immortal (athanatos, undying), and divine." In 10 he goes on to shew that that beginning to be (genesthai) involves the not existing always, which I refer to as shewing what he means by aion. He is proving the unchangeable eternity of the visible universe. That is no business of mine; but it shews what he means by eternity (aion). It cannot be aidion and genesthai at the same time, when, as in Plato, aidios is used as equivalent to aionios
 
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Der Alte

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Philo, the sentence is in De Mundo, 7, en aioni de oute pareleluthen ouden, oute mellei, alla monon iphesteken. Such a definition needs no explanation: in eternity nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists. This has the importance of being of the date and Hellenistic Greek of the New Testament, as the others give the regular, and at the same time philosophical force of the word, aion, aionios. Eternity, unchangeable, with no 'was' nor 'will be,' is its proper force, that it can be applied to the whole existence of a thing, so that nothing of its nature was before true or after is true, to telos to periechon. But its meaning is eternity, and eternal. … That is, things that are for a time are put in express contrast with aionia, which are not for a time, be it age or ages, but eternal. Nothing can be more decisive of its positive and specific meaning.

0166 aionios &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; without beginning or end, eternal, everlasting
LEH lxx lexicon
UBS GNT Dict. # 169 (Str#166)
aionios eternal (of quality rather than of time); unending, everlasting, for all time
&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; (iva Pla., Tim. 38b; Jer 39:40; Ezk 37:26; 2 Th 2:16; Hb 9:12; as v.l. Ac 13:48; 2 Pt 1:11; Bl-D. §59, 2; Mlt.-H. 157), on eternal (since Hyperid. 6, 27; Pla.; inscr., pap., LXX; Ps.-Phoc. 112; Test. 12 Patr.; standing epithet for princely, esp. imperial power: Dit., Or. Index VIII; BGU 176; 303; 309; Sb 7517, 5 [211/2 ad] kuvrio" aij.; al. in pap.; Jos., Ant. 7, 352).
1. without beginning crovnoi" aij. long ages ago Ro 16:25; pro; crovnwn aij. before time began 2 Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2 (on crovno" aij. cf. Dit., Or. 248, 54; 383, 10).
2. without beginning or end; of God (Ps.-Pla., Tim. Locr. 96c qeo;n t. aijwvnion; Inscr. in the Brit. Mus. 894 aij. k. ajqavnato"; Gen 21:33; Is 26:4; 40:28; Bar 4:8 al.; Philo, Plant. 8; 74; Sib. Or., fgm. 3, 17 and 4; PGM 1, 309; 13, 280) Ro 16:26; of the Holy Spirit in Christ Hb 9:14. qrovno" aij. 1 Cl 65:2 (cf. 1 Macc 2:57).
3. without end (Diod. S. 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 dovxa aij. everlasting fame; in Diod. S. 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their aij. …keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cf. Job 40:28). …On the other hand of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d qeou` zwh; aij.; Diod. S. 8, 15, 3 life meta; to;n qavnaton lasts eij" a{panta aijw`na; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3; PsSol 3, 12; Philo, …carav IPhld inscr.; doxavzesqai aijwnivw/ e[rgw/ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186-201. M-M.

Bauer, Walter, Gingrich, F. Wilbur, and Danker, Frederick W., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, (Chicago: University of Chicago Press) 1979.​

BIBLE STUDY MANUALS - AIONIOS -- AN IN DEPTH STUDY

&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962;
• Strong's - Greek 165

• NRSV (the uses of the word in various contexts in the NRSV text):
again, age, course, end, eternal, forever, permanent, time, world, worlds

• CGED (A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament, by Barclay M. Newman, New York: United Bible Societies, 1993, page 5):
age; world order; eternity (ap aion or pro aion, from the beginning; eis aion, and the strengthened form eis tous aion, ton aion, always, forever);

• The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology [NIDNTT], Volume 3 (edited by Colin Brown, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1978, page 827, 830):

In Plato the term [aion] is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and other earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.

The statements of the Johannine [John, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John] writings, … reveal a strong inclination to conceive of a timeless, because post-temporal, eternity… As in the OT [Old Testament], these statements reveal the background conviction that God's life never ends, i.e. that everything belonging to him can also never come to an end…

aion - &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957; - age, world
A. "for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity; the worlds, universe; period of time, age."

Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995, [Online] Available: Logos Library System.

• aionion, aionios – &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#957;, &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; - eternal
B. "aionios," the adjective corresponding, denoting eternal. It is used of that which in nature is endless, as, e.g., of God, (Rom. 16:26), His power, (1 Tim. 6:16), His glory, (1 Pet. 5:10), the Holy Spirit, (Heb. 9:14), redemption, (Heb. 9:12), salvation, (5:9), life in Christ, (John 3:16), the resurrection body, (2 Cor. 5:1), the future rule of Christ, (2 Pet. 1:11), which is declared to be without end, (Luke 1:33), of sin that never has forgiveness, (Mark 3:29), the judgment of God, (Heb. 6:2), and of fire, one of its instruments, (Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7)."
i. Rom. 16:26 - " . . .according to the commandment of the eternal God. . ."
ii. 1 Tim. 6:16 - ". . . To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen."
iii. 1 Pet. 5:10 - " . . . who called you to His eternal glory in Christ,"
iv. Mark 3:29 - " . . . never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."
v. etc.

SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, Available: Logos Library System.

• "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom. 16:26, and the other sixty–six places in the N.T.
A. Rom. 16:25 - " . . which has been kept secret for long ages past,"
B. Rom 16:26 - ". . . according to the commandment of the eternal God,"
C. 2 Tim. 1:9 - ". . . which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,"
D. Titus 1:2 - "the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised" long ages ago"

SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, [Online] Available: Logos Library System)

• Eis tous aionios ton aionion – &#949;&#953;&#962; &#964;&#959;&#965;&#962; &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#945;&#962; &#964;&#969;&#957; &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#969;&#959;&#957; - Forever and Ever, Lit. "into the age of the ages"
A. "unlimited duration of time, with particular focus upon the future - ‘always, forever, forever and ever, eternally."
B. Phil. 4:20 - ". . .to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever."
C. Rev. 19:3 - " . . .Her smoke rises up forever and ever."
D. Rev. 20:20 - "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

SOURCE: Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989, Available: Logos Library System.
[/font][/size]

What do Greek dictionaries say about "aionion" | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
 
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Based on historical evidence, below, the Hell:No! view being presented in this forum is not Biblical. The Jews, in Israel before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of unending, fiery torment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol. When Jesus taught about "Eternal punishment,""the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die," and "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth," that supported and validated the existing view of eternal hell. Jesus was born into and grew to maturity in that culture. He knew what His countrymen, the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong Jesus would have corrected them. He did not, thus their teaching on hell was correct. Here is historical evidence to support this.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).

But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).


Jewish Encyclopedia Online
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Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.

The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."

Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
 
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By Faith Alone

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Der Alter:

You posted MUCH unnecessary chaff. Lexicons, concordances and commentaries are our SERVANTS and not our masters. The SCRIPTURES are our Master:


Gen 1:1 In.... the beginning
1 Cor 15:24, 28
Then ..... the end.....that God may be all in all


So much for your "eternity" at every mention of the word. The Scriptures do NOT reveal that which is beyond that point in time. Eternity applies to those who are IN CHRIST and the principalities and powers that are reconciled. "The END" is the goal reached. Period.

Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the... carcases.... of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Carcases are..DEAD...people!


Matt 13:41-43 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather... out of his kingdom ....all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

We see in this passage that some will be cast OUT OF THE KINGDOM &#8220;into a furnace of fire; there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth&#8221; just like you said.
If anything was cast into a real furnace there would be no wailing and gnashing of teeth. They would be burned up. This furnace of fire is a figure of speech to enhance a reality. It enhances the reality of the suffering endured by those outside the Kingdom in the Millennial reign. Is it physical or mental suffering? The day will declare it.
The nations outside the land of Israel will not enjoy millennial blessings that those inside the land will enjoy. When some are cast out of the kingdom of Heaven it is that they are cast out out of the Land of Israel into the Gentile nations.
 
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Mediaeval

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Rajni

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A lot of stuff there.

I ask you. IF there is universal reconciliation or salvation...what happens to Lucifer?
It's my understanding that he would be restored as well.


-
 
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A lot of stuff there.

I ask you. IF there is universal reconciliation or salvation...what happens to Lucifer?

To echo Chaela, it was St. Gregory of Nyssa's view that all rational beings including Satan would eventually be subjected to Christ and that subjection to Christ equates to salvation according to Philippians 2 and to 1 Corinthians 15.

In Universalism Asserted, Thomas Allin quotes St. Jerome as "writing towards the end of the fourth century [commentary on Jonah 3]...'I know that most persons understand by the story of Nineveh and its king, the ultimate forgiveness of the Devil and all rational creatures.'"
 
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Der Alte

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You posted MUCH unnecessary chaff. Lexicons, concordances and commentaries are our SERVANTS and not our masters. The SCRIPTURES are our Master:

In other words your mind is made up and you will not be swayed by facts. The scriptures are our master. Please explain this scripture to me.
&#1496;&#1493;&#1489; &#1500;&#1513;&#1473;&#1502;&#1506; &#1490;&#1506;&#1512;&#1514; &#1495;&#1499;&#1501; &#1502;&#1488;&#1497;&#1513;&#1473; &#1513;&#1473;&#1502;&#1506; &#1513;&#1473;&#1497;&#1512; &#1499;&#1505;&#1497;&#1500;&#1497;&#1501;
&#1475;
You made some claims about the Greek word aion, and the Hebrew olam. Did you just make that stuff up or did you study something which defined those words for you? I quoted from the genuine lexicons, concorndances, etc. you have been taught wrong and your understanding is wrong. The evidence I posted before and the scripture I posted above proves this.

Gen 1:1 In.... the beginning
1 Cor 15:24, 28
Then ..... the end.....that God may be all in all

So much for your "eternity" at every mention of the word. The Scriptures do NOT reveal that which is beyond that point in time. Eternity applies to those who are IN CHRIST and the principalities and powers that are reconciled. "The END" is the goal reached. Period.

You have not explained how the scripture you quoted, Gen 1:1, 1 Cor 15:24, 28 proves this argument. The 12 words you quoted out-of-context says nothing about "reveal that which is beyond that point in time. Eternity applies to those who are IN CHRIST and the principalities and powers that are reconciled. "The END" is the goal reached." All I see is your unsupported opinion. Historical evidence, lexicons, concordances, etc. proves your opinions wrong. You are welcome to remain wrong.

Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the... carcases.... of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Carcases are..DEAD...people!

Thank you for this opinion. The Jews at the time of Jesus understood this verse to mean "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written." When Jesus taught about "hell where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched" that supported the existing belief. If the Jews were wrong Jesus would have corrected them.

Matt 13:41-43 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather... out of his kingdom ....all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

We see in this passage that some will be cast OUT OF THE KINGDOM “into a furnace of fire; there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth” just like you said.
If anything was cast into a real furnace there would be no wailing and gnashing of teeth. They would be burned up.

Are you saying that God cannot keep people alive in fire? If I recall correctly God caused a bush to burn without being consumed and He kept three Hebrew slaves alive in a furnace so hot that the people who threw them into the furnace were killed. The God I serve can do anything He wants to, any time He wants, any way He wants.

This furnace of fire is a figure of speech to enhance a reality. It enhances the reality of the suffering endured by those outside the Kingdom in the Millennial reign. Is it physical or mental suffering? The day will declare it.

This is a favorite cop-out of all false doctrines, whenever scripture contradicts a false doctrine simply say it is a figure of speech. Why stop there why not make everything a figure of speech? The angels are a figure of speech. They shall gather, that's a figure of speech. Out of his kingdom, a figure of speech. Cast them into a furnace of fire: a figure of speech. Wailing and gnashing of teeth, a figure of speech. But no people only calim things are a figure of speech when it contradicts their false doctrine. When did Jesus, or any of the apostles, explain that "cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth" was all a figure of speech?

The nations outside the land of Israel will not enjoy millennial blessings that those inside the land will enjoy. When some are cast out of the kingdom of Heaven it is that they are cast out out of the Land of Israel into the Gentile nations.

Zero scripture! Is this more of your assumptions/presuppositions?
 
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Der Alte

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PS:

THE TALMUD IS STRAIGHT OUT OF BABYLON!! That is the tradition of the elders of which had Israel in bondage and Jesus came to the lost sheep under the rule iron fist of the Pharisees.

Thank you for your unsupported opinion. The Talmud shows what the Jews believed before and during the time of Jesus. When Jesus knew that the Elders of Israel were wrong He corrected their teaching, "You have heard it said ... but I say to you..." When Jesus taught about "furnace of fire where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,""hell where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched" and "eternal punishment" it supported and affirmed what the Jews beleived about hell. Jesus did not correct the Jews and He never said His teaching on Hell was a figure of speech. My evidence which you ignored is in [post=65656362]Post #13[/post]
 
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