Thinking about creation.

Xeno.of.athens · Oct 4, 2024

When reading Genesis chapter 1 and 2 we're presented with a very interesting way of looking at creation, at first glance it looks like a simple chronological presentation of the order in which God created things, that is to say, creating light on the first day and so forth. However if you look a little bit more carefully at what is said in that passage there seems to be a split into three different parts the first part being the first three days the second part being the next three days and the last part being the seventh day, the Sabbath of rest. In the first part God prepares a world that will receive living creatures in the second part he populates that prepared world, and in the third part he declares everything that he has done to be very good and he ceases the work of creation and he rests.

1st day. The light.
2nd day. The atmosphere which divided the waters.
3rd day. The dry land.
4th day. The bodies of light.
5th day. The inhabitants of the air and water: the birds and fishes.
6th day. The inhabitants of the dry land: the beasts and man.

Time began with the world. Once nothing existed but the Eternal God alone. “Before the mountains were made, or the earth and the world was formed, from eternity and to eternity Thou art, God” ( Ps. 89:2 ). Why does not the Psalmist say, ‘Thou wast, God', instead of ‘Thou art, God?' Because God is Eternal. He is not subject to the changes of time, for with God there is no past, no future, nothing but an everlasting present. “I am who am”, God said to Moses ( Exod. 3:14 ). God exists of and by Himself. Everything else is made by God.

To be continued...

RandyPNW · Oct 5, 2024

Xeno.of.athens said:
When reading Genesis chapter 1 and 2 we're presented with a very interesting way of looking at creation, at first glance it looks like a simple chronological presentation of the order in which God created things, that is to say, creating light on the first day and so forth. However if you look a little bit more carefully at what is said in that passage there seems to be a split into three different parts the first part being the first three days the second part being the next three days and the last part being the seventh day, the Sabbath of rest. In the first part God prepares a world that will receive living creatures in the second part he populates that prepared world, and in the third part he declares everything that he has done to be very good and he ceases the work of creation and he rests.

1st day. The light.
2nd day. The atmosphere which divided the waters.
3rd day. The dry land.
4th day. The bodies of light.
5th day. The inhabitants of the air and water: the birds and fishes.
6th day. The inhabitants of the dry land: the beasts and man.

To be continued...

I've long wanted to understand the mind of God in His creation of the world we live in. As I see it, there may be those 1st 3 days, light, the atmosphere, and the land. These 3 appear to represent God's revelation upon the earth, the light, and our respective places in the universe, God in heaven and Man upon the earth.

The 2nd 3 days seem more focused on the world in which we live. The bodies of light indicate our specific time process. And we have upon the land both creatures and man himself.

The entire arrangement appears to show the dependency of earth upon heaven, our need for the light of God's word, our need for rain from above in the atmosphere, and the need for food in the vegetation of earth. We are given direction from the lights of heaven, creatures to inhabit the variety of spaces on earth, and our own purpose, being created in God's image.

Life comes from the Creator, but He has also created the earthly means of our sustenance. Most importantly, we were made to have fellowship with our Creator, giving Him glory for His creation and thanks for supplying us with our needs and purpose for living.

It's what we all know we have. But to know God's purpose we must know God Himself.

Diamond72 · Oct 5, 2024

RandyPNW said:
I've long wanted to understand the mind of God in His creation of the world we live in

We can have the Mind of Christ. I was in a church that the pastor preached hundreds of sermons talking about the Mind of Christ. He had a scripture for every sermon. Here are a few: A mind of kindness, courage, boldness, hope, stable, consecrated, dedicated, victorious, steadfast, joy, praise and so on. There are 52 weeks in a year so this series went on for at least 5 years.

1 Corinthians 2:16 is a notable verse: "For who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ." This suggests that, through Christ, believers can attain a deeper understanding of God's will and thoughts.

Diamond72 · Oct 5, 2024

RandyPNW said:
giving Him glory for His creation and thanks for supplying us with our needs and purpose for living.

There is NOTHING better than to worship and praise God with our fellow believers.

Rose_bud · Oct 5, 2024

Tim Mackie does a great work of unpacking the literary devices in the text to highlight how God ordered the creation. Creating firstly the spaces or realms, then the next three days the creations that would fill those three days.

But when it comes to humanity he does something even more amazing. He fills it with His breath, even though all creation have the breath of life. His image bearers are singled out as stewards of His work.

KevinT · Oct 5, 2024

Xeno.of.athens said:
When reading Genesis chapter 1 and 2 we're presented with a very interesting way of looking at creation ...

Time began with the world. Once nothing existed but the Eternal God alone.

The universe is a vast place, full of God's creation. We are not the only world God has created. Genesis describes the creation of our world, not the universe.

KT

Diamond72 · Oct 5, 2024

KevinT said:
Genesis describes the creation of our world, not the universe.

In the first verse of the Bible, in the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth. Both Creation and Heavens refer to the universe.

KevinT said:
We are not the only world God has created.

I believe there are other worlds but there are no aliens from other world here. You can not travel faster than the speed of light. The nearest planet on another star is 10.5 light years away. One thing we have to remember is everything on this planet depend on the size of our sun, the size of our earth, the distance we are from the sun. Chances are slim you could duplicate all of the conditions on earth to come up with life like we have here. Esp the moon has an impact on the planet also.

KevinT · Oct 5, 2024

Diamond72 said:
In the first verse of the Bible, in the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth. Both Creation and Heavens refer to the universe.

Genesis 1

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

This above could be of indeterminate time before the acts of creation begin on Earth. Yes, God created the heavens (the universe), but the timing is not given in verse 1.

2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

We have the declaration that this takes place in a "day". Some interpret this as an eon or age, but I'm OK with it being an actual 24 hr period. But that doesn't mean that the creation of the heavens had to take place in that same 24 hrs.

Diamond72 said:
I believe there are other worlds but there are no aliens from other world here. You can not travel faster than the speed of light.

In Daniel 9, there is a prayer written out where Daniel is confessing the sins of Israel. If one were to read this out loud, it might take a few minutes. When Daniel was actually praying it, it was probably more like 30 minutes. But then, in vs 21, we see this

21 while I was still in prayer, Gabriel, the man I had seen in the earlier vision, came to me in swift flight about the time of the evening sacrifice. 22 He instructed me and said to me, “Daniel, I have now come to give you insight and understanding. 23 As soon as you began to pray, a word went out, which I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed.

So we have an angel, technically "alien" to planet Earth, arriving in swift flight, with his travel time being 5-30 minutes. If the angel was already stationed on earth (Jesus mentions guardian angels on Earth), then Gabriel would not have had to travel faster than light. If the he was coming from some heavenly location, then we would have to think about wormholes or some other advanced technology etc.

Diamond72 said:
The nearest planet on another star is 10.5 light years away. One thing we have to remember is everything on this planet depend on the size of our sun, the size of our earth, the distance we are from the sun. Chances are slim you could duplicate all of the conditions on earth to come up with life like we have here. Esp the moon has an impact on the planet also.

I'm not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that conditions for life are uncommon in the universe, so there are not likely many other planets? It is very possible that God could create life that thrives in different conditions. We can't live under water, but God made fish to fill that biozone. The moons of Jupiter have seas of ammonia (I think), that God could likely create life to thrive in.

Best wishes,

KT

Diamond72 · Oct 5, 2024

KevinT said:
This above could be of indeterminate time before the acts of creation begin on Earth.

The laws of physics do set a limit on time. For example a zeptosecond is a trillionth of a billionth of a second. Nothing has been added from the beginning of time when the universe began to expand. The universe began as a singularity smaller than a mustard seed. Even now with entanglement everything is connected. Past present and future no matter how far apart they are.

The Bible is clear that God gives us the sun, moon and stars to determine time for us.

KevinT said:
I'm OK with it being an actual 24 hr period.

It is not that simple. At the north pole a day is 6 months. A day is not the same length everywhere on the Earth. At every moment in a day there is a sunrise and a sunset somewhere. Even the way the atmosphere bends the light waves sunrise is 2 minutes after we see the sun. Sunset is to minutes after we see the sun set.

We are very oriented to a time and a place. For God He is on the outside looking in and we are on the inside looking out.

KevinT · Oct 5, 2024

Diamond72 said:
The laws of physics do set a limit on time. For example a zeptosecond is a trillionth of a billionth of a second. Nothing has been added from the beginning of time when the universe began to expand. The universe began as a singularity smaller than a mustard seed. Even now with entanglement everything is connected. Past present and future no matter how far apart they are.

I misunderstood your prior post. I thought you were stating that the entire universe was described as being created on day #1 of creation of Earth.

Diamond72 said:
The Bible is clear that God gives us the sun, moon and stars to determine time for us.

It is not that simple. At the north pole a day is 6 months. A day is not the same length everywhere on the Earth. At every moment in a day there is a sunrise and a sunset somewhere. Even the way the atmosphere bends the light waves sunrise is 2 minutes after we see the sun. Sunset is to minutes after we see the sun set.

Yes, and also the earth is slowly decreasing its rotational speed. Lots of complicating factors.

Diamond72 said:
We are very oriented to a time and a place. For God He is on the outside looking in and we are on the inside looking out.

Agreed!

Kevin

Diamond72 · Oct 5, 2024

KevinT said:
I misunderstood your prior post. I thought you were stating that the entire universe was described as being created on day #1 of creation of Earth.

Day one was 8 billion years, day two was 4 billion years, day three was two billion years and so on. This is the only way to get the Bible to line up with the events that science tells us about.

KevinT said:
Yes, and also the earth is slowly decreasing its rotational speed. Lots of complicating factors

The earth is slowing down and the moon is moving way from the earth. The Bible talks about a perfect day but I am not sure when that is.

Yarddog · Oct 5, 2024

Xeno.of.athens said:
When reading Genesis chapter 1 and 2 we're presented with a very interesting way of looking at creation, at first glance it looks like a simple chronological presentation of the order in which God created things, that is to say, creating light on the first day and so forth. However if you look a little bit more carefully at what is said in that passage there seems to be a split into three different parts the first part being the first three days the second part being the next three days and the last part being the seventh day, the Sabbath of rest. In the first part God prepares a world that will receive living creatures in the second part he populates that prepared world, and in the third part he declares everything that he has done to be very good and he ceases the work of creation and he rests.

1st day. The light.
2nd day. The atmosphere which divided the waters.
3rd day. The dry land.
4th day. The bodies of light.
5th day. The inhabitants of the air and water: the birds and fishes.
6th day. The inhabitants of the dry land: the beasts and man.

Time began with the world. Once nothing existed but the Eternal God alone. “Before the mountains were made, or the earth and the world was formed, from eternity and to eternity Thou art, God” ( Ps. 89:2 ). Why does not the Psalmist say, ‘Thou wast, God', instead of ‘Thou art, God?' Because God is Eternal. He is not subject to the changes of time, for with God there is no past, no future, nothing but an everlasting present. “I am who am”, God said to Moses ( Exod. 3:14 ). God exists of and by Himself. Everything else is made by God.

To be continued...

The creation story is a wonderful revelation. It foretells of the coming of Jesus Christ into the world.

The chaos is the world before Jesus Christ came into it. Jesus Christ is the Light of creation. The greater light is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The lesser light is the Old Testament and like the moon does not create its own light but reflects that which comes from the sun.

The 6th day is Good Friday, the day that Jesus had completed all the works that The Father had given him to do and as the Gospel of John tells us Jesus' last words were "It is finished". He then rested on the 7th day.

Diamond72 · Oct 6, 2024

Yarddog said:
He then rested on the 7th day.

This was the only "24" hour day. He went into the tomb just before the end of the first day. He came up out of the tomb at the beginning of the third day. They call this good Friday and resurrection Sunday. Then 50 days later was Pentecost when the church was born or began with the Pouring out of the Holy Spirit.

Xeno.of.athens · Oct 6, 2024

Diamond72 said:
This was the only "24" hour day. He went into the tomb just before the end of the first day. He came up out of the tomb at the beginning of the third day. They call this good Friday and resurrection Sunday. Then 50 days later was Pentecost when the church was born or began with the Pouring out of the Holy Spirit.

Isn't it possible that all of the days can be treated as 24 hour days but that the story, as a whole, is that the seven days, including the Sabbath rest, are a rubric, so to speak, or a set of instructions for the explanation of creation, a bit like notes on a revelation that is primarily telling us God created the heavens and the earth and everything in them.

As an aside I noticed that you're a Methodist and that you have a little subtitle of dispensationalist and I thought, is there such a thing as a Methodist dispensationalists; it's new to me.

Xeno.of.athens · Oct 6, 2024

Xeno.of.athens said:
When reading Genesis chapter 1 and 2 we're presented with a very interesting way of looking at creation, at first glance it looks like a simple chronological presentation of the order in which God created things, that is to say, creating light on the first day and so forth. However if you look a little bit more carefully at what is said in that passage there seems to be a split into three different parts the first part being the first three days the second part being the next three days and the last part being the seventh day, the Sabbath of rest. In the first part God prepares a world that will receive living creatures in the second part he populates that prepared world, and in the third part he declares everything that he has done to be very good and he ceases the work of creation and he rests.

1st day. The light.
2nd day. The atmosphere which divided the waters.
3rd day. The dry land.
4th day. The bodies of light.
5th day. The inhabitants of the air and water: the birds and fishes.
6th day. The inhabitants of the dry land: the beasts and man.

Time began with the world. Once nothing existed but the Eternal God alone. “Before the mountains were made, or the earth and the world was formed, from eternity and to eternity Thou art, God” ( Ps. 89:2 ). Why does not the Psalmist say, ‘Thou wast, God', instead of ‘Thou art, God?' Because God is Eternal. He is not subject to the changes of time, for with God there is no past, no future, nothing but an everlasting present. “I am who am”, God said to Moses ( Exod. 3:14 ). God exists of and by Himself. Everything else is made by God.

To be continued...

Continuing...

If we look at these days as a set of instructions, so to speak, on how to teach the people of Israel about that great and mighty work of creation that involves not only creating the universe but also preparing it and furnishing it so that living creatures can exist in it.

So the first day, as described in Genesis chapter one, is the day that Moses set aside as instructor to teach the people about the creation of the universe. He says in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth and then he goes on and mention the creation of light; that's the first day, that's the first lesson to be taught to the people. After teaching the lesson the people who are being instructed could spend time asking questions and the teacher, Moses, could spend time explaining what God had revealed to him, thus making it clearer; after all, the idea of creating an entire universe from nothing is no small task. To make it clear that creating the whole universe was all done first and that only after it was all done did God begin to shape it and make it ready to receive living beings, is a lot of lesson for one day.

What I'm saying here is not new, what I want to do is treat the 24-hour periods as periods of instruction, the first day being the foundation Day where the foundations of creation are explained. Then the second day would be the day on which shaping those foundations is explained. And so on for the remaining days. So, Genesis chapter one is giving us the rubric for how to instruct the people of God about God's great act of creation. I'm not proposing this as a way of avoiding the idea of a Six-Day creation or a young Earth creation or an old Earth creation or any of the other typical things that people argue about when they're discussing the creation account. I'm just proposing it as a way of reading that first chapter and seeing it as kind of like the teacher's notes for how to teach the people that God created everything. The notes then would be telling you spend seven instruction days or periods telling the people these basic lessons in this basic order, first the creation of everything and light as the first accommodation of everything for the reception of living beings, then the second day would be the next part of instructing about accommodating the creation to the living things and so on. And after all of the accommodations are made in the first three days you can get on with populating the creation with living things, which happens on the next set of days. As a side note day four is a kind of intermediate day it is populating creation but in this case with the bodies that matter most to the people receiving the instruction that is to say the sun and moon and stars. These would be needed for the living things to have light and darkness alternating so that there could be a pattern of growth and life and sleep and rest.

I present this only as a personal reflection not as official Catholic teaching, it's just something that through the years I've heard variations on and I like the basic idea of treating Genesis 1 either as a kind of liturgy of creation where the words in the first chapter of Genesis are the rubrics for lessons that are to be presented in greater detail and orally to the people who are to be instructed. I think it's important to always keep in mind that the holy scriptures are given by God so that we can learn to know him and the things he has done and become his obedient faithful and good sons and daughters.

The Liturgist · Oct 8, 2024

Yarddog said:
The creation story is a wonderful revelation. It foretells of the coming of Jesus Christ into the world.

The chaos is the world before Jesus Christ came into it. Jesus Christ is the Light of creation. The greater light is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The lesser light is the Old Testament and like the moon does not create its own light but reflects that which comes from the sun.

The 6th day is Good Friday, the day that Jesus had completed all the works that The Father had given him to do and as the Gospel of John tells us Jesus' last words were "It is finished". He then rested on the 7th day.

This is quite accurate, and it represents traditional liturgical Christian views, whether Orthodox, Roman Catholic or liturgical Protestant.

ARBITER01 · Oct 9, 2024

Diamond72 said:
Day one was 8 billion years, day two was 4 billion years, day three was two billion years and so on. This is the only way to get the Bible to line up with the events that science tells us about.

Or maybe,..... you can look at the Genesis account as a re-forming of the earth in 6 days from a former chaotic state. Gap theory.

Diamond72 · Oct 9, 2024

ARBITER01 said:
Gap theory.

We know now the "Gap" is between when God created the Heavens or the Stars and when He created the Earth. That is why day one is 8 billion years. Where people really get confused is we see the stars in our atmosphere or sky and so they call the sky at night heaven because you can see all of heaven at night.

We put our telescopes in outer space now so we can study the universe without it being effected by our atmosphere.

Heaven in many spiritual and religious contexts is often thought of as a higher realm or state of existence, beyond the physical sky we see. Some traditions speak of it as a spiritual place where souls go after death, while others consider it a metaphor for divine presence and ultimate peace. In religious texts, heaven is often depicted as being above the earth, which has led to the common association with the sky or celestial realms. Interesting how different perspectives converge on this ethereal concept.

This is a part of why I tend to think Heaven is a planet somewhere in the Universe. In the Jody Foster Carl Sagan movie contact she used worm holes to travel to different civilizations in the universe. So Foster travels to a distant place in the Universe. Then she returns to earth with no evidence that she was ever there.

ARBITER01 · Oct 9, 2024

Diamond72 said:
We know now the "Gap" is between when God created the Heavens or the Stars and when He created the Earth. That is why day one is 8 billion years.

I would disagree.

Gap Theory is the understanding that the earth is actually the millions and billions of years old as science says it is, and that the earth was reformed/reshaped into what we have today approximately 6,000 years ago.

This understanding also agrees with science.

Diamond72 · Oct 9, 2024

ARBITER01 said:
I would disagree.

Gap Theory

I said NOTHING about Gap Theory. Like Theistic Evolution is really does not exist. Or has been poorly thought through. People put way more energy and time into YEC and OEC.

Gap creationism (also known as ruin-restoration creationism, restoration creationism, or "the Gap Theory") is a form of old Earth creationism that posits that the six-yom creation period, as described in the Book of Genesis, involved six literal 24-hour days (light being "day" and dark "night" as God specified), but that there was a gap of time between two distinct creations in the first and the second verses of Genesis, which the theory states explains many scientific observations, including the age of the Earth.[1][2][3] It differs from day-age creationism, which posits that the 'days' of creation were much longer periods (of thousands or millions of years), and from young Earth creationism, which although it agrees concerning the six literal 24-hour days of creation, does not posit any gap of time.

Thinking about creation.

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