They've had enough of church

OzSpen · Dec 28, 2014

A church leader alerted me to this article by Thom Schultz, The Rise of the ‘Done With Church’ Population. It deals with what is happening to some active Christians who are 'done with church' but not done with Jesus. Why don't you take a read. Schultz states that 'the Dones are fatigued with the Sunday routine of plop, pray and pay'.

Schultz recommends:

Pastors and other ministry leaders would benefit from asking and listening to these long-time members before they flee. This will require a change of habit. When it comes to listening, church leaders are too often in the habit of fawning over celebrity pastors for answers. It would be far more fruitful to take that time and spend it with real people nearby—existing members. Ask them some good questions, such as:

1. Why are you a part of this church?
2. What keeps you here?
3. Have you ever contemplated stepping away from church? Why or why not?
4. How would you describe your relationship with God right now?
5. How has your relationship with God changed over the past few years?
6. What effect, if any, has our church had on your relationship with God?
7. What would need to change here to help you grow more toward Jesus’ call to love God and love others?

It’s time to listen. Even as I’m writing this today, another high-capacity lay leader emailed me with his decision to leave his church. He’s done. Like many others I know, he’s also a nationally known Christian leader. But he’s done.

Your church, even if it’s one of the rare growing ones, is sitting on a ticking time bomb. The exodus of the Dones, the rise of the Nones and the disappearance of the Millennials do not look good for a church afraid to listen.

The Australian church leader, Bill Muehlenberg, who alerted me to this article has written his own response at: On Leaving Church. Does this concern you or your church?

In Christ,
Oz

miamited · Dec 28, 2014

Hi ozpen,

Thanks for the link. I'm one of the 'dones'. I visit around different fellowships from time to time and thoroughly enjoy the fellowship and worship. However, I have visited fellowships where, even though I'm sure some people there see that I am a stranger to their group, not a single person stops to say 'hi' or ask any questions of me. I have been to others where nearly everyone in attendance will make some effort to reach out.

I was a strong attender for many, many years and would never think of allowing a Sunday to pass without being in fellowship with a group in which I held 'membership', but...

The last fellowship in which I was a member caused me great concern in my heart. Let me first say that I am fairly knowledgeable concerning the Scriptures and when I sit under someone as leader I expect them to also be likewise 'knowldgeable'. We had a fairly fine pastor but he left. He was actually run out over money issues. Not that he took any money, but there were major issues about how the money was to be handled. How the money would be used and who would have the final say.

A new teacher was installed and he began a bible study which I attended and in the very first night that I attended made two fairly glaring mistakes in his presentation of the truth. Not a single person in the group said a word. I'll briefly give the example.

We were learning about the exodus from Egypt and the pastor was recounting the timeline and he said that the book of numbers explained that Moses had set up the temple and spoken to God there in the second month after they had left Egypt. He was attempting to explain how quickly God had set up, in Israel, their worship practices. He then referred us to the book of numbers 1:1. He read it and again made the statement that we could see that Israel had only left Egypt 30 days before.

Well, numbers 1:1 clearly says that Israel had been in the desert one year and one month, but no one said a word. He came to a point where he asked if there were any questions and I pointed out this error. When I brought up that my copy of the Scriptures says it was the second month after the first year, then many others in the group also voiced their agreement with my understanding. The teacher began to sputter and hem and haw and read it over and said that he would have to get back to us on the issue. It seems that his entire premise and support of his teaching was based on his understanding that it had only been one month after leaving Egypt that this event had taken place.

Well, I let it go and he continued and again made a fairly glaring error in his understanding of the Scriptures, although I must concede that at this moment I don't recall what the second issue was, but I recall that it was a similar error and again not a word was said by anyone in the group. At that point I decided that he really wasn't as knowledgeable as was required by me of someone in his position.

At another time in a sermon, speaking of the beginning of creation, he made a comment along the lines of: Now some believe that the creation event happened less than 10 thousand years ago. I made a comment to my son sitting beside me that it was more like 6 thousand years ago and that it wasn't what some believed, but the truth. Well, the new teacher's parents and wife happened to be sitting in front of me and a few days later I was called into his office and soundly redressed for making the comment and made to promise that it would never happen again. One would have thought that I'd stood up and interrupted his teaching before the whole congregation to offer the truth of the Scriptures to them.

There was another issue that came up in small group quite a bit earlier in my time with that fellowship, but it was regarding the beliefs of a small group lay leader who I don't generally hold to the same standards. I realize that they are just regular folk who desire to lead small group. This leader seemed to believe and support that there are other 'creatures' of God's design on other planets in the creation. I suppose we might call this the 'Star Trek' phenomenon. Television and movies have 'opened our eyes' to the 'truth' that there are other beings out there somewhere.

Anyway, when I was made to promise that I would never again correct some issue privately to my family made by someone who had obviously made several mistakes in his understanding of the Scriptures, I left. Not surprisingly, I have not received a single inquiry or note or other contact from anyone in the congregation wanting to know what had happened to me. I was just gone and no one seemed to care. There was one friend who did, after many months of being gone, ask me why I wasn't coming any longer.

Sadly, I am presently a 'dones', but I do miss worship and most importantly communion with a fellowship and my intentions are to find another body of believers to enjoin, but I am troubled by the attitude that a fellowship with which I had had a fairly long history and had supported and worked in choir and ministries with seemed to, as a group, have such little concern for someone like that who would just disappear from their midst.

Finally, I bristle at the term 'church' to describe the weekly gathering of believers. That we have baptist churches and methodist churches and catholic churches. It is my understanding that there is only one church and it defines the whole of born again believers all across the globe. The smaller local gatherings are merely 'fellowships' of the greater 'church'. A congregation where I attended in Miami when I lived there faced this issue and held a congregational vote to change the name of their fellowship from 'Perrine Baptist Church' to 'Christ Fellowship'. I suppose that monumental act made a lasting impression on my understanding of what one should properly call the smaller local groups of the 'church' that meet on Sunday or whatever day they choose to meet.

For all of these reasons, and a few others, I have joined the 'dones' for a season.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

miamited · Dec 28, 2014

Hi again ozpen,

Let me also add, for those who might be tempted to follow my example, that it seems that sin has taken a greater hold of me. I believe Paul's words that we should not forsake the fellowship of other believers is a truth that we should heed. I'm not sure that God cares whether or not we go to 'church' but He cares whether or not we love Him. The 'church', like the Sabbath, was made for man. We need the strength and encouragement and the sense of belonging that comes from worship attendance. Without it, we are like a single sheep alone and adrift in a wicked world. We need the accountability and the regular reminding of our 'membership' in God's family that comes through such attendance with other believers. There is honestly no greater joy for my heart, here on this earth, than when I am praising and worshiping God with a body of believers. I miss that.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

OzSpen · Dec 28, 2014

Ted,

Thanks so much for your thoughtful reply and your reason for being one of the 'dones' with church.

How important do you think Thom Schultz's questions are for church leaders to ask?

1. Why are you a part of this church?
2. What keeps you here?
3. Have you ever contemplated stepping away from church? Why or why not?
4. How would you describe your relationship with God right now?
5. How has your relationship with God changed over the past few years?
6. What effect, if any, has our church had on your relationship with God?
7. What would need to change here to help you grow more toward Jesus call to love God and love others?

You stated:

I bristle at the term 'church' to describe the weekly gathering of believers. That we have baptist churches and methodist churches and catholic churches. It is my understanding that there is only one church and it defines the whole of born again believers all across the globe. The smaller local gatherings are merely 'fellowships' of the greater 'church'.

Actually, this is not so. Verses such as Rom 16:5 speak of 'Greet also the church in their house. Greet my beloved Epaenetus, who was the first convert to Christ in Asia' (ESV). The small local fellowship is a house church - it is actually a 'church' according to this verse.

In Christ,
Oz

miamited said:
Hi ozpen,

Thanks for the link. I'm one of the 'dones'. I visit around different fellowships from time to time and thoroughly enjoy the fellowship and worship. However, I have visited fellowships where, even though I'm sure some people there see that I am a stranger to their group, not a single person stops to say 'hi' or ask any questions of me. I have been to others where nearly everyone in attendance will make some effort to reach out.

I was a strong attender for many, many years and would never think of allowing a Sunday to pass without being in fellowship with a group in which I held 'membership', but...

The last fellowship in which I was a member caused me great concern in my heart. Let me first say that I am fairly knowledgeable concerning the Scriptures and when I sit under someone as leader I expect them to also be likewise 'knowldgeable'. We had a fairly fine pastor but he left. He was actually run out over money issues. Not that he took any money, but there were major issues about how the money was to be handled. How the money would be used and who would have the final say.

A new teacher was installed and he began a bible study which I attended and in the very first night that I attended made two fairly glaring mistakes in his presentation of the truth. Not a single person in the group said a word. I'll briefly give the example.

We were learning about the exodus from Egypt and the pastor was recounting the timeline and he said that the book of numbers explained that Moses had set up the temple and spoken to God there in the second month after they had left Egypt. He was attempting to explain how quickly God had set up, in Israel, their worship practices. He then referred us to the book of numbers 1:1. He read it and again made the statement that we could see that Israel had only left Egypt 30 days before.

Well, numbers 1:1 clearly says that Israel had been in the desert one year and one month, but no one said a word. He came to a point where he asked if there were any questions and I pointed out this error. When I brought up that my copy of the Scriptures says it was the second month after the first year, then many others in the group also voiced their agreement with my understanding. The teacher began to sputter and hem and haw and read it over and said that he would have to get back to us on the issue. It seems that his entire premise and support of his teaching was based on his understanding that it had only been one month after leaving Egypt that this event had taken place.

Well, I let it go and he continued and again made a fairly glaring error in his understanding of the Scriptures, although I must concede that at this moment I don't recall what the second issue was, but I recall that it was a similar error and again not a word was said by anyone in the group. At that point I decided that he really wasn't as knowledgeable as was required by me of someone in his position.

At another time in a sermon, speaking of the beginning of creation, he made a comment along the lines of: Now some believe that the creation event happened less than 10 thousand years ago. I made a comment to my son sitting beside me that it was more like 6 thousand years ago and that it wasn't what some believed, but the truth. Well, the new teacher's parents and wife happened to be sitting in front of me and a few days later I was called into his office and soundly redressed for making the comment and made to promise that it would never happen again. One would have thought that I'd stood up and interrupted his teaching before the whole congregation to offer the truth of the Scriptures to them.

There was another issue that came up in small group quite a bit earlier in my time with that fellowship, but it was regarding the beliefs of a small group lay leader who I don't generally hold to the same standards. I realize that they are just regular folk who desire to lead small group. This leader seemed to believe and support that there are other 'creatures' of God's design on other planets in the creation. I suppose we might call this the 'Star Trek' phenomenon. Television and movies have 'opened our eyes' to the 'truth' that there are other beings out there somewhere.

Anyway, when I was made to promise that I would never again correct some issue privately to my family made by someone who had obviously made several mistakes in his understanding of the Scriptures, I left. Not surprisingly, I have not received a single inquiry or note or other contact from anyone in the congregation wanting to know what had happened to me. I was just gone and no one seemed to care. There was one friend who did, after many months of being gone, ask me why I wasn't coming any longer.

Sadly, I am presently a 'dones', but I do miss worship and most importantly communion with a fellowship and my intentions are to find another body of believers to enjoin, but I am troubled by the attitude that a fellowship with which I had had a fairly long history and had supported and worked in choir and ministries with seemed to, as a group, have such little concern for someone like that who would just disappear from their midst.

Finally, I bristle at the term 'church' to describe the weekly gathering of believers. That we have baptist churches and methodist churches and catholic churches. It is my understanding that there is only one church and it defines the whole of born again believers all across the globe. The smaller local gatherings are merely 'fellowships' of the greater 'church'. A congregation where I attended in Miami when I lived there faced this issue and held a congregational vote to change the name of their fellowship from 'Perrine Baptist Church' to 'Christ Fellowship'. I suppose that monumental act made a lasting impression on my understanding of what one should properly call the smaller local groups of the 'church' that meet on Sunday or whatever day they choose to meet.

For all of these reasons, and a few others, I have joined the 'dones' for a season.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

OzSpen · Dec 28, 2014

miamited said:
Hi again ozpen,

Let me also add, for those who might be tempted to follow my example, that it seems that sin has taken a greater hold of me. I believe Paul's words that we should not forsake the fellowship of other believers is a truth that we should heed. I'm not sure that God cares whether or not we go to 'church' but He cares whether or not we love Him. The 'church', like the Sabbath, was made for man. We need the strength and encouragement and the sense of belonging that comes from worship attendance. Without it, we are like a single sheep alone and adrift in a wicked world. We need the accountability and the regular reminding of our 'membership' in God's family that comes through such attendance with other believers. There is honestly no greater joy for my heart, here on this earth, than when I am praising and worshiping God with a body of believers. I miss that.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

I find that is more available to me in a mid-week small group than 'church' on Sunday.

pilgrim42 · Dec 28, 2014

OzSpen said:
A church leader alerted me to this article by Thom Schultz, The Rise of the Done With Church Population. It deals with what is happening to some active Christians who are 'done with church' but not done with Jesus. Why don't you take a read. Schultz states that 'the Dones are fatigued with the Sunday routine of plop, pray and pay'.

Schultz recommends:
Pastors and other ministry leaders would benefit from asking and listening to these long-time members before they flee. This will require a change of habit. When it comes to listening, church leaders are too often in the habit of fawning over celebrity pastors for answers. It would be far more fruitful to take that time and spend it with real people nearbyexisting members. Ask them some good questions, such as:

1. Why are you a part of this church?
2. What keeps you here?
3. Have you ever contemplated stepping away from church? Why or why not?
4. How would you describe your relationship with God right now?
5. How has your relationship with God changed over the past few years?
6. What effect, if any, has our church had on your relationship with God?
7. What would need to change here to help you grow more toward Jesus call to love God and love others?

Its time to listen. Even as Im writing this today, another high-capacity lay leader emailed me with his decision to leave his church. Hes done. Like many others I know, hes also a nationally known Christian leader. But hes done.

Your church, even if its one of the rare growing ones, is sitting on a ticking time bomb. The exodus of the Dones, the rise of the Nones and the disappearance of the Millennials do not look good for a church afraid to listen.

The Australian church leader, Bill Muehlenberg, who alerted me to this article has written his own response at: On Leaving Church. Does this concern you or your church?

In Christ,
Oz

It is probably true that many people are disenchanted with the church. There have been times that I have been in a church that wasn't doing much for me. It really is hard to satisfy everyone. Most organizations have the same problem.

The first step to take is to examine our own hearts. Are we having problems because we have lost fellowship with the Lord. Have we stopped praying? Have we stopped listening to Christian music? Have we stopped reading the Bible? Has our hearts just grown cold? All of these things are possible. Sometimes we just need to experience a personal revival.

The second step is to look at the church. Is the church preaching the Word of God? Is the church reaching out to the lost? Is the church missionary minded? Is the church offering opportunities for fellowship? Has the church embrassed liberalism? If the church is heading the wrong direction then maybe it is time to look for a church that is actually meeting the needs of the congregation.

The answer is not to abandon the church. The church is the body of Christ. We need His body. Its like taking a log out of the fireplace. In a few minutes it will cool off and there will be no fire. It needs the contact with other logs to stay alive. My fear for you and others who have drifted away from the church is that you will return to the world and possibly to the Devil. The Devil will provide all kinds of excuses to stay away from the church. Christianity is a "team sport". You can't do this alone.

Ken

OzSpen · Dec 28, 2014

pilgrim42 said:
It is probably true that many people are disenchanted with the church. There have been times that I have been in a church that wasn't doing much for me. It really is hard to satisfy everyone. Most organizations have the same problem.

The first step to take is to examine our own hearts. Are we having problems because we have lost fellowship with the Lord. Have we stopped praying? Have we stopped listening to Christian music? Have we stopped reading the Bible? Has our hearts just grown cold? All of these things are possible. Sometimes we just need to experience a personal revival.

The second step is to look at the church. Is the church preaching the Word of God? Is the church reaching out to the lost? Is the church missionary minded? Is the church offering opportunities for fellowship? Has the church embrassed liberalism? If the church is heading the wrong direction then maybe it is time to look for a church that is actually meeting the needs of the congregation.

The answer is not to abandon the church. The church is the body of Christ. We need His body. Its like taking a log out of the fireplace. In a few minutes it will cool off and there will be no fire. It needs the contact with other logs to stay alive. My fear for you and others who have drifted away from the church is that you will return to the world and possibly to the Devil. The Devil will provide all kinds of excuses to stay away from the church. Christianity is a "team sport". You can't do this alone.

Ken

Ken,

You have misread what I wrote. Nowhere have I stated that I 'have drifted away from the church'. That's your statement about me and it is incorrect. I currently attend a weekly church service and attend a weekly group - the group is in recess during the 6-week Christmas-New Year holiday period here in Australia.

Why don't many churches address the questions raised in this article?

1. Why are you a part of this church?
2. What keeps you here?
3. Have you ever contemplated stepping away from church? Why or why not?
4. How would you describe your relationship with God right now?
5. How has your relationship with God changed over the past few years?
6. What effect, if any, has our church had on your relationship with God?
7. What would need to change here to help you grow more toward Jesus call to love God and love others?

Oz

Bluelion · Dec 28, 2014

Oz,

I am one of the ones who has said enough of church. I think church reflect more of a cult today then the body of Christ. If you do this you are kicked out if you dress this way you are asked to dresses up which goes against God's word. There can be no different body parts in many churches to day every one much be a hand with the pastor as head. I know you see how this is not what God indented.

I have walked away from church many many times. i come back for a time only to have things said to me like I am not saved, or I did not give enough when I gave everything I had on me, and only had a few dollars in the bank. How many people if the had a thousand would 950 of it? That can be compared to what we gave. They told us not to worry about bills if we gave God would give us more. I don't give to God to get more I do it because I love him. I prefer to give to those in need. Frankly i don't think i want to lead a church, i think I want to write books, but what ever God has planed I will do. I am going into ministry. Its not a path I chose but God chose for me, in fact I have many other things i would do, but none that i love more or can compete to serving God.

One reason I don't go is I have no money to put in collection. Church has become pay to go, well I can not afford church.How sad is that. Also while I have suits and even 200 dollar shirts that have been given to me, I prefer to wear a tee shirt to church. I know God see my Heart and it does not matter what I wear and most people who are dressed up look good on the old side but corrupt with in. When I wear a suit i look complete different. I look like I have lots of money as I have nice suits. Everyone is so nice to me because they think I am rich and powerful, when I wear tees people show me who they really are.

If God leads me to a church I will go, I am a slave, but after a life time of being treated poorly in the church I have no need to go. My Body is the church of God, He lives in me at my core. My home is blessed for the study and prayers and worship we do of God in our home. But it is sad, because we ever i go to a church i feel like I am home. I can feel God there, but its the people who break my heart. I went to a funeral this year. As soon as I pulled up to the church peace came over me. We were early so we sat in the parking lot. I just looked at the top of the church I could see a white cloud. I felt God all around, think I even saw glimpses of Him. At the service a woman pastor over saw it, she was very good. I found my self reciting the lords prayer with the church staff. While most the family was not religious. I felt called to engage in the service even though it was staff preforming it. It was like God said to me show them you are mine, that was the feeling I had, and so i obeyed.

I love being close to God and can feel Him at some churches, but its the people. I think this is true with all who say done with church. They are not done with God but sick of worldly things with in the church. I think we all miss the church.

mikedsjr · Dec 29, 2014

I would never claim done with church, but in a sense I'm done with evangelicalism. My core belief is heavily LCMS Lutheran, but I attend a Baptist church. I actually just left a Baptist church after about 14 years of attending there. Several times I had been sent into a pastors office for comments on facebook about poor exegetical sermons, the minutes that had gone by before a single verse was read, or a worship song that was nothing but mystic mantras of about 5 words only. They told me since I was part of the audio visual team I was a leader and needed to stop. I did but my anger kept boiling until this year when I finally had peace that I'm not called to change minds. Later in the year my wife finally realized she was created out by some of the new directions in the church that allows people to worship how ever distracting they want and the has been some. With several pastors with charismaticism in their background now un the church, the feel of the church is more emotion instead of scripture based. Eisigesis was a regular thing in order to make a point.

I don't believe the doners are people who typically value Scripture. I think many of the doners not be chaff who claim to be Christian.

I personally don't care for the questions.i don't believe most Christians are discipled enough to understand why their reason is valid or invalid. If someone leaves church because of doctrine, they aren't part of the doners. They just might be fed up with evangelicalism, like me. I thankfully have found a church that's Baptist, which is my roots, and proclaims the gospel every Sunday. They also do some of the things a typical baptist church believes but I can live with it. Gospel it's proclaimed. People are being baptized. People are given the Lords Supper. But don't be surprised if I view sermons through law and gospel lenses, a Lutheran trademark

OzSpen · Dec 29, 2014

Bluelion said:
Oz,
One reason I don't go is I have no money to put in collection. Church has become pay to go, well I can not afford church.How sad is that. Also while I have suits and even 200 dollar shirts that have been given to me, I prefer to wear a tee shirt to church. I know God see my Heart and it does not matter what I wear and most people who are dressed up look good on the old side but corrupt with in. When I wear a suit i look complete different. I look like I have lots of money as I have nice suits. Everyone is so nice to me because they think I am rich and powerful, when I wear tees people show me who they really are.

Blue,

This is one of the blessings of living in a country (Australia) where giving to the church is not tax deductible. So the church can never know how much any one person is giving. It's a blessing because giving is then based on the heart and ability to give. Nobody is discriminated against or favoured, based on their giving or lack of giving.

Giving to tax-deductible charities is available Down Under, but not giving specifically in the election plate. I like that.

May the Lord help us to find a fellowship of believers where it doesn't matter what you wear. That happens best for me in a small (12-15 people) mid-week group where there is open participation even though the pastor leads the teaching. There is plenty of input from all of those who attend and who want to become involved.

And no offering is taken up.

Oz

abacabb3 · Dec 29, 2014

Giving up on assembling with other believers, what we call "going to church," is against the admonitions of the Scripture:

Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near. For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries (Heb 10:23-27).

This is why with much prayer, one must find other believing Christians to worship with.

OzSpen · Dec 29, 2014

Mike,

Thanks for sharing. You'd help me if I were able to understand the nature of the evangelicalism with which you are 'done'. What's going on there that makes it evangelical and yet not able to be endorsed by you?

I'm not convinced the 'doners' devalue Scripture but they are tired of the way church is being 'done' and the way they are being treated. For many of the ones I know, they tend to be older.

You state that 'I thankfully have found a church that's Baptist, which is my roots, and proclaims the gospel every Sunday'. I'm an Aussie who has lived 7 years in North America and I understand that this is the approach of many churches in your country that the gospel needs to be preached in the church service. I'm not of that view.

I believe the gospel needs to be proclaimed to non-believers who are outside the church and that the church service is for the worship, teaching and edification of believers. Therefore, in my part of the world reaching the lost is best done through evangelistic activities in the general community.

You need to understand that that is in my Aussie context. Not many outsiders come as pagans or non-believers to Bible-believing and teaching churches here.

Oz

mikedsjr said:
I would never claim done with church, but in a sense I'm done with evangelicalism. My core belief is heavily LCMS Lutheran, but I attend a Baptist church. I actually just left a Baptist church after about 14 years of attending there. Several times I had been sent into a pastors office for comments on facebook about poor exegetical sermons, the minutes that had gone by before a single verse was read, or a worship song that was nothing but mystic mantras of about 5 words only. They told me since I was part of the audio visual team I was a leader and needed to stop. I did but my anger kept boiling until this year when I finally had peace that I'm not called to change minds. Later in the year my wife finally realized she was created out by some of the new directions in the church that allows people to worship how ever distracting they want and the has been some. With several pastors with charismaticism in their background now un the church, the feel of the church is more emotion instead of scripture based. Eisigesis was a regular thing in order to make a point.

I don't believe the doners are people who typically value Scripture. I think many of the doners not be chaff who claim to be Christian.

I personally don't care for the questions.i don't believe most Christians are discipled enough to understand why their reason is valid or invalid. If someone leaves church because of doctrine, they aren't part of the doners. They just might be fed up with evangelicalism, like me. I thankfully have found a church that's Baptist, which is my roots, and proclaims the gospel every Sunday. They also do some of the things a typical baptist church believes but I can live with it. Gospel it's proclaimed. People are being baptized. People are given the Lords Supper. But don't be surprised if I view sermons through law and gospel lenses, a Lutheran trademark

Bluelion · Dec 30, 2014

OzSpen said:
Blue,

This is one of the blessings of living in a country (Australia) where giving to the church is not tax deductible. So the church can never know how much any one person is giving. It's a blessing because giving is then based on the heart and ability to give. Nobody is discriminated against or favoured, based on their giving or lack of giving.

Giving to tax-deductible charities is available Down Under, but not giving specifically in the election plate. I like that.

May the Lord help us to find a fellowship of believers where it doesn't matter what you wear. That happens best for me in a small (12-15 people) mid-week group where there is open participation even though the pastor leads the teaching. There is plenty of input from all of those who attend and who want to become involved.

And no offering is taken up.

Oz

the church I have been in contact with has a collection box and does not care about tees, so no one knows how much a person gives but God. I was going to go to this church as i like the 3 pastors who planted which was a Husband and Wife pastor and a friend of theirs also pastor, all had a masters in divinity, but they wanted to move on and planet churches else where and replaced them self with someone I don't really care for. It seems I am just not meant to go back just yet.

Bluelion · Dec 30, 2014

abacabb3 said:
Giving up on assembling with other believers, what we call "going to church," is against the admonitions of the Scripture:

Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near. For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries (Heb 10:23-27).

This is why with much prayer, one must find other believing Christians to worship with.

The true Church is the body of Christ its God's children, not a building of wood and stone.

Bob Carabbio · Dec 30, 2014

OzSpen said:
1. Why are you a part of this church?

It's the specific Church (Assembly of God, DeSoto, TX) that God set me in back in '03 when we moved into the area.

2. What keeps you here?

The original commitment, and a desire to "stay connected" with the Christian Community.

3. Have you ever contemplated stepping away from church? Why or why not?

I did that back in the '80s I found that without the "Stimulation" of regular attendance, I tended to sink deeper into my Selfish pursuits, and drift away from communion with God. Since our church is a "Struggling entity" I've thought about "Jumping ship" - but don't feel "Released" to do so. I'm also an elected member of the Deacon Board, so until the next election, "Jumping ship" isn't on the table. BUt I WOULDN'T "Jump out" of the Visible church completely - It wouldn't be good for me to do so.

4. How would you describe your relationship with God right now?

Good - not as close as it COULD be, but it's what I can do (to be brutally honest). I am what I am, and I do what I can do after 50 years of personal Christianity. I'm 72, still working full time, and slowing down -

5. How has your relationship with God changed over the past few years?

Don't know that it HAS changed all that significantly. there was an intense period of growth spiritually in the '70s, then an AWOL period, and now climbing back. It's not too much longer till the end, physically, so it's the "END GAME" leading down into death that's growing more significant, and the Church (visible Church) is pretty worthless in those issues "Visible Churches" are essentially "Businesses", that don't handle "REAL ISSUES" very effectively.

6. What effect, if any, has our church had on your relationship with God?

A little hard to quantify. I don't go to GET (in an intellectual way) since there's nothing TO "Get" that I haven't HEARD 1000 times - lots of WORDS, but no overt "POWER" in any of it, and just a "Business system" that has to be kept going for others, who "Say" that they're getting something out of it. Maybe they are.

7. What would need to change here to help you grow more toward Jesus’ call to love God and love others?

AH - THAT'S the question - I don't know. When we had the last pastoral change, my Wife left the church to go to another Aog in the area, and she seems to "Enjoy it" - whether it's doing her any ETERNAL "GOOD" or not - the jury's still out.

I'd probably jump to the "Cowboy Church" (Baptist) if I feel a release from the present one, since they seem to be the ones that are "Evangelizing effectively" here in Dallas, and the music's better (no contemporary noise).

OzSpen · Dec 31, 2014

Bob,

Thanks a million for such thoughtful responses to those 7 questions. I'd like to pick up on one of your responses that you find visible churches to be businesses. Have you attempted to do that at the local level or are people in your church not interested in addressing that? Or, do they not see it as church as a business?

When you say that visible churches don't handle 'real issues' very effectively, are you particularly thinking of the older ones and how to approach death or are there other matters that you would like to see addressed?

So the 'Cowboy Baptist Church' in Dallas is better because of its evangelism. Is the music also more cowboy? My son gave me Johnny Cash's biography, Johnny Cash: The Life by Ray Hilburn, as a Christmas gift. I'm a Jim Reeves, Johnny Cash and Slim Dusty (Aussie) fan from way back. Slim and his band did many concerts in our outback. The outback was in his blood.

May you have a blessed and happy new year.

Because of Jesus,
Oz

Bob Carabbio said:
It's the specific Church (Assembly of God, DeSoto, TX) that God set me in back in '03 when we moved into the area.

The original commitment, and a desire to "stay connected" with the Christian Community.

I did that back in the '80s I found that without the "Stimulation" of regular attendance, I tended to sink deeper into my Selfish pursuits, and drift away from communion with God. Since our church is a "Struggling entity" I've thought about "Jumping ship" - but don't feel "Released" to do so. I'm also an elected member of the Deacon Board, so until the next election, "Jumping ship" isn't on the table. BUt I WOULDN'T "Jump out" of the Visible church completely - It wouldn't be good for me to do so.

Good - not as close as it COULD be, but it's what I can do (to be brutally honest). I am what I am, and I do what I can do after 50 years of personal Christianity. I'm 72, still working full time, and slowing down -

Don't know that it HAS changed all that significantly. there was an intense period of growth spiritually in the '70s, then an AWOL period, and now climbing back. It's not too much longer till the end, physically, so it's the "END GAME" leading down into death that's growing more significant, and the Church (visible Church) is pretty worthless in those issues "Visible Churches" are essentially "Businesses", that don't handle "REAL ISSUES" very effectively.

A little hard to quantify. I don't go to GET (in an intellectual way) since there's nothing TO "Get" that I haven't HEARD 1000 times - lots of WORDS, but no overt "POWER" in any of it, and just a "Business system" that has to be kept going for others, who "Say" that they're getting something out of it. Maybe they are.

AH - THAT'S the question - I don't know. When we had the last pastoral change, my Wife left the church to go to another Aog in the area, and she seems to "Enjoy it" - whether it's doing her any ETERNAL "GOOD" or not - the jury's still out.

I'd probably jump to the "Cowboy Church" (Baptist) if I feel a release from the present one, since they seem to be the ones that are "Evangelizing effectively" here in Dallas, and the music's better (no contemporary noise).

abacabb3 · Dec 31, 2014

Bluelion said:
The true Church is the body of Christ its God's children, not a building of wood and stone.

No one called it a building. You can meet in the basement of a Holiday Inn and change where you meet once a week. THe point is you cannot forsake the assembling of believers for worship. And with this, you cannot forsake CHurch discipline that would be exercised over most of us from the elders of our local assembly.

OzSpen · Dec 31, 2014

abacabb3 said:
No one called it a building. You can meet in the basement of a Holiday Inn and change where you meet once a week. THe point is you cannot forsake the assembling of believers for worship. And with this, you cannot forsake CHurch discipline that would be exercised over most of us from the elders of our local assembly.

I agree that we can meet anywhere - even under a tree in outback Australia. When we meet together as a church gathering, why has so much of this been forsaken?

What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up (1 Cor 14:26 NIV).

When the church gets back to this kind of functioning, the 'Dones' may be persuaded not to be 'done' with the church gathering.

Oz

abacabb3 · Dec 31, 2014

The Holy SPirit has seemingly withheld the gift of prophecy, at least to the extent that would have been visible in the early church where congregants (likely elders) would sit in judgement between true and false prophecies. Further, I don't think merely changing the order of service (i.e. making the 15 minutes after the sermon for the time to wait for prophecy) necessarily fixes anything.

The same is true of the gift of tongues. There was a time where that gift obviously enabled people to speak in foreign languages and that the the tongue could be miraculously translated. This has also largely disappeared, and much of what passes for it in reality is much at ends of the orderly nature of worship presented in 1 Cor 12-14.

To me it is one of the biggest mysteries in the Scripture, as God never clearly announced He was going to turn the off switch with the closing of the Canon. I suppose it is His will for us to grapple with it.

OzSpen · Dec 31, 2014

abacabb3 said:
The Holy SPirit has seemingly withheld the gift of prophecy, at least to the extent that would have been visible in the early church where congregants (likely elders) would sit in judgement between true and false prophecies. Further, I don't think merely changing the order of service (i.e. making the 15 minutes after the sermon for the time to wait for prophecy) necessarily fixes anything.

The same is true of the gift of tongues. There was a time where that gift obviously enabled people to speak in foreign languages and that the the tongue could be miraculously translated. This has also largely disappeared, and much of what passes for it in reality is much at ends of the orderly nature of worship presented in 1 Cor 12-14.

To me it is one of the biggest mysteries in the Scripture, as God never clearly announced He was going to turn the off switch with the closing of the Canon. I suppose it is His will for us to grapple with it.

That is not the issue I am raising. If you want to discuss the charismata and whether they continue or cease, why don't you start another thread?

I Cor 14:26 states:

What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up (1 Cor 14:26 NIV).

When the early church gathered, it was for each of the people to participate. It was expected that this was a possibility for 'each of you'. It was not come along to hear the preacher with one-way communication. Participation is God's method and not closing down all of God's gifted people when the church gathers.

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