They Call It Roman

[TraderJack]

To set the record straight so that Protestants are aware of the facts when Roman Catholics try to say the suffix, "Roman" was added by Protestants to "Catholic" during the Reformation as a slur, the following facts demonstrate the Roman accusation to be entirely manufactured with no basis in fact whatsoever, and is in reality the opposite of the facts.






Pope St. Hormisdas: “What the Roman, that is the Catholic Church follows and preserves concerning free will and the grace of God can be abundantly recognised in the various books of the blessed Augustine, and especially in those to Hilary and Prosper, but the prominent chapters are contained in the ecclesiastical archives and if these are lacking there, we establish them.” (Sicut Rationi, AD. 520)

By the way, the churches in the east and africa objected strongly that any attempt to add a localized designation to "catholic" was a departure from and violation of the universality of the term.



Pope Innocent III, A.D. 1198-1216 (D423): "By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics but the Holy Roman Catholic, and Apostolic (Church) outside which we believe that no one is saved." (Profession of Faith for the Waldensians, Eius Exemplo)


Pope Clement VI, A.D. 1342-1352 (D 550 b,l): "We ask if you believe and the Armenians obedient to you, that no man of those travelling outside the faith of the same Church and obedience to the Pontiff of the Romans can finally be saved; [...and] if you have believed and believe that all those who have set themselves up against the Faith of the Roman Church and have died in final impenitence have been damned and have descended to the perpetual torments of hell." (Super Qibusdam)

http://www.romancatholicism.org/jansenism/tradition-eens.htm


http://ourladyofsorrow.org/news/?p=43

Rome has been calling it's church "the Roman Catholic" church or the "Roman faith" for centuries prior to the Reformation. Therefore, the accusation that "Roman" was an addition by True Catholics during the Reformation as a "slur" is simply false, being contrary to the facts.

 

[Catholic Christian]

To set the record straight so that Protestants are aware of the facts when Roman Catholics try to say the suffix, "Roman" was added by Protestants to "Catholic" during the Reformation as a slur, the following facts demonstrate the Roman accusation to be entirely manufactured with no basis in fact whatsoever, and is in reality the opposite of the facts.

Nobody ever said that. So we shall truly set the record straight now.

What I have said before is that the the Roman Rite is just one of many rites in the Church, including the Byzantine Rite, Marion Rite, Armenian Rite, and many many more.

The Church is called "The Catholic Church": Period. The "Roman Catholic Church" only refers to the Roman Rite of the Church, but not to the Catholic Church as a whole.

Now the record is straight.

 

[holdon]

Trento gave an explanation why Rome:

The Christians expected to take control of the Roman empire. But if you get the Roman empire, you get all the infrastructure that goes with it. You get the roads, the mail system etc. With the conversion of Constantine, the early Christians acquired all this for the spreading of the Gospel.Now, I ask you, who still has Rome? ... and will possess it forever?Answer: The Holy Catholic Church
The Christians expected to take possession of the 4th kingdon, the Roman Empire, based on Daniel's prophecy and the conversion experiences of the rulers of the previous 3 kingdoms. As I previously noted, that why the popes into the 4th century were all martyred in Rome. They were working towards that end; taking possession of the Roman Empire. Once it happened, with Constantine, the Church was able to make use of all the infrastructure of the empire to spread the Gospel worldwide. The sudden shift in focus and ability, causes some to mistakenly claim that the post Constantine Church is the emergence of the Catholic Church.

From: http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=43769767&postcount=224

 

[Albion]

The word "Roman" is included in the legal name of the Church in the USA--or was, as of the 20th century. It's not a Reformation-era Protestant slur, therefore.

The specific term, 'Roman Catholic,' gained popularity several centuries ago in order to keep the various Catholic churches separate when discussing them, but the use of the word 'Roman,' as in 'Roman Church' or 'Church of Rome' is, as said, very old. But as was shown, even 'Roman Catholic' was used by Rome itself at an early time.

 

[TraderJack]

Originally Posted by TraderJack
To set the record straight so that Protestants are aware of the facts when Roman Catholics try to say the suffix, "Roman" was added by Protestants to "Catholic" during the Reformation as a slur, the following facts demonstrate the Roman accusation to be entirely manufactured with no basis in fact whatsoever, and is in reality the opposite of the facts.

Nobody ever said that.

I see, so you see all, hear all and know all.

Must be in order for you to say, "nobody ever said that".

I'ts not a good idea to think of one's self as all knowing, all seeing and all hearing. It tends to make one look irrational.

What I have said

Does the OP address YOU PERSONALLY?


No it doesn't. So your answer is a non sequitur.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The word "Roman" is included in the legal name of the Church in the USA--or was, as of the 20th century. It's not a Reformation-era Protestant slur, therefore.

The specific term, 'Roman Catholic,' gained popularity several centuries ago in order to keep the various Catholic churches separate when discussing them, but the use of the word 'Roman,' as in 'Roman Church' or 'Church of Rome' is, as said, very old. But as was shown, even 'Roman Catholic' was used by Rome itself at an early time.

Btw, when was the Denari stopped being used as Roman currency?

http://www.scripture4all.org/

John 11:48 "If-ever we may be be letting Him thus, all shall be believing in Him.
And shall be coming the Romans/rwmaioi <4514> and they shall be taking away of Us and the Place and the Nation.

Reve 6:6 And I hear as a-sound in midst of the four living-ones, saying: "choinex of grain of Denarius/dhnariou <1220> and three choinex of barleys of Denarius/dhnariou <1220> and the olive-oil and the wine no you should be injuring".

1220. denarion day-nar'-ee-on of Latin origin; a denarius (or ten asses):--pence, penny(-worth).
AV - penny 9, pence 5, pennyworth 2; 16 denarius = "containing ten"
1) A Roman silver coin in NT time. It took its name from it being equal to ten "asses", a number after 217 B.C. increased to sixteen (about 3.898 grams or .1375 oz.).
It was the principal silver coin of the Roman empire. From the parable of the labourers in the vineyard, it would seem that a denarius was then the ordinary pay for a day's wages. (Mt. 20:2-13)

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

bump.....Interesting thread.

Originally Posted by TraderJack
To set the record straight so that Protestants are aware of the facts when Roman Catholics try to say the suffix, "Roman" was added by Protestants to "Catholic" during the Reformation as a slur, the following facts demonstrate the Roman accusation to be entirely manufactured with no basis in fact whatsoever, and is in reality the opposite of the facts.

 

[lionroar0]

http://www.romancatholicism.org/jansenism/tradition-eens.htm

http://www.romancatholicism.org/jans...ition-eens.htm


http://ourladyofsorrow.org/news/?p=43http://www.romancatholicism.org/jansenism/tradition-eens.htm

http://www.romancatholicism.org/jansenism/tradition-eens.htmhttp://www.romancatholicism.org/jansenism/tradition-eens.htmhttp://www.romancatholicism.org/jansenism/tradition-eens.htm

Yep let's set the record straight. I agree.

These are schismatic sites. According to them the Pope is a heretic and everyone except them are going to hell.

Peace

 

[simonthezealot]

Yep let's set the record straight. I agree.

These are schismatic sites. According to them the Pope is a heretic and everyone except them are going to hell.

Peace

http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/pope0259r.htm
see (3).

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Any RC or Orthodox like to respond to post # 6? Thanks.

 

[Albion]

Yep let's set the record straight. I agree.

These are schismatic sites. According to them the Pope is a heretic and everyone except them are going to hell.

Peace

What you think of their doctrinal positions really doesn't change anything.

If you have reason to think that the quotations are bogus, you'll need to explain that. Otherwise, for anyone merely to be a Christian of a different denomination doesn't matter.

 

[mont974x4]

http://www.romancatholicism.org/jansenism/tradition-eens.htm

Yep let's set the record straight. I agree.

These are schismatic sites. According to them the Pope is a heretic and everyone except them are going to hell.

Peace

That's funny, since the pope says similar things about people who won't submit to his self ordained authority.

 

[Rick Otto]

Yep let's set the record straight. I agree.

These are schismatic sites. According to them the Pope is a heretic and everyone except them are going to hell.

Peace

This doesn't invite schism?:

"Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

Pure Papal Bull, specificaly, Unam Sanctum.

 

[Montalban]

To set the record straight so that Protestants are aware of the facts when Roman Catholics try to say the suffix, "Roman" was added by Protestants to "Catholic" during the Reformation as a slur, the following facts demonstrate the Roman accusation to be entirely manufactured with no basis in fact whatsoever, and is in reality the opposite of the facts.

Also, Catholic when it was first used by Chrisitans meant 'complete', not universal.

Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans
"Chapter VIII.-Let Nothing Be Done Without the Bishop.

See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid"

Interestingly no one should be called universal bishop. It is a remnant of the earlier church teaching about no one assuming almighty offices. But the Church in Rome has already by this time moved further away from the primitive church. It is a stepping-stone/phase in the development of the Papacy.
Compare this with
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishop_of_Rome

The Catholic argument is
"Gregory the Great condemned the title universal bishop in the sense of meaning that all other bishops are not really bishops, but mere agents of the one Bishop, a concept that is blatantly contrary to Catholic teaching, which holds that all bishops are by divine institution true successors of the Apostles. For he states:
For if one, as he supposes, is universal bishop, it remains that you are not bishops.

{Epistle LXVIII}"
http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ152.HTM
Which is in fact contrasted by Catholic teaching that makes the bishop of Rome more equal than all others, and that all others are dependent on their office to him.
Compare the early church with this. A bishop is supreme in his diocese. No one above him but Jesus. In the RC Church every bishop however can be undermined by one bishop, that of the bishop of Rome.
It's a legal fiction that the RC Church maintains in order to pretend its bishops are the same; the idea lampooned in another and un-related work "Some are more equal than others".*
936 The Lord made St. Peter the visible foundation of his Church. He entrusted the keys of the Church to him. The bishop of the Church of Rome, successor to St. Peter, is "head of the college of bishops, the Vicar of Christ and Pastor of the universal Church on earth" (CIC, can. 331).
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/936.htm
There's only one "Vicar of Christ" and only one "Pastor" of the universal church. It's simply playing with words; universal bishop or universal pastor.
882 The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter's successor, "is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful." "For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered."
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/882.htm

 

[Rhamiel]

cool
Roman Catholic Church
I am cool with that, I will call it the Catholic Church but if you say Roman Catholic I will still know what you are talking about.

 

[lionroar0]

cool
Roman Catholic Church
I am cool with that, I will call it the Catholic Church but if you say Roman Catholic I will still know what you are talking about.

For those that belive no explanation is necessary. For those that don't no explanation will be satisfactory.

Peace

 

[Rick Otto]

For those that belive no explanation is necessary. For those that don't no explanation will be satisfactory.

Peace

LOL, nice prose, bro.
Well wrought.

My dad was very proud to identify himself as Roman Catholic (still is).
I rember when I was about 15, askin' him if he ever read The Bivle, 'cause I'd seen him read Plato & a lot of WWII history, but never scripture.
I vivdly remeber him sayin' "No, that's what the priest is for."
My heart sunk, but I knew better than to question or argue with him. I prefer to think his willful ignorance is about blind loyalty & not moral cowardice.

 

[lionroar0]

LOL, nice prose, bro.
Well wrought.

My dad was very proud to identify himself as Roman Catholic (still is).
I rember when I was about 15, askin' him if he ever read The Bivle, 'cause I'd seen him read Plato & a lot of WWII history, but never scripture.
I vivdly remeber him sayin' "No, that's what the priest is for."
My heart sunk, but I knew better than to question or argue with him. I prefer to think his willful ignorance is about blind loyalty & not moral cowardice.

Well after how many threads with the same topics..... Same arguments, same rebutalls...

Well after how many threads with the same topics.....Same arguments, same rebutalls...

Well after how many threads with the same topics.....Same arguments, same rebutalls......

It's like ground hog day.

Peace

 

[lionroar0]

This doesn't invite schism?:

"Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

Pure Papal Bull, specificaly, Unam Sanctum.

Conversely, protestant documents say the samething about their particular congregations. ei.. Westminster confession.



Peace

 

[lionroar0]

That's funny, since the pope says similar things about people who won't submit to his self ordained authority.

Find us a document from Pope Benedict that states that.

Peace