THEY are the 'seed' ...

[stranger]

Isaiah 65:23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.

Isaiah 45:25 In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

Jeremiah 46:27 But fear not thou, O my servant Jacob, and be not dismayed, O Israel: for, behold, I will save thee from afar off, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and be in rest and at ease, and none shall make him afraid

Acts 13:23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

It is I think thus clear from scripture that Jesus is OF the seed of Israel, the descendants of Israel, but the whole of Israel is the seed of promises from God, not just Jesus their saviour and messiah...

Thus modern apostate christianity simply has it wrong , there is no such thing in scriopture as 'spiritual; Israel, israel is Israel , descendants of Jacob as the above scriptures state...

The only complication is that even the Jews mostly think that they are the ONLY part of Israel, whereas scripyture makes it clear that Israel is still divided into TWO Houses, the visible House of Judah [the 'Jews'] ANF the largely invisible lost scattered sheep of the House of israel WHO NEVER WERE JEWS because they never joined the House of Judah, but had their own ingdom and line of kings until these were taken away ...

The House of Israel was alraedy paganised BEFORE being scattered by God amongst all nations and most could never took up Judaism , they most could not return to Jerusalem after captivity in Babylon and they ahd lost their lands... thus the House of Israel ceased to be a nation except in God's eyes ... hence we have the conundrum in scripture of a holy NATION that is NOT A PEOPLE :-

Deuteronomy 32:21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

Isaiah 7:8 For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.

1 Peter 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Thus we find that even by the time of Jesus that the lost sheep of the House of Israel have been fully paganised as 'gentiles' because they have been living amongst the gentiles for centuries , but Jesus is ONLY sent to the lost sheep of Israel, and sends his disciples preferentially to reach the House of Israel amongst the gentiles because they are those whom god chose from the beginning to become the priests and kings who will minister in God's kingdom come on earth [but NOT this earth, remember that Jesus' kingdom is not of this world , but is on the earth , thus it is in the new righteous earth that Peter describes]

Matthew 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ [messiah, annointed king of Israel].

Acts 7:42 Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness?

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

There is then no DOUBT whatsoever, the NT here explicitly states that the new covenant is FORGIVENESS for the House of Israel , they are no longer rejected as they have been, they are now holy and TAKEN as the people of God, and the enw covenant is ONLY with the House of Israel [paganised 'gentiles' , lost amongst the gentiles ] and the House of Judah ['Jews' , more visibly Israel ]

Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Thus Israel's TWO Houses, Jews AND paganised 'gentiles', all descendants of Jacob and named by son of Jacob in Rev 7:3-8 are prophesied by God's revelation to Moses to be the nation from whom all God's priests will come... the scripture shows that modern christianity has that wrong too by instituting its own priests from sinners who do not have all truth of God and knowkege of the the future as the saints have :-

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

But God's ROYAL priesthood [[1Pet 2:9-10] come from this lost holy nation who ceased to be a people but are just as much SEED of Israel, children of Israel, as the Jews, even though many have spent millenia as 'gentiles' amonst gentile nation.... they will be the KINGS whom the KING of kings rules over , but who do they RULE ?

Again Jesus answers this question [in Rev 7:9-10] , afterward the gentiles of all nations and beliefs are saved through hims, in his kingdom when Israel rules and men live righteously in the NEW earth BEFORE judgment

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[theFijian]

Thus modern apostate christianity simply has it wrong , there is no such thing in scriopture as 'spiritual; Israel, israel is Israel , descendants of Jacob as the above scriptures state...

Oh , God then has failed to save Israel. Well done on disproving the God of the Bible.

 

[stranger]

God has not failed to save [i.e. translate to spirit] Israel , He does not even begin until the return of Jesus...

 

[theFijian]

So nobody was saved before Jesus?

 

[stranger]

So nobody was saved before Jesus?

Well actually they were , according to scripture , one in every seventh generation from Adam has been taken as 'friends of God' in the same manner as Enoch, never seeing death :-

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

[Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints]

But many very obviously died as sinners without baptism of the spirit and without believing in jesus because they never even heard of him...

clearly God cannot judge men for disbelief before He has let them know about Jesus and His truth , these men obviously cannot be perfected and translated until after their resurrection in the new earth [the second resurrection, of the ujjust], and so that is the fIRST opportunity for God to fulfill His promise to baptise ALL flesh [Joel 2:28] bringing all men to know ALL His truth :-

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:

We know then that we who do not know all truth of God before our death also are NOT baptised of the spirit either, and so the hOPE of MOST people is in righteous living in the new earth during trial of our faith GIVEN there by God in spirit baptism

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


Righteousness is simply living by God's law of love [not sinning , being a saint] and Peter is telling us here that the many resurrected at the second resurrection, whilst they were sinners in THIS earth will be righteous in trial of GIVEN faith in love in the new earth BEFORE fair JUDGMENT ... God is just you see, He does NOT pre-judge on men's behaviour whilst Satan has power over almsot all men [Rev 13:3-7] in THIS earth

 

[Hismessenger]

Posted by stranger

It is I think thus clear from scripture that Jesus is OF the seed of Israel, the descendants of Israel, but the whole of Israel is the seed of promises from God, not just Jesus their saviour and messiah...

It is clear that Jesus came through the line of Israel but it is also clear they they are of the line of Christ. He was the firstborn of the creation and thusly all things consist by His will in God. There is a spiritual Israel because the word says that those who will confess Christ as lord, even though they are not of the natural bloodline of Israel are Israel. Does it not. So how can you say that there is no spiritual Israel when this is truly the basis of the church. All are gentiles saved by Grace who make up the church, spiritual Israel . It has always been about the spirit for the flesh profits nothing

Hismessenger

 

[stranger]

Posted by stranger

It is clear that Jesus came through the line of Israel but it is also clear they they are of the line of Christ. He was the firstborn of the creation and thusly all things consist by His will in God.

Yes, but - by God's will made manifest in him by the spirit of truth of God ...

There is a spiritual Israel because the word says that those who will confess Christ as lord, even though they are not of the natural bloodline of Israel are Israel. Does it not.

Well, no it doesn't ... here is what it says :-

Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 ¶ Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Thus it says exactly the opposite of whta you say, it says that some of israel are not Israel, NOT that those who are not Israel are part of Israel [which is tautologically false besides being contrary to the whole scripture ... see for instance Rev 7:3-8, ALL the firstfruit saints are of the tRIBES of Israel, descended from the sons of Jacob whom God said is Israel , no-one else whatever ... thus ,see above, God says "Jacob have I loved "... Jacob is the father of all who are of Israel because Israel is the name GIVEN to Jacob by God ]

Thus you and many people are trying to say that Gods word is inconsistent , but it cannot be so... it is a big mistake to use private interprteation of scripture that is inconsistent with other scripture... Israel s referred to throughout scripture and means the same throughout, it did not change its meaning... there is simply no mention of any 'spiritual Israel' in scripture, men made it up ... the very chapter that men used to invent they foolish anti-semitic doctrines actually iself explains that they are wrong, that is simple madness to ignore the rest of the chapter and misrepresent one phrase... one cannot get to the truth by ignoring most of what God has inspired just to promote anti-semitic propaganda of a divided christianity based upon Roman paganisation of doctrine and ritual ...

So how can you say that there is no spiritual Israel when this is truly the basis of the church.

That is easy, Jesus erxplained that Satan will and must control all the world as the antichrist, by creating a false image of christ and of god, that image is already with us in mankind's invented religion, but obviously it is inconsistent with scripture whilst Satan has to twist the scripture with wily half-truths to push through his agenda... thus it is INEVITABLE that christianity be pagaised and apostate at this time, Jesus predicted it would be so ...

All are gentiles saved by Grace who make up the church, spiritual Israel .

You only have to read the new covenant in Hebrews chapter 8 to find out WHO is saved by grace in THIS world ... it tells you ,even though you will not listen ...

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Hebrews 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
...
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

The Hoiuse of Israel and the House of Judah are the divided nations who together make up all the descendants of Jacob , the old testament describes the break up of the nation and how the House of Israel are paganised and scattered amongst the gentiles to live as gentiles in the world, but the House of Judah remain as VISIBLE Israel, the 'jews' ... but god has simply sifted the House of Israel through the nations, they MUST be re-united by the MESSIAH of Israel, the annointed king who joins the two houses into ONE holy nation of priests and kings in God's kingdom come in the new earth...

Why not read about it in the scripture instead of blindly accepting what sinners have taught you ??? It is the saints who have all truth to offer you, not sinners !

It has always been about the spirit for the flesh profits nothing

Indeed it has, but you have not bothered to find out that the spirit is given to israel FIRST and to all flesh afterwards ... so Israel are the servants of God sealed by the spirit , forgiven by their new covenant with God

 

[GLJCA]

It is I think thus clear from scripture that Jesus is OF the seed of Israel, the descendants of Israel, but the whole of Israel is the seed of promises from God, not just Jesus their saviour and messiah...

Thus modern apostate christianity simply has it wrong , there is no such thing in scriopture as 'spiritual; Israel, israel is Israel , descendants of Jacob as the above scriptures state...

The covenant promises made to Abraham and his seed, which is Christ, were unconditional. When God walked through the split animals alone it signified that He alone was obligated to keep the covenant between himself and Abraham and his seed, Christ.

So then why was the covenant conditional to the nation of Israel? Look at Gen. 17:14, and Deut 28. The promises of the covenant were conditional upon their obedience. If they were obedient God blessed them. If they rebelled God cursed them.

The nation of Israel benefited directly from the promises given to Abraham and Christ but never were those promises unconditional for them, consequently when they rejected the Messiah they were divorced from God and rejected by God, as His people.

The House of Israel and the House of Judah are the divided nations who together make up all the descendants of Jacob , the old testament describes the break up of the nation and how the House of Israel are paganised and scattered amongst the gentiles to live as gentiles in the world, but the House of Judah remain as VISIBLE Israel, the 'jews' ... but god has simply sifted the House of Israel through the nations, they MUST be re-united by the MESSIAH of Israel, the annointed king who joins the two houses into ONE holy nation of priests and kings in God's kingdom come in the new earth...

Did you miss the fact that the kingdom was taken away from Israel and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof? Today the nation of Israel is a heathen nation of AntiChrists. Today there is no Jew nor Greek. A lost Jew is no different than a lost Gentile and a saved Jew is no different than a saved Gentile. Jesus Christ broke down the wall of partition between Jews and Gentiles and created one new man.

Could you tell me how is it that you are claiming the promises that were given to Israel if you are not Spiritual Israel?
The promise of sins forgiven and remembered no more was given to the House of Israel(Jer 31:34) and Jesus Christ was the provision for that promise. Since that promise was given to the house of Israel how are you claiming it for yourself? If you are not spiritual Israel then you can not claim that promise.

The promise that the House of Israel could call God their God and He would call them His people(Jer 31:33) was not given to you, so how is it possible for you to be one of His people?

You and I, as believers, were grafted into the olive tree in Romans 11, which is Covenant Israel (Jer 11:16). There aren't two olive trees, one Gentile and one Jewish. There is only one tree, containing believing Jews and Gentiles. Whether you want to call us spiritual Israel or not we are the covenant people of God and we are abiding in the olive tree as Covenant Israel . We are drawing from the root(Christ) and fatness(covenant promises) of the olive tree. Granted I am not of the Jewish bloodline but the promises of God do not follow the Jewish bloodline. The promises of God are given to those of faith.
Rom 9:30-32 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;


Whether you want to refrain from calling us Spiritual Israel that is fine but you really should know how you are claiming the promises that were only given to Israel.

GLJCA

 

[stranger]

The covenant promises made to Abraham and his seed, which is Christ, were unconditional. When God walked through the split animals alone it signified that He alone was obligated to keep the covenant between himself and Abraham and his seed, Christ.

So then why was the covenant conditional to the nation of Israel? Look at Gen. 17:14, and Deut 28. The promises of the covenant were conditional upon their obedience. If they were obedient God blessed them. If they rebelled God cursed them.

The nation of Israel benefited directly from the promises given to Abraham and Christ but never were those promises unconditional for them, consequently when they rejected the Messiah they were divorced from God and rejected by God, as His people.

These things are TRUE , BUT you missed the REST of what God says WILL HAPPEN , that God NOW forgives Israel their past sins against Him in not keeping the covenant... here it is, in the new teastament of God's NEW covenant with the House of Judah [the Jews] and the lost sheep of the House of Israel [who have been living as gentiles for millenia now, since God scattered them] :-

Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Now THIS NEW covenant is with the ancient House of Judah and with the ancient but lost people of the House of Israel, God says so EXPLICITLY... it is indeed UNCONDITIONAL [check what Paul says here, there are NO CONDITIONS and he is repeating what Jeremiah said in jer 31:31-34 in the OT]

So the NEW covenasnt is unconditional and specifically with the two nations , the two HOUSES , of the still-divided nation of Israel, both the Jew and those now paganised as gentiles, scattered worldwide amongst the nations [as were the Jews too, but the jews were united by Judaism, the House of Israel never accepted Judaism and worshipped pagan gods all this time until now]

Why are they alone forgiven ? Simply because God will save His firstfruit sains of Israel to be kings and priests made READY to serve in the redemption process [perfection of love] of the many [Rev 7:9-10] AFTERWARDS in the kingdom of God in the new earth... so most men are freed from sin by DEATH, but the FEW who find the nARROW way of saints in this life NEED forgiveness of past sins because SOME of them will not die before they are translated at Jesus' return...

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Did you miss the fact that the kingdom was taken away from Israel and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof? Today the nation of Israel is a heathen nation of AntiChrists. Today there is no Jew nor Greek. A lost Jew is no different than a lost Gentile and a saved Jew is no different than a saved Gentile. Jesus Christ broke down the wall of partition between Jews and Gentiles and created one new man.

Again what you say is true, but is only HALF what the scripture says and creates a very misleading picture of God's truth because it omits half the story God has had written

Israel were indeed rejected by God , that is not in dispute, but you are simply ignoring that God also says that He WILL show the POWER of His truth by his spirit and take Israel as His people under His NEW covenant with BOTH Houses of the divided nation,

and indeed JESUS is the prophesied messiah [annointed king, christ] of Israel who WILL re-unite the TWO Houses into one holy nation is his kingdom... but Jesus' kingdom is NOT of this earth , it is of the new earth :-

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world

Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

----- Clearly christians do NOT reign on THIS earth and Jesus' kingdom is NOT NOW , NOT HERE , even though it is 'at hand' since men will see it after death and resurrection

The point then is that the messiah comes at his second coming only to establish the unconditional promise of God :-

Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

There is no doubt whatsoever that Moses is here referring to the descendants of Jacob, not anyone else ... !

Thus Israel are chosen by God, from the beginning, to be saved FIRST , and the many are saved AFTERWARDS [Rev 7:9-10] through the ministry of this holy nation of priests in the kingdom of God in the new earth...

there simply is no-one else but resurrected sinners to be ministered to by this nation of priests in the new earth...!

Thus Jesus will indeed save sinner Jews and sinner gentiles and the sinner House of Israel, but he will save the many gentiles after he has first redeemed Israel -Rev 7:3-10

Thus Israel are not to be discounted just because they were broken off the vine, paul states that they can be grafted back in and in fact take more quickly to the vine , and indeed he concludes that all Israel WILL be saved :-

Romans 11 :18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Thus again, israel is firts rejected, but then grafted back in , and ALL Israel shall be saved BY the NEW covenant which is ONLY with the two house s of the anciently didvided nation, God says so ...

So the mANY will also be saved, but the many go by the BROAD way through destruction in death that frees them from sins .... and so the many cannot be resurrected at the resurrection of the just [the first resurrection, of the saints of Israel who already died ] ,but the many are resurrected at the second resurrection, freed from sin in death not by any covenant , and perfected in love in the new earth in trial of faith GIVEN there by God according to His promise to all men [Joel 2:28] and many are REDEEMED at the great judgment of God, jesus thus saves sinners of Israel first to be priests and saves the many gentiles by USING Israel as a perfected priesthood to minister in his kingdom come in the new earth... it is a good plan, and God has written it, but most men do not understand it, not even most christians, because men are sinners and do not have all truth of God [ John 16:13] yet ...

 

[stranger]

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Could you tell me how is it that you are claiming the promises that were given to Israel if you are not Spiritual Israel?
The promise of sins forgiven and remembered no more was given to the House of Israel(Jer 31:34) and Jesus Christ was the provision for that promise.

We know that the House of Judah [Jews] are Israel, but we do not know who are the descendants of the paganised lost House of Israel whom God sifts through the natons and to whom alone He sends Jesus :-

Amos 9:9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Very few gebntiles know whether they are truly gentiles or simply the descendants of the lost scattered House of Israel , which becme not a people, yet still are the holy nation of God :-

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

---- And the role of these 'gentiles' who are indeed not gentiles at all, but the lost House of Isreal's descendants ? :-

Deuteronomy 32:21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

So just THINK a moment, how can a nation not be a people ? There is only one such nation in scripture, the House of Israel, the non-Jewish descendants of Jacob scattered amongst the gentiles and living as gentiles for millenia now....

Thus no-one who is not a Jew knows whether they are of Israel or not... unless they know their ancestry going back many millenia [as the Jews do]

Since that promise was given to the house of Israel how are you claiming it for yourself? If you are not spiritual Israel then you can not claim that promise.

No-one can claim that promise who is not baptised of the spirit into all truth [John 16:13] because all who follow Jesus WILL receive all truth in THIS life BEFORE Jesus' return and so be ABLE to perfect their love and be translated at Jesus' return [after resurrection of the saints who died in Christ, sinless ]

Thus I do not claim it for myself unless and until i am baptised and know that I know all truth of god and have perfected my love , become the image of the son of God , without further sin and forgiven past sin under the new covenant with Israel... if it happened then i wold know that i am descended from Jacob through one of his sons who is NOT Judah...!

The promise that the House of Israel could call God their God and He would call them His people(Jer 31:33) was not given to you, so how is it possible for you to be one of His people?

It is possible because most of the House of Israel NEVER became Jews.... they lost their lands and went into captivity in Babylon, but were unacceptable to the Jews on their release, they could not join the Jews in and around Judaea because they worshipped pagan gods and would not accept judaism...

Thus God scattered the House of Israel into all nations of the earth, they found new homes as if gentiles amongst the egnetiles of all nations .... and that is where Jesus sent his disciples to reach them with the good news that he is the annointed king of israel come to re-unite them with the Jews into ONE nation, a holy nation wholly made up of a royal priesthood to be perfected in love in THIS earth and MINISTERING to billions of sinners resurrected at the second resurrection in the new earth under jesus as king of kings then... all this BEFORE the great white throne judgement , so that jesu can indeed save many sinners of all nations and beliefs through their being given all truth in the new earth by god's promise to baptise all men eventually [Joel 2:28 John 16:13]

Thus men have been panicked into belief in what sinners teach, and ignore what the saints and Jesus have had written...

You and I, as believers, were grafted into the olive tree in Romans 11, which is Covenant Israel (Jer 11:16). There aren't two olive trees, one Gentile and one Jewish. There is only one tree, containing believing Jews and Gentiles.

Read the end of Romans 11 as well as just the start...

And there ARE two olive trees :-

Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Zechariah 4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?

But the olive trees are not even what you deny them to be... you simply have been listening to sinners far too long, and not relying solely on being taught by God through His spirit :-

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.[Jesus]

Hebrews 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour...

Whether you want to call us spiritual Israel or not we are the covenant people of God and we are abiding in the olive tree as Covenant Israel .

That would seem possible until one sees that EVERY follower of Jesus is led into all truth of God and knowledge of wehat is to come...

I do not as yet have all truth of God, and clearly much of what you say is deeply at odds with scripture and far from all truth of God... thus Jesus would conclude that we are not his followers, at least not yet...

and you would perhaps do well to listen this time to Paul's warnings at the end of Roman's 11 , instead of skipping over them...

We are drawing from the root(Christ) and fatness(covenant promises) of the olive tree. Granted I am not of the Jewish bloodline but the promises of God do not follow the Jewish bloodline. The promises of God are given to those of faith.
Rom 9:30-32 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Again you are misunderstanding scripture because you listen tosinners, not to the saints and prophets of God... what possible benefit could there be in beliefs based on the teachings of divided sinners ???

No my friend, read the scripture ITSELF more deeply and read it ALL and ask God alone to EXPLAIN it as a child asking humbly its father [not as one insisting that God agree with one's dogmas of belief from sinners]

Repent faith in men who do not have all truth and knowledge of what is to come... and realise how FEW are the saints who find the NARROW way of true belief

Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

STOP worrying about maybe being one of the many who go by the broad way through destruction in death because we KNOW that the many are saved AFTERWARDS since Jesus says so -Rev 7:9-10- and because Jesus says that he came to save sinners, but the FEW are saints, not sinners :-

1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; ...

Those who die sinners , none can be resurrected as just, one is justified through baptism of the spirit and trial IN LIFE to perfect one's love, just as did and do Jesus and the saints ... no man escapes that trial of faith IN LIFE , so sinners must perfect their love in the righteous [loving!] new earth under the ministry of the sainst and Jesus BEFORE judgment ...

there is simply no other way that Jesus can save sinners ... the key is to understand that saints STOP sinning and the new covenant covers PAST sins... now Jesus will cover the PAST sins of billions in the new earth , but he can only do so for the saints in this earth because that is the covenant and it is oNLY with the Jews and the paganised lost house of Israel...

Whether you want to refrain from calling us Spiritual Israel that is fine but you really should know how you are claiming the promises that were only given to Israel.

GLJCA

Like I say, examine yourself and see if you ahve received Jesus' promise of being led into all truth of God in this life and know what is to come OR NOT ... try to be honest with YOURSELF... then perhaps you will review and reprove what sinners have taught you by referring to ALL the scripture and asking God to teach you, not men...

It is not easy ... in fact it is unbearable, God's truth, to all but the saints... so call on Him and see if you survive by his grace, or not ...

Else simply admit that we do not measure up to Jesus' rather exact test of who follows him, [only those who CAN obey himas Lord and STOP sinning] and so are GIVEN all truth of God to be able to do so in spite of Satan's great power given NOW - Rev 13:3-7

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

 

[GLJCA]

These things are TRUE , BUT you missed the REST of what God says WILL HAPPEN , that God NOW forgives Israel their past sins against Him in not keeping the covenant... here it is, in the new teastament of God's NEW covenant with the House of Judah [the Jews] and the lost sheep of the House of Israel [who have been living as gentiles for millenia now, since God scattered them] :-

Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Now THIS NEW covenant is with the ancient House of Judah and with the ancient but lost people of the House of Israel, God says so EXPLICITLY... it is indeed UNCONDITIONAL [check what Paul says here, there are NO CONDITIONS and he is repeating what Jeremiah said in jer 31:31-34 in the OT]

So the NEW covenasnt is unconditional and specifically with the two nations , the two HOUSES , of the still-divided nation of Israel, both the Jew and those now paganised as gentiles, scattered worldwide amongst the nations [as were the Jews too, but the jews were united by Judaism, the House of Israel never accepted Judaism and worshipped pagan gods all this time until now]

Why are they alone forgiven ? Simply because God will save His firstfruit sains of Israel to be kings and priests made READY to serve in the redemption process [perfection of love] of the many [Rev 7:9-10] AFTERWARDS in the kingdom of God in the new earth... so most men are freed from sin by DEATH, but the FEW who find the nARROW way of saints in this life NEED forgiveness of past sins because SOME of them will not die before they are translated at Jesus' return...

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.





Again what you say is true, but is only HALF what the scripture says and creates a very misleading picture of God's truth because it omits half the story God has had written

Israel were indeed rejected by God , that is not in dispute, but you are simply ignoring that God also says that He WILL show the POWER of His truth by his spirit and take Israel as His people under His NEW covenant with BOTH Houses of the divided nation,

and indeed JESUS is the prophesied messiah [annointed king, christ] of Israel who WILL re-unite the TWO Houses into one holy nation is his kingdom... but Jesus' kingdom is NOT of this earth , it is of the new earth :-

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world

Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

----- Clearly christians do NOT reign on THIS earth and Jesus' kingdom is NOT NOW , NOT HERE , even though it is 'at hand' since men will see it after death and resurrection

The point then is that the messiah comes at his second coming only to establish the unconditional promise of God :-

Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

There is no doubt whatsoever that Moses is here referring to the descendants of Jacob, not anyone else ... !

Thus Israel are chosen by God, from the beginning, to be saved FIRST , and the many are saved AFTERWARDS [Rev 7:9-10] through the ministry of this holy nation of priests in the kingdom of God in the new earth...

there simply is no-one else but resurrected sinners to be ministered to by this nation of priests in the new earth...!

Thus Jesus will indeed save sinner Jews and sinner gentiles and the sinner House of Israel, but he will save the many gentiles after he has first redeemed Israel -Rev 7:3-10

Thus Israel are not to be discounted just because they were broken off the vine, paul states that they can be grafted back in and in fact take more quickly to the vine , and indeed he concludes that all Israel WILL be saved :-

Romans 11 :18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Thus again, israel is firts rejected, but then grafted back in , and ALL Israel shall be saved BY the NEW covenant which is ONLY with the two house s of the anciently didvided nation, God says so ...

So the mANY will also be saved, but the many go by the BROAD way through destruction in death that frees them from sins .... and so the many cannot be resurrected at the resurrection of the just [the first resurrection, of the saints of Israel who already died ] ,but the many are resurrected at the second resurrection, freed from sin in death not by any covenant , and perfected in love in the new earth in trial of faith GIVEN there by God according to His promise to all men [Joel 2:28] and many are REDEEMED at the great judgment of God, jesus thus saves sinners of Israel first to be priests and saves the many gentiles by USING Israel as a perfected priesthood to minister in his kingdom come in the new earth... it is a good plan, and God has written it, but most men do not understand it, not even most christians, because men are sinners and do not have all truth of God [ John 16:13] yet ...

Are you saying that the book of Hebrews was written to unbelievers?

Excuse me but Hebrews is not written to the heathen nation of Israel. Just a quick read will show you that it is written to Hebrew Christians and the writer is showing them that the promises of the covenant apply to them because they belong to Christ not because they are Jews.

In chapter one of Hebrews the writer plainly shows that the book is written to people whose sins have been purged by the blood of Christ. Israel's sins have not been purged because God makes it plain in chapter 3 that they will not enter into His rest.

He shows plainly in Hebrews 3:6 that he is speaking to those who are Christ's house, as he says, whose house are we. Israel is not the house of God, it is the Church of Jesus Christ.

More later....

GLJCA

 

[stranger]

Are you saying that the book of Hebrews was written to unbelievers?

I dunno why you have a problem believing what Paul says at the end of Romans chapter 11 , perhaps you would explain, because otherwise it looks like old-fashioned anti-semitism... the fact that many jews do not believe at this time that Jesus is their messiah doesa NOT mean that they cannot be brought into belief by the holy spirit even before the time of the final 'antichristos' ... Paul actually warns you of this mistake very strongly indeed and makes the definitive statement that all Israel shall be saved.... thus you are mistaken indeed to call them 'unbelievers' since we know from Paul that they WILL and MUST believe in Jesus in order to be saved and they will be saved ...

So why do you ignore Paul ???

Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Excuse me but Hebrews is not written to the heathen nation of Israel.

You do not seem to understand, the terms 'heathen' , 'gentiles' , and the 'nations' in scripture are all translated from a single word and it menas those NOT of Israel... Israel are the ONLY non-heathen nation !!

Zechariah 8:13 And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing: fear not, but let your hands be strong.

Just a quick read will show you that it is written to Hebrew Christians

You just contradicted yourself, surely Hebrew christians are of Israel and are believers, not unbelievers ...
Indeed all Jesus early disciples were Jews and believers, all of Israel and made saints by the holy spirit, very much believers of Israel , of the House of Judah, Jews who believe ...

and the writer is showing them that the promises of the covenant apply to them because they belong to Christ not because they are Jews.

Simply read the NEW COVENANT in Heb 8 ,BOTH the House of Judah [Jews] and the House of Israel [lost paganised scattered nation that lost its identity amongst the gentiles] are unconditionally forgiven , and ONLY these two houses of the anciently divided nation of Israel are forgiven in the new covenant .. read it CAREFULLY and see what God says :-

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

----Paul explains that Israel WAS rejected and the old covenant failed , but that is why they have a NEW [unconditional] covenant :-

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

---- So BOTH Houses are forgiven and that is why Paul says that all Israel will be saved , they will all believe in Jesus BEFORE he returns !! :-

Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

NOTE that it is Jacob who was renamed 'Israel' by God and it is Jacob's descendants , named the nation of Israel and divided into the House of Judah and the House of Israel who are saved under this NEW covenant with them... ONLY they are forgiven in this earth under this NEW covenant with them before Jesus' return

That is not to say that the many of all heathen nations are not saved too, we know that they are , jesus says so in rev 7:9-10, but they are not saved FIRST ... Israel are the firtsfruits because they are chosen from the beginning to be God's priests and kings in His kingdom come in the new earth

Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Thus all sinners from this earth cannot be resurrected until the second resurrection [of the unjust-ified] and Israel then serve as their perfect priesthood in the redemption of the many by trial of newly GIVEN faith in the new earth [for we know God will baptise all men with His spirit (Joel 2|;28) into all truth (John 16:13) but clearly most men did NOT know all truth in THIS life]

In chapter one of Hebrews the writer plainly shows that the book is written to people whose sins have been purged by the blood of Christ. Israel's sins have not been purged because God makes it plain in chapter 3 that they will not enter into His rest.

The first disciples are Israelites , Jews even , are baptised of the spirit and have their past sins forgiven under the new covenant and clearly will enter into God's rest... the new covenant is EXPLICIT , it is ONLY with Israel's two Houses into which the ancient nation of god was divided... that identifies precisely who are forgiven unconditionally in God's own agreement ... how can you doubt it ???

So it is Israel's descendants who are purged of past sins when they receive baptism of the spirit to lead them into all truth IN THIS LIFE .... most 'christians do NOT know all truth of God in this life, but will do when God fulfills His promise to EVERYONE else to baptise all flesh [Joel 2:28]into His whole truth [John 16:13], but that simply cannot happen until the new earth because many men died in sin and simply will not live until the second resurrection to recieve all truth from God and belief in Jesus...

Heb 3:7-11 is placed in brackets in the KJV indicating that it is a later editing , not the original text , a contamination of the words of Paul ...

And you interpretation of it is directly denied by Paul and the new covenant with Israel itself [also found in Jeremiah 31:31-34] :-

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

No-one disagrees that Israel WERE rejected by God for failing to keep the old covenant, but god says in MANY places in scripture that He will yet gather them from amongst the gentiles where He has scattered them UNITE the TWO Houses into one holy nation of priests with ONE king over them, the messiah, the christ, the annointed king of Israel ... that is good news not only for Israel, but for everyone, because Israel are made priests to SERVE all nations in the salvation of sinners of all nations in the kingdom of God in the new earth ,as i rev 7:9-10 AFTER the redemption of Israel as firstfruit saints from tHIS earth at Jesus' return...

That is why ONLY the few find the narrow way of obedience to jesus in THIS world , but the many travel the broad way through destruction in death... but we nknow from Jesus taht the MANY are saved afterward -Rev 7:9-10

It is a sensible and beautiful plan ,but oen that most men do not understand because they believe what sinners have taught, not what the saints and prophets have written in scripture....

He shows plainly in Hebrews 3:6 that he is speaking to those who are Christ's house, as he says, whose house are we.

Israel is not the house of God, it is the Church of Jesus Christ.

GLJCA

Israel is indeed the congregation of God in this world , all the saints are Israelites , as is Jesus... the misunderstanding comes from people not reading the OT and realising that the House of Israel have been living as if gentiles, amongst the gentiles for millenia now.... most gentiles do not know their ancestry that far back, do not know if they are truly gentiles or are in fact the lost House of Israel to whom alone God sent Jesus :-

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Amos 9:9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.

Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Matthew 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Zechariah 8:13 And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing: fear not, but let your hands be strong.

 

[GLJCA]

I am going to take this one part at a time.

I dunno why you have a problem believing what Paul says at the end of Romans chapter 11 , perhaps you would explain, because otherwise it looks like old-fashioned anti-semitism... the fact that many jews do not believe at this time that Jesus is their messiah doesa NOT mean that they cannot be brought into belief by the holy spirit even before the time of the final 'antichristos' ... Paul actually warns you of this mistake very strongly indeed and makes the definitive statement that all Israel shall be saved.... thus you are mistaken indeed to call them 'unbelievers' since we know from Paul that they WILL and MUST believe in Jesus in order to be saved and they will be saved ...

So why do you ignore Paul ???

I do not ignore Paul but I also do not just take part of what Paul said like you are doing. I am not antisemitic but neither do I say something that the Bible doesn't say.

Paul said that God did not cast away the people that He foreknew. Did God foreknow ALL ISRAEL concerning salvation? I don't think Dispys can say that. Paul says that it is the remnant that God foreknows concerning salvation. Read verse 5.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
He goes on to say that Israel has not attained that which it is seeking, which is a direct reference to Romans 9:30-32 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Who were the branches that were cut out of the olive tree?
For some weird reason Dispys seem to think that God cut all of Israel out of the olive tree but that is not what Paul said. Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: Paul said that the unbelieving branches were cut off. The believing branches remained in the olive tree as Covenant Israel. OT saints such as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, Solomon, etc. remained in the olive tree. God is not unjust to cut them out with the unbelievers. The believing Gentile branches that are grafted into the olive tree are grafted into Covenant Israel along with the believing Jewish branches making both into "ALL ISRAEL".

It is silly to think that those who reject Christ are believers. They are antichrists and they that die without Christ go to Hell.

I do believe that before the second coming of Christ at the end of the world many Jews will confess Christ and be grafted back into the olive tree, covenant Israel, and will be with the believing Jews and believing Gentiles in the same tree, as All Israel, for eternity.


GLJCA

 

[GLJCA]

You do not seem to understand, the terms 'heathen' , 'gentiles' , and the 'nations' in scripture are all translated from a single word and it menas those NOT of Israel... Israel are the ONLY non-heathen nation !!

If we lived in the OT you would be correct but since we are in the NT you are in error. The definition of heathen in Strong's is, "foreign nations not worshipping the true God, pagans, Gentiles". Today the nation of Israel do not worship the true God. The kingdom of God was taken away from them.
Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
What does that mean? It means that no longer is salvation of the Jews. It means that no longer are the Jews God's chosen people. It means that there is no difference between a lost Jew and a lost Gentile. It means that a Jew who dies apart from Christ will go to Hell.

You just contradicted yourself, surely Hebrew christians are of Israel and are believers, not unbelievers ...
Indeed all Jesus early disciples were Jews and believers, all of Israel and made saints by the holy spirit, very much believers of Israel , of the House of Judah, Jews who believe ...

There is no contradiction to say that Hebrews was written to the Hebrew branches of the olive tree that believed in Christ, not the unbelieving branches. The unbelieving branches were cut off because they did not abide in Christ and John 15 says that they were gathered up and cast into the fire. It could never be said that they were believers.

Paul is speaking of the believing remnant of Israel when he says that "All Israel" will be saved. All of Israel left Egypt but not All Israel entered the promise land, only the remnant that believed God. God said that all but the remnant would not enter into His rest in Heb 3, which means they went to Hell. Again, God did not cut the believing branches out of the olive tree only the unbelieving branches.

Simply read the NEW COVENANT in Heb 8 ,BOTH the House of Judah [Jews] and the House of Israel [lost paganised scattered nation that lost its identity amongst the gentiles] are unconditionally forgiven , and ONLY these two houses of the anciently divided nation of Israel are forgiven in the new covenant .. read it CAREFULLY and see what God says :-

Where in the world did you get that they are unconditionally forgiven. No where does the Bible say that those who reject Christ are unconditionally forgiven.

Please tell me where your forgiveness comes from? Doesn't it come from the blood of Jesus Christ, which is the blood of the New Testament or Covenant?
1Cor 11:25 After the same manner also [he took] the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me.
Now why in the world would Paul instruct the Gentile Church in Corinth to partake of Christ's blood, which is the blood of the New Testament, when as you say, it doesn't apply to them?

If only Israel is forgiven in the New Covenant then you, sir, are hopelessly lost in your sin.
Stranger, your argument does not make sense.

GLJCA

 

[GLJCA]

No-one disagrees that Israel WERE rejected by God for failing to keep the old covenant, but god says in MANY places in scripture that He will yet gather them from amongst the gentiles where He has scattered them UNITE the TWO Houses into one holy nation of priests with ONE king over them, the messiah, the christ, the annointed king of Israel ... that is good news not only for Israel, but for everyone, because Israel are made priests to SERVE all nations in the salvation of sinners of all nations in the kingdom of God in the new earth ,as i rev 7:9-10 AFTER the redemption of Israel as firstfruit saints from tHIS earth at Jesus' return...

Do you believe that God is going to resurrect from Hell all of the Jews that have rejected Him since the death of Christ?

Paul said that He is reigning today therefore Christ is King over His kingdom today.

The most requoted scripture in the Bible is found in Psa 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Jesus is seated on the right hand of God until His enemies are made His footstool. Paul told the Corinthians that Christ will reign until His enemies have been put under His feet. The writer of Hebrews says this again.
Heb 10:12-13 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

Paul shows that Jesus is reigning while all His enemies are being put under His feet.
1Cor 15:24-25 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

Israel is indeed the congregation of God in this world , all the saints are Israelites , as is Jesus... the misunderstanding comes from people not reading the OT and realising that the House of Israel have been living as if gentiles, amongst the gentiles for millenia now.... most gentiles do not know their ancestry that far back, do not know if they are truly gentiles or are in fact the lost House of Israel to whom alone God sent Jesus :-

What difference does it make if I am a Jew or a Gentile?

Paul says that there is no difference between a Jew or Gentile as far as salvation is concerned. There is no difference as far as condemnation is concerned. There is no difference as far as eternity is concerned, as both will be a part of the New Jerusalem, which is the bride of Christ, the Church.

GLJCA

 

[stranger]

Do you believe that God is going to resurrect from Hell all of the Jews that have rejected Him since the death of Christ?

It's not a matter for debate , the bible states that all are resurrected from 'hell' ['sheol', 'hades', from being 'unseen'] , both the just and the unjust :-

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Thus 'hell' is emptied of the dead at the second resurrection and ceases to be of any meaning because death too ends at that time, there is no third death after thei second death , so there is no need for hell after men are resurrected to the final trial, the lake of 'fire' [the evil-most trying to live with the evil-most and finding it doesn't work so well] :-

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Paul said that He is reigning today therefore Christ is King over His kingdom today.

I do not see Paul reigning on earth, nor Jesus for that matter, rather Jesus states that Satan is given power over all men [and religion of men] at this time, bar only the few saints.... [ and saints are not sinners...!] - Rev 13:3-7

I think that you have misunderstood, or been misled, Jesus says that the saints will rule ON EARTH, but NOT this earth :-

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world:

Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The most requoted scripture in the Bible is found in Psa 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Jesus is seated on the right hand of God until His enemies are made His footstool. Paul told the Corinthians that Christ will reign until His enemies have been put under His feet. The writer of Hebrews says this again.
Heb 10:12-13 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

Paul shows that Jesus is reigning while all His enemies are being put under His feet.
1Cor 15:24-25 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

There is no doubt that Jesus was annointed by Mary as king of Israel and rules over the saints of Israel at this time from on high, where two or three of them ever get together [for there are but a couple of thousand alive at any one time and they are scattered worldwide, no longer in congreagations since the seven churches were destroyed by secualr powers like Rome] ... thus Jesus rules the few God gave him to be saints [not sinning any more] in this earth , but he does not rule sinners , else they would obey him and not sin, not break his command to love ...

a single sin is enough to separate men from god and the new covenant only applies to the House of Judah [Jews] and the paganised lost scattere House of Israel, it says so ...

Thus only the saints are ruled at this time, the beginning of God's kingdom, but it does not come to the many until the new earth when Jesus rules over the king-priests of Israel and they rule over resurrected sinners who are ALL given all truth of God at last to be ABLE thus not to sin and to OBEY Jesus and perfect ther love before judgment...

Thus you mistake is to lsiten to sinners and ignore much of what Jesus and the saints and prophets of God have said ... sinners are simply NOT an authority on the truth, they are under satan simply because they are sinners... the churches are DIVIDED, so you KNOW that chrstianity does not have ONE truth, that it is apostate, fallen away ... only the saints stay true to ALL scripture, so one must attend to ALL the scripture to reprove what sinners teach , integrate ALL the scripture because it must be ONE truth, reject the teachings of denominationalists because they are divided and thus led astray by sinners ['founders' of sects and denominations] ... God's truth is NOT divided, chrsitianity is divided... use ALL the scripture TOGETHER to see His truth... do not cling to what sinners have taught you , reprove everything ...

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

What difference does it make if I am a Jew or a Gentile?

Paul says that there is no difference between a Jew or Gentile as far as salvation is concerned. There is no difference as far as condemnation is concerned. There is no difference as far as eternity is concerned, as both will be a part of the New Jerusalem, which is the bride of Christ, the Church.

GLJCA

Jesus records in Rev 7:3-10 that Jews and gentiles and the House of Israel are all saved eventually , BUT what you have missed because you listen to sinners is that the saints of Israel are saved first to be the priests who minister in the new earth in the salvation of the many of all nations... did you never read in scripture of the FIRST fruits of the spirit ?

Israel is not chosen to be the ONLY ones saved, just to be the FIRST ones of MANY saved ... and they are first not because of themselves [they are rebellious and were even rejected by God for millenia for not keeping their first covenant]... BUT God ha SAID that He WILL show the power of His truth by taking Israel as His people in THIS earth ... and they must therefore by PERFECTED in love as saints , giving up sin because of teh truth of God imparted by spirit baptism NOW , so that they can serve as priests and kings inthe new earth, ruling under Jesus as their lord and king to rule over and MINISTER to the MANY resurrected at the second resurrection [of the UNJUST] , so thatall men hhave the opportunity at last to live righteous lives there [since God has promised to baptise all men into His truth Joel 2|;28, John 16:13] and simply cannot do that until all sinners are resurrected :-

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Thus the MANY of all nations of Rev 7:9-10 find salvation AFTER the few by being saints [righteous, without sin] in the new earth , the MANY follow Jesus in trial of GIVEN faith and perfection of love , but NOT NOW...

BUt Jesus and the saints NEEDED to be perfected in THIS earth, in this life ,so that they could serve as perfect priests and kings in the new earth ... that is why God takes Israel now as His saints and leaves the many sinners without baptism of the spirit for now...

15 Behold, he withholdeth the waters, and they dry up: also he sendeth them out, and they overturn the earth.
16 With him is strength and wisdom: the deceived and the deceiver are his.
17 He leadeth counsellors away spoiled, and maketh the judges fools.
18 He looseth the bond of kings, and girdeth their loins with a girdle.
19 He leadeth princes away spoiled, and overthroweth the mighty.
20 He removeth away the speech of the trusty, and taketh away the understanding of the aged.

 

[theFijian]

You are interpreting the word 'sheol' quite incorrectly. It is the 'grave', the place where the body rests before it is resurrected. If you die having rejected Jesus then you are lost for eternity.

 

[stranger]

You are interpreting the word 'sheol' quite incorrectly. It is the 'grave', the place where the body rests before it is resurrected. If you die having rejected Jesus then you are lost for eternity.

Whilst 'sheol' [Hebrew OT] and 'hades' [Greek NT] are translated variously as 'hell', the 'grave', and the 'pit' , their essential real meaning is simply 'unseen' ...

At death the spirit returns to God who gave it and the life, the livingness ['soul'] ceases because it is no longer a body animated by the spirit :-

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath [spirit] of life; and man became a living soul.

Thus there is no soul [life] without the spirit , and the body returns to dusts, it usually decays and is recycled to the biosphere as food for flies and worms , in the grave or is cremated and turned to water and carbon dioxide in the atmosphere , taken in by plants and breathed by other life ...

Thus the body does not 'rest' in the grave , and the soul simply does not exist after death...

But god can restore both the body and the spirit in resurrection and thus the body can have life , a soul...

Thus scripture is quite accurate, the soul is unseen in death ...

As for eternity, this world was craeted , space-time was craeted ... time did not exist outside its creation, space was not created in time, but space-time is the universe and both space and time are created as one...

Equally when God destriys the earth and the heavens, it is the end of this universe and the "elements melt with fervent heat... space-time ends, time ends, space ends... there is thus no infinity of time , but what remains is TIME-LESS spirit , for God is spirit, not a thing in space-time...

In the same way that God can create a body and animate with Hs spirit to be a living soul [life] ,he can equally do that in resurrection of all , both the just and the unjust ... thus you are very wrong, the unjust, the sinners are resurrected too :-

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

The just are the saints of this earth , [those who STOPPED sinning during life through baptism of the spirit leading to all truth of God to be ABLE to see through Satan's wiles and resist temptation with empty pleasures in things of this world...] and they are thus the FEW who travel by the narrow way...

many of the saints will die and have died before Jesus returns , so God will resurrect them to the body at the return of jesus so all saints may be TRANSLATED to spirit at that time ... this is the time of the FIRST resurrection of the FEW who perfected their love in trial of their GIVEN faith duringTHIS life

So what of the many unjust , why does God even bother to resurrect billions of unjust sinners , the vast majority of all mankind that ever lived?

Quite simply Jesus came to save sinners, and the MANY of all nations who travel through this BROAD way through destruction of the body when this earth is destroyed by God ARE SAVED according to Jesus' own revelation from God the Father:-

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Thus you are very mistaken my friend by listening to what sinners say instead of listening to Jesus....

God does indeed resurrect sinners , and He also promises to baptise ALL men into all His truth , but he will save Israel FIRST so that they can act as perfect priests in the new earth ministering under Jesus in the salvatrion of the many who were sinners in THIS earth

Joel 2:28 ¶ And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh;

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is
come, he will guide you into all truth:

Thus all sinners from this earth WILL knwo all truth after the second resuurrection and be ABLE to resist Satan's temptations because they can see through them...

the mANY will live righteous loving lives in the new earth with a perfect priesthood ministering to them under Jesus and so PERFECT their love to be translated to spirit at the Great white throne judgment and so be SAVED...

So why does God only forgive the two houses of the nation of Israel in this life? [despite that he rejected them before for not keeping His old covenant - read Hebrews chapter 8 for the deatils of God unconditional acceptance NOW of Israel who rebelled and were rejected]

It is very simple, men are freed from sin in death, so sinners do not need the new covenant because they will all die, unlike some of the saints...

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.


Thus it makes far more sense to listen to what jesus and the saints and prophets of God ahve written than to listen to what sinners teach in this world...

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Hebrews 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

 

[stranger]

I am going to take this one part at a time.
I do not ignore Paul but I also do not just take part of what Paul said like you are doing. I am not antisemitic but neither do I say something that the Bible doesn't say.

I just wrote a whole load of scripture that shows very clearly that this is not true... and by simply examining the views of many others it is fairly obvious that you are deceived simply by following the taechings of sinners in the world instead of following ALL of what God elucidates in scripture through His saints and prophets

I am happy to explain, but you simply ignore
all the scripture that i have pointed to and refuse to have your acquired views reproved by it ... thus if you want to discuss then you have to be able to see the scripture that I quote, not just the bits that men have cherry-picked to attempt to support apostate doctrines of this world under Satan [ 2 Thessalonians 2:3,Rev 13:3-7]

Paul said that God did not cast away the people that He foreknew. Did God foreknow ALL ISRAEL concerning salvation? I don't think Dispys can say that. Paul says that it is the remnant that God foreknows concerning salvation. Read verse 5.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace

I certainly think you err by calling people names... it hardly brings men to the truth by dividing up 'beliefs' into sects and denominations anyway, but then calling each other names simply hides the obvious fact that BOTH sides are wrong ... it makes more sense to iNTEGRATE ALL the scriptue into ONE truth because God's truth is ONE truth and mUST include ALL scripture, not just the bits that endless sects focus upon ,ignoring the rest and making up reasons to do so...

Jesus makes it clear that the 144,000 saints are taken first as the remnant of Israel and that they are indeed the descendants of the sons of Jacob , listing them by 'tribe' of ancient Israel.. Rev 7:3-8 ... thus we KNOW that this is NOT any 'spiritual Israel' ,but in fact what it says it is, the remnant of ancient Israel's children taken first to be kings and priests .. just as God promised Israel in Exodus 19:6 through Moses

Jesus indeed confirms this :-
Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Peter also refers to the House of Israel , the only nation on earth who are not a people, as God's holy nation and as the royal priesthood of God :-

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

They are CHOSEN by God, you cannot change that, and God EXPLICITLY forgives them in His new covenant with ONLY the House of Judah and the House of Israel [Hebrews chapter 8]... they are identified explicitly, this is not any 'spiritual Israel' but the DIVIDED nation of Israel who Jesus came to re-unite under ONE king, himself ...

BUT Jesus redeems only the remnant first for the very obvious reason that MOST of Israel lived and died as sinners, not as saints [just as most christians!] ... one cannot enter into the spirit by TRANSLATION until one is PERFECTED during life ... translation to the spirit is ONLY from a living perfected body ... thus the saints who have died before Jesus comes are resurrected to the body before joining the few still alive for translation to spirit

obviously the remainder o israel cannot live again until resurrected and cannot take place in the resurrection of the just... since they are sinners and there are only two great resurrections, they will be the fisrt resurrected at the second resurrection because God ahs said that He will save ALL Israel and they will be a kingdom of priests ... so He needs them at the start of perfecting the many of all nations in the new earth..

No sinner is forgiven any but PAST sins, saying one believes in Jesus as Lord will not convince anyone, let alone God, if one is still a sinner at death ... sin is disobedience to Jesus and thus he is NOT the Lord of sinners... as many christians falsely claim that he is ... simply READ who are FORGIVEN in the new covenant, it is the House fo Judah and the house of Israel, not divided modern christianity...

That is not to say that most modern 'christians' are not saved, but simply that they cannot be perfected in love in this world , and thus have the same opportunity as all other sinners to live righteously and perfect their love in the new earth and so be translated to salvation in the spirit at the great throne judgment...

The point then is simply that God has sensibly CHOSEN to get His priesthood perfected and ready FIRST, that is all, no big deal... just straightforward sensible planning...

He goes on to say that Israel has not attained that which it is seeking, which is a direct reference to Romans 9:30-32 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

I already said, no-one is disputing that israel failed under the 'Law', under the old covenant , I do not know why you go on about a point that we agree about already... BUT why do you not READ the NEW covennant and see that Israel are FORGIVEN UNCONDITIONALLY in it , no-one else , but the House of Judah [Jews] and the House of Israel , BOTH the divisions of the nation of Israel unconditionally forgiven for NOT keeping the old covenant Law... forgiven now BY GRACE, UNMERITED forgiveness because God wishes to show the power of His truth by his spirit to take Israel as His FIRST fruits of the spirit... that through their ministry under Jesus the many of all nations are also saved BUT AFTERWARD - read Rev 7:3-10

Who were the branches that were cut out of the olive tree?
For some weird reason Dispys seem to think that God cut all of Israel out of the olive tree but that is not what Paul said. Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: Paul said that the unbelieving branches were cut off. The believing branches remained in the olive tree as Covenant Israel. OT saints such as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, Solomon, etc. remained in the olive tree. God is not unjust to cut them out with the unbelievers. The believing Gentile branches that are grafted into the olive tree are grafted into Covenant Israel along with the believing Jewish branches making both into "ALL ISRAEL".

I am not a 'Dispy' , so please forget your insane war with them here... this discussion will get nowhere in uncovering the actual truth revealed in scripture if you polarise your thoughts and ignore all the scripture that would reprove them to God's truth because you are having a war with people who are as mistaken as you are...

The ONLY believers are NOT those who SAY that they believe in jesus , but those who CAN obey Him as Lord ... Jesus COMMAND to the saints is to love , so any unlovingness is breakin his law, it is sin...

Thus sinners do NOT obey Jesus, he is NOT their Lord even if they like to say he is, because they do not OBEY because they CANNOT ... thus you ahve not even found out who are believers yet, most people who say that they are believers ae sinners and so Jesus is not their Lord and they are NOT believers at all..

ONLY the saints are believers then, and they became sainst by giving up their sinning ... thus only the House of judah and House of Irsael are saints and believers in THIS world because only they CAN give up sin and have their past sins forgiven under their new covenant with God..

How does God mediate this DIVISION of men at this time ? Simply by baptising Israel in His spirit NOW, but saving baptism of all flesh until it is required in the new earth, the fIRST time that all sinners are available alive to receive it :-

Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

Despite what many christian sinners teach, we kNOW that God has not baptised everyone yet, for many reasons , all our kids do NOT prophesy and have visons , nor are all men led into ALL truth of God in THIS life or know the future :-

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

It is silly to think that those who reject Christ are believers. They are antichrists and they that die without Christ go to Hell.

I do believe that before the second coming of Christ at the end of the world many Jews will confess Christ and be grafted back into the olive tree, covenant Israel, and will be with the believing Jews and believing Gentiles in the same tree, as All Israel, for eternity.

AND strangers CAN join themselves to Israel quite legally ,but very few will ... for the most part the 'gentile' saints are simply the paganised lost House of Israel ,that ceased to be a recognisable people, emerging from amongst the gentiles after millenia of living as gentiles and worshipping pagan gods...

[note that most modern 'christians' worship on pagan days too, not on God's holy days as defined in scripture ... most modern christians keep Easter, Xmas, eucharist, communion, all pagan in origin, not scriptural, and all IN PLACE OF the Passover that Jesus set as his remembrance day because it pointed forward to him from the beginnings in the OT prophets ]

Ezekiel 37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children’s children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.


Why argue against God ? Rather be taught by his words through his prophets and INTEGRATE His scripture into ONE truth rather than following sinners' words ...

 

[stranger]

If we lived in the OT you would be correct but since we are in the NT you are in error. The definition of heathen in Strong's is, "foreign nations not worshipping the true God, pagans, Gentiles".

The NT was written in the century after Jesus' death, we are clearly not in that century and the word 'heathen' did not change its meaning at in Jesus' life nor at his death

The heathen nations are indeed all nations foreign to Israel and certainly they all worship an image of God that is not the image presented by Jesus or the OT and NT scripture, all nations not either the House of Judah [Jews] or members of the lost scattered nation of the House of Israel amongst the gentiles] are heathen gentiles...

Modern christians mostly do not follow the days God set as holy to His people FOR ALL TIME and so are veryvreasonably described as heathen gentiles...

words translated as 'heathen' are used by Paul and Matthew in the NT to refer to the gentile nations ... it is fairly conclusive that you are wrong , but that so are very many other sinners who call themselves christians , who think that they are Israel because sinners told them so ...

but why believe in sinners instead of in scripture ?

Today the nation of Israel do not worship the true God. The kingdom of God was taken away from them.
Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

I dunno how many times I have to say that I agree with you completely on this one point, but that youare simply ignoring that it is the House of Israel, paganised as gentiles over millenia of living as gentiles, that are the holy nation who are "not a peole" who are first given baptism of the spirit and a remnant emerge as saints to ake the jews jealous :-

Deuteronomy 32:21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

Isaiah 7:8 ...within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

note - There is ONLY ONE nation who are not a people , who were rejected by God , but now are forgiven and taken as God's people , it is the HOUSE of Israel, paganised as if gentiles , lost as a nation, scattered worldwide...

AND Jesus is to be their KING , thus he was sent to reach them amongst the gentiles and sent his aposteles out to tell them they are FORGIVEN now :-

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 10:5 ¶ These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ [ Messiah, annointed king of Israel]

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
...
Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
...
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. !!!

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
...34 ...for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Psalms 98:3 He hath remembered his mercy and his truth toward the house of Israel: all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.

Jeremiah 3:18 In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers.

Jeremiah 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

Jeremiah 33:14 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.

Jeremiah 33:17 For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;

Jer 37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children’s children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

Ezekiel 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

Ezekiel 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Hosea 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

Amos 9:9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.

Zechariah 8:13 And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing: fear not, but let your hands be strong.

What does that mean? It means that no longer is salvation of the Jews.

Jesus and Paul disagree with your thus false conclusion :-

-1.- Jesus here describes the 12,000 of the TRIBE of Judah , ALL Jews, who are redeemed FIRST as servants of God after being saints in this earth ... not least, all the first disciples of Jesus were Jews :-

Rev 7 :3 ... till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand


- continued -