There's something about Mary.......

PilgrimToChrist · Feb 19, 2010

MamaZ said:
[Because Mary is the Temple of God, the New Jerusalem, the City of God, the Ark of the New Covenant, etc. Here, specifically, she is the Temple of God and moreso as the Living Temple rather than brick and mortar like the ones which were destroyed and now has laid fallow for the past 1940 years.

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This Statement here really confuses me..So only Mary to some is the temple of God? How can Mary be the New Jerusalem, the City of God? The City of God is not a person. The New Jerusalem will come down from Heaven and this is not Mary either.. Does she have streets of Gold? Someone has assumed Mary to be all these things. Scripture never calls Mary any of these things. In fact Mary is only mentioned in the Gospels and the first Part of Acts. Someone has deified Mary and set her up as some kind of Godess and then took scripture out of the its full context to try to make this exageration look more real..

Well, you could say that God deified Mary, yes. But you have to understand what "deification" means. You could say that Mary is a goddess, though that would be likely misinterpreted, as some have misinterpreted Jesus saying that "ye are gods". It is best to say simply that Mary is the creature most exalted in all of Creation, the closest to God. Martin Luther said that if he had as many tongues as there are blades of grass in the world, he could not say what it means to be the Mother of God. St. Louis de Montfort said that Mary acquired such merit that it would easier to count the stars in the sky, the drops of water in the ocean, that it would be to count the merits and graces given to the Blessed Virgin. I would not hesitate to say that it is a mystery to the angels and even to the Blessed Virgin herself, as God is infinitely greater than her and thus she herself cannot fully comprehend the infinite graces that He has given to her.

But God did not establish Mary in His place, nor as a Queen to be worshiped in His stead or alongside Him. God established Mary through her Immaculate Conception through her Co-Redemptive suffering and the sword which pierced her heart. He crowned her Queen in order to spread His Grace as Mediatrix of All Graces and shine the light of His glory into the hearts of darkened sinners as their greatest Advocate. God established Mary as the conduit through which He should come to the world and the world should come to Him.

In regards to Mary as the New Jerusalem, let us examine the Apocalypse:

Apoc 21:2-3 said:
And I John saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice from the throne, saying: Behold the tabernacle of God with men, and he will dwell with them. And they shall be his people; and God himself with them shall be their God.

Who is the Tabernacle of God? She who can say this of herself:

Sir 24:12 said:
Then the creator of all things commanded, and said to me: and he that made me, rested in my tabernacle

Again:

Apoc 11:19-12:1 said:
And the temple of God was opened in heaven: and the ark of his testament was seen in his temple. And there were lightnings and voices and an earthquake and great hail. And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.

This came to mind:

Ps 121:1-3 said:
I rejoiced at the things that were said to me: We shall go into the house of the Lord. Our feet were standing in thy courts, O Jerusalem. Jerusalem, which is built as a city, which is compact together. For thither did the tribes go up, the tribes of the Lord: the testimony of Israel, to praise the name of the Lord.

Anyway, I picked up the new Star Trek movie for $9 at work (and today, I bought the new Disney movie, "Up" for $9 also, w00t!). So we're going to watch Star Trek now. I'll respond further tomorrow on the "Sancta Dei Civitas".

PilgrimToChrist · Feb 20, 2010

(I had already seen "Star Trek" but only on the laptop, unfortunately, my parents saw it in the theatre which I missed out on. Maybe some day I'll get a HDTV and a Blu-Ray player a nice stereo and really have awesome movie parties! I'm so horribly materialistic, I know...)

Anyway, before I go to bed, I thought I would share a few more verses.

Ps 45:1-5 said:
Unto the end, for the sons of Core, for the hidden. Our God is our refuge and strength: a helper in troubles, which have found us exceedingly. Therefore we will not fear, when the earth shall be troubled; and the mountains shall be removed into the heart of the sea. Their waters roared and were troubled: the mountains were troubled with his strength. The stream of the river maketh the city of God joyful: the most High hath sanctified his own tabernacle.

Ps 86:1-5 said:
For the sons of Core, a psalm of a canticle. The foundations thereof are in the holy mountains: The Lord loveth the gates of Sion above all the tabernacles of Jacob. Glorious things are said of thee, O city of God. I will be mindful of Rahab and of Babylon knowing me. Behold the foreigners, and Tyre, and the people of the Ethiopians, these were there. Shall not Sion say: This man and that man is born in her? and the Highest himself hath founded her.

Ps 47 said:
A psalm of a canticle, for the sons of Core, on the second day of the week. Great is the Lord, and exceedingly to be praised in the city of our God, in his holy mountain. With the joy of the whole earth is mount Sion founded, on the sides of the north, the city of the great king. In her houses shall God be known, when he shall protect her. For behold the kings of the earth assembled themselves: they gathered together.

So they saw, and they wondered, they were troubled, they were moved: Trembling took hold of them. There were pains as of a woman in labour. With a vehement wind thou shalt break in pieces the ships of Tharsis. As we have heard, so have we seen, in the city of the Lord of hosts, in the city of our God: God hath founded it for ever. We have received thy mercy, O God, in the midst of thy temple.

According to thy name, O God, so also is thy praise unto the ends of the earth: thy right hand is full of justice. Let mount Sion rejoice, and the daughters of Juda be glad; because of thy judgments, O Lord. Surround Sion, and encompass her: tell ye in her towers. Set your hearts on her strength; and distribute her houses, that ye may relate it in another generation. For this is God, our God unto eternity, and for ever and ever: he shall rule us for evermore.

Cant 2:2 said:
As the lily among thorns, so is my love among the daughters

Cant 4:11- said:
Thy lips, my spouse, are as a dropping honeycomb, honey and milk are under thy tongue; and the smell of thy garments, as the smell of frankincense. My sister, my spouse, is a garden enclosed, a garden enclosed, a fountain sealed up. Thy plants are a paradise of pomegranates with the fruits of the orchard. Cypress with spikenard. Spikenard and saffron, sweet cane and cinnamon, with all the trees of Libanus, myrrh and aloes with all the chief perfumes. The fountain of gardens: the well of living waters, which run with a strong stream from Libanus. Arise, O north wind, and come, O south wind, blow through my garden, and let the aromatical spices thereof flow.

I could quote all night about the love of God for the Blessed Virgin Mary and the glories He has bestowed upon her for the benefit of the whole world. She who is Daughter of the Father, Mother of the Son and Spouse of the Holy Spirit. The ever-glorious and ever-blessed Queen.

MamaZ · Feb 20, 2010

Well, you could say that God deified Mary, yes. But you have to understand what "deification" means. You could say that Mary is a goddess, though that would be likely misinterpreted, as some have misinterpreted Jesus saying that "ye are gods". It is best to say simply that Mary is the creature most exalted in all of Creation, the closest to God. Martin Luther said that if he had as many tongues as there are blades of grass in the world, he could not say what it means to be the Mother of God. St. Louis de Montfort said that Mary acquired such merit that it would easier to count the stars in the sky, the drops of water in the ocean, that it would be to count the merits and graces given to the Blessed Virgin. I would not hesitate to say that it is a mystery to the angels and even to the Blessed Virgin herself, as God is infinitely greater than her and thus she herself cannot fully comprehend the infinite graces that He has given to her.

I don't see Mary exaulted by God at all. In fact Mary is mentioned very little by the writings of the Scripture. It is man who has done this not God.. Mary is but a mere human being and handmaiden of the Lord in Jewish time.. She was a virgin betrothed to Joseph. Who before the wedding took place was found to be with Child. Not by acts of men but by the HS.. This does not make Mary diety.. This makes Mary and handmaiden of the Lord.. It is man who has exaulted her.. Show me where Jesus ever exalted Mary in the presence of many witnesses..

MamaZ · Feb 20, 2010

Some of the scripture you have embraced to be of Mary is actually a love between a man and a woman..

Thekla · Feb 20, 2010

bbbbbbb said:
I do not know of any Christians who believe that Joseph and Mary had intercourse prior to the birth of Jesus Christ, After all, scripture plainly states that Joseph did not know (have intercourse) with her until after the birth of Jesus.

The issue, simply stated, is why it is such an essential dogma for Catholics and Orthodox that Mary and Joseph never, even once, had intercourse after Joseph knew Mary (an oxymoron if ever there was one)? If marital intimacy is perfectly acceptable behavior within the marital state, then why is it that Mary's sinlessness hinges so strongly upon her perpetual virginity?

Could you please provide scriptural evidence that Joseph and Mary were married ?

Anglian · Feb 20, 2010

Dear Thekla,

Good question.

I wonder when this habit of questioning the Blessed Theotokos' perpetual virginity began? It was unknown in the early Church, and men like Luther held to it firmly.

Elsewhere here, our brother Intercisus says it is a late American development.

Is it just me, or is it in extremely dubious taste to question the honour of Christ's mother?

peace,

Anglian

Thekla · Feb 20, 2010

Anglian said:
Dear Thekla,

Good question.

I wonder when this habit of questioning the Blessed Theotokos' perpetual virginity began? It was unknown in the early Church, and men like Luther held to it firmly.

Elsewhere here, our brother Intercisus says it is a late American development.

Is it just me, or is it in extremely dubious taste to question the honour of Christ's mother?

peace,

Anglian

Attacks on Mary's honor seems to be both relatively recent and also 'ancient'; in the early centuries it was done by those who wished to attack Christ and Christianity (see, for example, the pagan detractor, Celsus, and his attacks on Mary's honor). Though even these early detractors did not think that Mary and Joseph were married and had children.

MamaZ · Feb 20, 2010

Mat 1:18 And the birth of Jesus Christ was this way (for His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph) before the coming together of them, she was found having babe in womb by the Holy Spirit.
Mat 1:19 But her husband to be, Joseph, being just, and not willing to make her a public example, he purposed to put her away secretly.
Mat 1:20 And as he was thinking about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord was seen by him in a dream, saying, Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife. For that in her is generated by the Holy Spirit.
Mat 1:21 And she will bear a son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.
Mat 1:22 And all this happened so that might be fulfilled that which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23 "Behold! The virgin will conceive in her womb and will bear a son, and they will call His name Emmanuel" (which translated is, God with us). Isa. 7:14
Mat 1:24 And being aroused from sleep, Joseph did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took his wife,
Mat 1:25 and did not know her until she bore her son, the First-born. And he called His name Jesus.

laconicstudent · Feb 20, 2010

Anglian said:
Is it just me, or is it in extremely dubious taste to question the honour of Christ's mother?

I question why it seems so important to some people that Mary not be perpetually virginal.

Thekla · Feb 20, 2010

MamaZ said:
Mat 1:18 And the birth of Jesus Christ was this way (for His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph) before the coming together of them, she was found having babe in womb by the Holy Spirit.
Mat 1:19 But her husband to be, Joseph, being just, and not willing to make her a public example, he purposed to put her away secretly.
Mat 1:20 And as he was thinking about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord was seen by him in a dream, saying, Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife. For that in her is generated by the Holy Spirit.
Mat 1:21 And she will bear a son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.
Mat 1:22 And all this happened so that might be fulfilled that which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23 "Behold! The virgin will conceive in her womb and will bear a son, and they will call His name Emmanuel" (which translated is, God with us). Isa. 7:14
Mat 1:24 And being aroused from sleep, Joseph did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took his wife,
Mat 1:25 and did not know her until she bore her son, the First-born. And he called His name Jesus.

This is not evidence of marriage -- note that the word here translated as "wife" means woman - and is used in reference to any woman (betrothed, married, widowed, single).

The word translated as "until" does not in Greek require a reversal of condition. The passage itself is concerned with the purpose of establishing the fulfillment of prophecy in the virgin birth.
Note that the verb "know" (yinosko) is in the imperfect tense -- that means the action described by the tense is continuing, ongoing (never completed or come to an end, ie reversed; "not knowing" her continues).

Further note, that the Angel - in the instruction to Joseph to flee - refers to Mary as the mother of Christ (not the woman of Joseph).

Where is the scriptural evidence of marriage ?

katherine2001 · Feb 20, 2010

Considering that the Scriptures refer to the betrothal, why don't they refer to a wedding if the Theotokos and Joseph were indeed married?

Livindesert · Feb 20, 2010

Matthew 1:20
But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.

MamaZ · Feb 20, 2010

katherine2001 said:
Considering that the Scriptures refer to the betrothal, why don't they refer to a wedding if the Theotokos and Joseph were indeed married?

Just because the wedding was not mentioned we see that Joseph did as the Lord commanded and took Mary as His wife..

Thekla · Feb 20, 2010

Livindesert said:
Matthew 1:20
But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.

Check the Greek ... the same word means also betrothed, widow, etc. in usage. IE, the translator has chosen to narrow the meaning of guni (woman, lady, betrothed, wife, mistress, widow, servant) to one meaning. So, based on what scriptural, historical or linguistic evidence does the translator choose this meaning ?

Thekla · Feb 20, 2010

MamaZ said:
Just because the wedding was not mentioned we see that Joseph did as the Lord commanded and took Mary as His wife..

The word is guni -- I have listed the more accurate definition above. Without evidence, how does the translator claim a marriage

Thekla · Feb 20, 2010

Livindesert said:
Matthew 1:20
But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.

There is no such term as "home" in the Greek of this verse.

Consider, how can the translator use the term "wife" to translate guni in this verse when we have just been told that Mary and Joseph were betrothed (not that they were married) ?

The translator makes a curious leap -

Note that in Luke 2:5 " To be taxed with Mary, his espoused (betrothed) wife (guni/woman)" wife" clearly cannot mean married, as they are still betrothed. So again the translation is curious.

Livindesert · Feb 20, 2010

Mat 1:20 But 1161 while he 846 thought on 1760 these things 5023, behold 2400 , the angel 32 of the Lord 2962 appeared 5316 unto him 846 in 2596 a dream 3677, saying 3004 , Joseph 2501, thou son 5207 of David 1138, fear 5399 not 3361 to take 3880 unto thee 4675 Mary 3137 thy wife 1135: for 1063 that which is conceived 1080 in 1722 her 846 is 2076 of 1537 the Holy 40 Ghost 4151.

While Guni/wife can also mean a betrolthed woman. I find the greek of "to take" interesting
paralambanō
1) to take to, to take with one's self, to join to one's self

Seems more than an engagement.

Thekla · Feb 20, 2010

Livindesert said:
Mat 1:20 But 1161 while he 846 thought on 1760 these things 5023, behold 2400 , the angel 32 of the Lord 2962 appeared 5316 unto him 846 in 2596 a dream 3677, saying 3004 , Joseph 2501, thou son 5207 of David 1138, fear 5399 not 3361 to take 3880 unto thee 4675 Mary 3137 thy wife 1135: for 1063 that which is conceived 1080 in 1722 her 846 is 2076 of 1537 the Holy 40 Ghost 4151.

While Guni/wife can also mean a betrolthed woman. I find the greek of "to take" interesting
paralambanō
1) to take to, to take with one's self, to join to one's self

Seems more than an engagement.

The same term is used to describe Christ taking Peter, James, and John to the mount where He was transfigured. Compare this term throughout the NT ... means to take, go with, etc.

Considering, the NT consistently uses the term guni for the betrothed Mary, and no evidence is given for their marriage, it cannot be scripturally supported that they ever did marry.

EDIT:

I've just checked all the uses of 'paralambano' in the LXX OT; it is never used in the sense of 'take as a wife' - even in the Song of Solomon.

Again, Luke attests in his Gospel that Joseph and Mary were not married when they went to Bethlehem to be taxed -- and yet Joseph did take Mary with him.

Anglian · Feb 21, 2010

Dear Thekla,

Thank you once again.

All of this shows the danger of reading the Bible outside of the tradition of which it is a part. Nor is this a sectarian comment, for that tradition is available to us all.

If one reads any of the Fathers one will find similar comments about the nature of the relationship between the Blessed Theotokos and St. Joseph. The fact is that it nowhere states explicitly that they were married. One can, of course, as our friend Livindesert does, choose to read it that way, but once again we see that the idea there is a 'plain reading' of Scripture is misleading.

Does it matter whether they were betrothed or married? No. What matters is that she was the Mother of the Christ and St. Joseph protected mother and child. They are an example to us all.

peace,

Anglian

MamaZ · Feb 22, 2010

Even the towns people knew Mary and Joseph to be married with children. They were already betrothed..In fact Joseph was going to put her away secretly due to the fact she was with child.. This was before their coming together so Joseph knew the child was not his.. This is why God told Joseph to take Mary was His wife.. Which Joseph did and he did not know her until after the birth of Christ. It is all evident in the writings of the full context of the scriptures. For the focus is not on the virgin Mary but on Christ and His enterance into the world.. Not much more about the childhood of Jesus..

There's something about Mary.......

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