There must be more than this?

Faulty · May 2, 2014

onlybygrace84 said:
I got that, I'm asking for your wisdom in the issue for my own "toolkit" in the future. If you encounter someone who says they had a time of genuine closeness with the Lord and then fell away sharply. How do you get a person converted in such a state? They surely had prayed the sinner's prayer and/or repented once already. Do they get "saved" again, or simply recommit themselves to Christ?

Honestly, I think in many cases it's because they never actually heard the real gospel.

Many were told to let Jesus into your heart, and He'll make you a better you. You'll discover a champion in you, and God will fulfill your dreams and desires, you'll have better sex with your spouse, never run out of money, and rainbows will shine out your backside.

They've heard positive confession, faith in your faith, and market-driven messages, and they think that is what Christianity is. Then when God doesn't deliver on fulfilling the lies they learned, they no longer believe.

They need to know they aren't a champion, but a sinner in need of a savior, and that there is one and only one of those.

ByTheSpirit · May 2, 2014

I gotcha

turned around · May 2, 2014

Hi Katy,
You mentioned the Spirit being in you. He is the only one who can bear witness to your salvation. That being said, the reason I relate to your story is. I myself fizzled out, imploded at times, became frustrated. What I found out was I was trying way to hard. I was frustrating the grace of God. Romans 11:6, is a good verse to meditate. We sometimes have extremely high aspirations to be super saints. The Lord took me back to the basics. You know what I didn't know them. He is so gracious, he led me by the hand. To the letters of Paul, especially the book of romans. Ask your Father if that's the course for you.

Grace to you.

now faith · May 4, 2014

Faulty said:
There are several things that could be going on here. One of them is it could be a trial of your faith. Both James and Peter speak of this concept. God puts you through various hardships and trials for your benefit, for the purpose of testing your faith to be genuine or not. When one perseveres through these trials with their faith intact, they are told to rejoice because their faith is proven to be genuine, but if not, then we have the benefit of knowing our faith was never genuine, a false convert if you will. There are posts like this all over the forums for nonbelievers or struggles by christians of people claiming they were once christians, but lost their faith at some point, over this reason and that, when the truth is they failed the test and God revealed to them where they actually stand so they could truly be saved.

Another issue is that you appear to be seeking experiences over relationship. There is a lot on your post talking about things that you've done and are doing and you feel God isn't paying you back in the manner or frequency that you feel He should be doing, which really means you're attempting to dictate the terms of the interaction between the two of you, which is a sin of pride that he will readily forgive when confessed.

We don't have a quid pro quo relationship with God. It's not a relationship where we do our part, then God does His as if He's bound by obligation to behave as we want Him to. We seek Him and we wait because we have full confidence He will always do what is right, when it is right, even when the people we pray for end up dying. We are all given a time to die and no amount of prayer will keep us alive forever. At some point, we all end up as dust, leaving people we love behind to carry on.

Hello brother can you give me the passages in Peter and James that you mentioned?

OldDogDiver · May 4, 2014

Faulty said:
We don't have a quid pro quo relationship with God. It's not a relationship where we do our part, then God does His as if He's bound by obligation to behave as we want Him to.

I don't agree with this, especially the underlined & bolded part.

The Word is chockfull of God saying, "if you do this, I will do that." Many, if not most, of His promises are conditional. So we definitely DO have our part and He has his. It is a covenant contract, so He IS bound by obligation - very much a "quid pro quo."

Even our very salvation is a quid pro quo: if we repent, He will forgive. If we hearken and obey, all these blessings will come to us. If we love Him, we will keep His commands - etc. etc.

MichaelDiNunzio · May 4, 2014

KatyDanes said:
Dear brothers and sisters.
I dont know if this is at all a good place to post this..
There is so much nonsense on the internet, also on these Christian pages of every sort. So many people who speak, who have a lot of pride.
What I need is some people with a good lenght of life experience, visdom and above all humility.
Those who truly have nothing to say, who havent experienced what I have, please hold back..

I've been a personal believer for some 10 years now. Especially during the first few years I was so on fire, I told everyone about the beauty of the Gospel and the Love of Jesus. I even experienced a healing during prayer and had a lot of expectation.. I spend a lot of time in prayer and in church because I wanted it and loved it.
But over time, the zeal got less, I spend less time with the Lord.. I dont know what came first, the loss of zeal or the abandon of disciplined prayerlife. I got disillusioned because I sensed that my prayer was mostly a monologue and I fell into the habit of seeking comfort with human beings who end up hurting me, because I really needed a tangible love.

Fast forward 7 years and I am barely hanging on.. I pray more out of obligation than anything else.. I am one of those lethargic stone faced people that I couldn't imagine I'd turn into. One of the people who look half asleep in church. I mean, I can keep doing this, going through the motions.. I am there intellectually, but my heart is not burning at all.

I have read much in the Bible and read, seen and heard so many great testimonies about miracles and salvation in every area of life. For a very long time I prayed fervently for the baptism in the Holy Spirit.. but it didn't happen.. I mean I know I have the Spirit in me, otherwise I couldnt believe in Jesus. But visions, hearing Gods voice, spoeaking in tongues, being led to give words of wisdom or knowlege, being led in terms of where to go and whom to marry.. these things I read about and I found so cool... but it didnt happen at all to me. And I end up just feeling disapoointed and left out.

I think there just must be more than this. I begged God to touch me, but he seems to not do it.
I was also recently so disappointed because he didnt heal my dearest family member and a family friend.. we truly believed he would, we called upon his name and confessed his Word of power and authority very much.. But death, empty hard death and suffering was the only result we saw on this side of eternity, much to our shock and sorrow.

Anyone been in this situation?
I cannot live without Jesus.. but this mediocre, boring, never experiencing really truly seeing or hearing him, or his supernatural power, its just wearing me out.

And please, dont give an answer unless you really have something meaningful to say. I am so tired of the superficiality .. its so easy to write something..

Kate

Dear Katey,

Please take a look at my new images of Christ at Facebook under "MichaelFrancisJesusbilder". These paintings are designed to update and enliven your personal relation to Jesus in a new positive, challenging and inviting manner. Happy viewing!

Michael

Simon Peter · May 4, 2014

OldDogDiver said:
I don't agree with this, especially the underlined & bolded part.

The Word is chockfull of God saying, "if you do this, I will do that." Many, if not most, of His promises are conditional. So we definitely DO have our part and He has his. It is a covenant contract, so He IS bound by obligation - very much a "quid pro quo."

Even our very salvation is a quid pro quo: if we repent, He will forgive. If we hearken and obey, all these blessings will come to us. If we love Him, we will keep His commands - etc. etc.

Can you provide a source for your claim?

There's somewhere between 3,000 and 7,000 promises in the Bible, but a search for the phrase "if you" only brings 350 results and that includes every time the phrase is used by men, so the real total is far less.

peace,
Simon

Faulty · May 4, 2014

now faith said:
Hello brother can you give me the passages in Peter and James that you mentioned?

James 1:2-3, 12-15
1 Peter 1:6-7

Faulty · May 4, 2014

OldDogDiver said:
I don't agree with this, especially the underlined & bolded part.

The Word is chockfull of God saying, "if you do this, I will do that." Many, if not most, of His promises are conditional. So we definitely DO have our part and He has his. It is a covenant contract, so He IS bound by obligation - very much a "quid pro quo."

Even our very salvation is a quid pro quo: if we repent, He will forgive. If we hearken and obey, all these blessings will come to us. If we love Him, we will keep His commands - etc. etc.

Ok,, but I also disagree. Paul clearly tells us that it was by grace we were saved, not by our own doing, but is a gift from God. If you think you have that arrangement with God, a quid pro quo arrangement, I do indeed feel sorry for you because you are missing something. Even your repentance is not something you do, but something also granted by God as He sees fit (2 Tim 2:25).

now faith · May 5, 2014

Faulty said:
James 1:2-3, 12-15
1 Peter 1:6-7

James: 1. 2. My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; 3. Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. 12. Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. 13. Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:James: 1. 2. My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; 3. Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. 12. Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. 13. Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14. But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

1 Peter: 1. 6. Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 7. That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: -

now faith · May 5, 2014

Faulty:

I pasted the verses you used,and I do not see anywhere that God puts these trials on you.

In the 13th verse it contradicts God placing affliction on you.

God is not the author of sin in James it tells us when lust is conceived it brings sin and sin brings death.
Why would God afflict you?
The devil does a pretty good job at that.
When we fall into divers temptations we do so by our own flesh,not God's will.
We walk outside of his Will by doing so and walk in the fires trials of the world.
This we count as joy by repentance and having faith in the restoration of God.

It's only the Church and the devil who want to put you through the trial.

're quote faultys statement God puts you through various hardships and trials for your benefit, for the purpose of testing your faith to be genuine or not. When one perseveres through these trials with their faith intact, they are told to rejoice because their faith is proven to be genuine, but if not, then we have the benefit of knowing our faith was never genuine, a false convert if you will.

now faith · May 5, 2014

This is my opinion,but the misinterpretation of these verses in James has caused a world of pain in the body of Christ.
It puts God as a punisher to make you stronger.
This would be today the view of a abusive parent,causing misery on a child to make them stronger.

I have to say the Church world bases much of its theology on a Gospel of abuse,instead of teaching
Persecution comes for being in the body of Christ,and when we hold fast our faith in him we have overcome the world and the devil.
Lord knows we do not have to endure affliction from God,or what would the blood have covered?
No it's not God taking you to the woodshed it's your flesh and the devil

Faulty · May 6, 2014

now faith said:
Faulty:

I pasted the verses you used,and I do not see anywhere that God puts these trials on you.

In the 13th verse it contradicts God placing affliction on you.

God is not the author of sin in James it tells us when lust is conceived it brings sin and sin brings death.
Why would God afflict you?
The devil does a pretty good job at that.
When we fall into divers temptations we do so by our own flesh,not God's will.
We walk outside of his Will by doing so and walk in the fires trials of the world.
This we count as joy by repentance and having faith in the restoration of God.

It's only the Church and the devil who want to put you through the trial.

're quote faultys statement God puts you through various hardships and trials for your benefit, for the purpose of testing your faith to be genuine or not. When one perseveres through these trials with their faith intact, they are told to rejoice because their faith is proven to be genuine, but if not, then we have the benefit of knowing our faith was never genuine, a false convert if you will.

Keep in mind that the devil had to ask permission to put both Job and Peter through their trials. He had to get the green light to move as he did. You can say it's not God doing it, and in a way you'd be right, but He certainly permits them and then tells us to be expecting them.

A trial is not sin. SIN is sin.

OldDogDiver · May 6, 2014

Faulty said:
Ok,, but I also disagree. Paul clearly tells us that it was by grace we were saved, not by our own doing, but is a gift from God. If you think you have that arrangement with God, a quid pro quo arrangement, I do indeed feel sorry for you because you are missing something. Even your repentance is not something you do, but something also granted by God as He sees fit (2 Tim 2:25).

I don't agree.

We are not saved by grace alone. We are saved by grace through faith. God's grace/our faith - quid pro quo. Yes, it is a gift from God but we have the responsibility of exercising our faith to receive it.

Please don't feel sorry for me! I fully believe the full gospel and have a great relationship with the Lord. He has His part and I have mine.

OldDogDiver · May 6, 2014

Simon Peter said:
Can you provide a source for your claim?

There's somewhere between 3,000 and 7,000 promises in the Bible, but a search for the phrase "if you" only brings 350 results and that includes every time the phrase is used by men, so the real total is far less.

peace,
Simon

3,000 - 7,000 promises? Which is it? Where is your source!?

The OP is having issues with feeling doubt and having trouble seeing/hearing/feeling the Lord. The answer to those problems is to find the promises of God and do your part.

James 1:22 Be not only a hearer but a DO-er (that means we have a part)

Jeremiah 29:13 You will find the Lord IF you seek Him with all your heart (there's that pesky our part to do)

I know there are some promises that are not conditional, but when the Word says He will do ____ IF we do ____, I take that pretty seriously.

If the OP will seek out the promises of God and do what each promise says to do, the answers will come, the doubts will vanish.

Simon Peter · May 6, 2014

OldDogDiver said:
3,000 - 7,000 promises? Which is it? Where is your source!?

Debates throughout history expect that the person who first makes a claim is obligated to back that claim up.

Your claim was:

The Word is chockfull of God saying, "if you do this, I will do that." Many, if not most, of His promises are conditional. So we definitely DO have our part and He has his. It is a covenant contract, so He IS bound by obligation - very much a "quid pro quo."

My figures of 3,000 to 7,000 promises in the scriptures are merely part of my questioning your initial claim.

Sources seem to vary from 3000 to 7000 (depending on how they are counted) with 5000 coming up often.

Thanks,
Simon

Faulty · May 6, 2014

OldDogDiver said:
I don't agree.

We are not saved by grace alone. We are saved by grace through faith. God's grace/our faith - quid pro quo. Yes, it is a gift from God but we have the responsibility of exercising our faith to receive it.

Please don't feel sorry for me! I fully believe the full gospel and have a great relationship with the Lord. He has His part and I have mine.

I would love to see that verse that states we have to exercise our faith to receive salvation. Scripture states we can't come to Jesus unless the Father draws us (Jn 6:44) and that it is the Father that gives us to Him when He draws us (Jn 6:37).

Are you familiar with the semi-pelagianism heresy? It's a 5th century false teaching that God and man cooperate together to achieve man's salvation, that man reaches out to God first, then God responds, faith prior to grace as it were.

OldDogDiver · May 6, 2014

Faulty said:
I would love to see that verse that states we have to exercise our faith to receive salvation. Scripture states we can't come to Jesus unless the Father draws us (Jn 6:44) and that it is the Father that gives us to Him when He draws us (Jn 6:37).

Salvation is a free gift of God (Rom. 6:23). Jesus bore sin in his body (1 Pet. 2:24), and paid the penalty for breaking the Law of God, which is spiritual death (eternal separation from God, Isaiah 59:2). If you want salvation, you need to admit that you are a sinner and that you want Jesus to forgive you of your sins. You must acknowledge that there is nothing you can do to earn forgiveness and that Jesus is the only way for you to be saved (John 14:6). You must turn from your sins (Acts 3:19). Pray and ask Jesus to forgive you. You need to trust in him completely. Seek him; he will save you.

Lots of "to do's" in the act of salvation. Our part v. God's part.

Faulty said:
Are you familiar with the semi-pelagianism heresy? It's a 5th century false teaching that God and man cooperate together to achieve man's salvation, that man reaches out to God first, then God responds, faith prior to grace as it were.

Nope. Not familiar with it. Just believe the Word and act upon it. Pretty simple, really.

now faith · May 7, 2014

Faulty said:
Keep in mind that the devil had to ask permission to put both Job and Peter through their trials. He had to get the green light to move as he did. You can say it's not God doing it, and in a way you'd be right, but He certainly permits them and then tells us to be expecting them.

A trial is not sin. SIN is sin.

A trial can cause sin and God does not tempt us with sin,unless your a Calvinest.

Job is the pat answer in a discussion about God afflicting someone.
It is as if the possibility of lack of comprehensive knowledge of causative and formative verbs
Is not of considerations.
Job is thought to have been authored pre flood it is as simple as lack of understanding of
The translation of ancient Hebrew could distort our understanding.
Here is a clue to understanding Job:

Job: 41. 21. His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth. 22. In his neck remaineth strength, and sorrow is turned into joy before him. 23. The flakes of his flesh are joined together: they are firm in themselves; they cannot be moved. 24. His heart is as firm as a stone; yea, as hard as a piece of the nether millstone. 25. When he raiseth up himself, the mighty are afraid: by reason of breakings they purify themselves. 26. The sword of him that layeth at him cannot hold: the spear, the dart, nor the habergeon. 27. He esteemeth iron as straw, and brass as rotten wood. 28. The arrow cannot make him flee: slingstones are turned with him into stubble. 29. Darts are counted as stubble: he laugheth at the shaking of a spear. 30. Sharp stones are under him: he spreadeth sharp pointed things upon the mire. 31. He maketh the deep to boil like a pot: he maketh the sea like a pot of ointment. 32. He maketh a path to shine after him; one would think the deep to be hoary. 33. Upon earth there is not his like, who is made without fear. 34. He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride.
Verse 34 shows us this beast is a metaphor for Satan he rules over pride the pride of flesh.
It is the same answer I gave before,afflictions come when we walk out side of the will of God.
We interpret Job as being perfect,because God said there was none like him.
We are presumptuous in thinking Job was sinless close but yet subject to Adam's fall like all men.
It will always be mentioned in a debate of this manner,it is synonymous with Godwins law.

Simon Peter · May 7, 2014

now faith said:
A trial can cause sin and God does not tempt us with sin...

It is the same answer I gave before,afflictions come when we walk out side of the will of God.

This classic 'prosperity gospel' error.

It's simplistic and unbiblical to believe that God only wants to prosper you with health, wealth and happiness.

The twelve disciples were stoned, imprisoned and persecuted; eleven were killed in various gruesome ways. Was this because they were bad Christians who lacked faith?

peace,
Simon

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