There may be suffering, but without God, suffering would be torture

[Gottservant]

Hi there,

So I have been thinking about this for a long time and actually God has helped me realize something that you might find hard to accept, but which is fundamentally true. God has done everything He can, about suffering. How do I know this? Because without God, suffering would be torture.

With God I realize that suffering creates character, builds resolve, without God I have no choice but to accept that the suffering will continue forever, with no purpose at all.

This is a fact: God has done everything He can, about suffering.

(selah)

 

[Freodin]

Creating character and building resolve... fine and dandy.

But there are three major problems with this approach to absolve God from his responsibility:

1. It doesn't work very well. Very often - perhaps more often than not - suffering destroys character and builds despair.

2. If it creates character and builds resolve... to what end? To endure the very thing that is said to be the cause of that upbuilding: the suffering?

Do you think natural catastrophies are good things because they bring humans to build things to be able to suffer through natural catastrophies?

3. (my personal favorite) Yes, suffering can create character and build resolve. But that works equally well (or bad) without God, and it happening without God does not result in "torture" or "suffering continuing forever".

 

[Gottservant]

Creating character and building resolve... fine and dandy.

Precisely.

But there are three major problems with this approach to absolve God from his responsibility:

1. It doesn't work very well. Very often - perhaps more often than not - suffering destroys character and builds despair.

Then you are describing torture.

2. If it creates character and builds resolve... to what end? To endure the very thing that is said to be the cause of that upbuilding: the suffering?

For one thing.

Do you think natural catastrophies are good things because they bring humans to build things to be able to suffer through natural catastrophies?

Is enduring not good? And better than torture is bad?

3. (my personal favorite) Yes, suffering can create character and build resolve. But that works equally well (or bad) without God, and it happening without God does not result in "torture" or "suffering continuing forever".

Except that you yourself attempted to contradict suffering by making it torture...

Then you are describing torture.

...and you resulted in contradicting yourself, saying you therefore object to something you have described as something else - God would not have done that, nor allowed you to.

Now, it may be that you are suffering (because of your contradiction?) and it may be that you think you can cope without God, but can you prove to anyone (even yourself?) that God made no difference? I doubt it...

...even if all you did was treat God as an obstacle to escaping suffering, science has shown it would increase the probability that you could cope (I know of two experiments, one, in which students imagined they were doing a test for a foreign university and scored better, two, in which people exiting a building exited faster when there was a pillar in the way of the exit (a little way back))

I think you made a reasonable post, but I would really like you to focus on whether torture is better than suffering.

 

[Freodin]

Then you are describing torture.

So torture is suffering that isn't endured? Suffering that breaks you?

Well, then of course you are right: God has done everything he can about "suffering" - which is: nothing at all - but he hasn't done anything about torture.

For one thing.

To what end?

Is enduring not good? And better than torture is bad?

Again, to what end? Are you one of those people who like to bang their heads against the wall, because it is such a good feeling when the pain lessens?

"Enduring" is a means to an end: the capability of suffering without breaking. This is "good", but it is "good" only because there is suffering. It is not "good" per se. Without suffering, it would be meaningless.

Except that you yourself attempted to contradict suffering by making it torture...

...and you resulted in contradicting yourself, saying you therefore object to something you have described as something else - God would not have done that, nor allowed you to.

Now, it may be that you are suffering (because of your contradiction?) and it may be that you think you can cope without God, but can you prove to anyone (even yourself?) that God made no difference? I doubt it...

So you think I "suffer" right now, because of my "contradiction".

What do you think: do I suffer, or am I tortured?

 

[dumpsterdiver45]

God has done everything He can, about suffering. How do I know this? Because without God, suffering would be torture.

I don't follow you. How do you determine the difference between suffering that is suffering and suffering that is torture?

With God I realize that suffering creates character, builds resolve, without God I have no choice but to accept that the suffering will continue forever, with no purpose at all.

Are you implying eternal hell by the suffering that continues forever?

This is a fact: God has done everything He can, about suffering.

You should be careful; from a human perspective facts--because "fact" implies truth--about spiritual or moral matters are few and far apart. You're presenting propositions for consideration as reasonably warranted belief, not fact. Even lots of propositions about material reality are beliefs and not truly facts.

This being said, is your statement that God has done all He can based on the Arminian doctrine that unless freely chosen, salvation is lost? Or do you mean something else? Trying to understand.

 

[walkinginthelightnow]

A guy at my job wondered who slashed his tires. He was telling me that he may consult a psychic to find out. I persuaded him differently. Told him it was offensive to God and dealing with psychics can bring death in more ways than one. Told him to pray to God...his eyes got big. He really hadn't thought of such a thing. I then ministered to him about not seeking revenge.

I was thinking on the same lines as the OP, that without God and hope in God, the heathen will seek out all type of means to find resolution to their life's problems and woes.

 

[GrimKingGrim]

So I have been thinking about this for a long time and actually God has helped me realize something that you might find hard to accept, but which is fundamentally true. God has done everything He can, about suffering. How do I know this? Because without God, suffering would be torture.

Think about it a bit longer. A lot longer.

With God I realize that suffering creates character, builds resolve, without God I have no choice but to accept that the suffering will continue forever, with no purpose at all.

You seek to assign meaning to run away from reality? What's the point of that?

This is a fact: God has done everything He can, about suffering.

He can do a bit more I'm sure.

 

[Emmyc]

With God I realize that suffering creates character, builds resolve, without God I have no choice but to accept that the suffering will continue forever, with no purpose at all.

This is a fact: God has done everything He can, about suffering.

(selah)

This is partially why I do not believe Hell is endless conscious torment. God is all good, all loving, and created pain for a reason: to let you know when something is wrong.

Children born without the ability to feel pain always die young. They could have a broken leg and never know, since they walk on it anyway it gets worse and never heals right. It could puncture muscle tissue from the inside and get infected and they never realize.

If people are expirencing the God given gift of pain in hell it is to learn, grow, improve, and to fix what is wrong and eventually get out of that situation.

 

[dysert]

A guy at my job wondered who slashed his tires. He was telling me that he may consult a psychic to find out. I persuaded him differently. Told him it was offensive to God and dealing with psychics can bring death in more ways than one. Told him to pray to God...his eyes got big. He really hadn't thought of such a thing. I then ministered to him about not seeking revenge.

I was thinking on the same lines as the OP, that without God and hope in God, the heathen will seek out all type of means to find resolution to their life's problems and woes.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I think that it's generally human nature (Christian or otherwise) to "seek out all type of means to find resolution to their life's problems and woes". Take note of how many psychiatrists, psychologists, therapists, and counselors there are and how busy they all are. And take note of how many medications are available that are designed to limit human misery at all levels.