There is no trinity without the Gospel of John

can we not count the letters that John wrote or just the Gospel according to John?


Just look at this...should be all the "proof" of the trinity...with or without John.
What does the Bible teach about the Trinity?

Two things: Christianity and our belief in the Holy Trinity existed before our New Testament. Also, the Trinity was made manifest at Christ's baptism, which isn't presented in only the gospel of John.

TROPARION OF EPIPHANY: "When Thou, O Lord, wast baptized in the Jordan, the worship of the Trinity was made manifest! For the voice of the Father bare witness to Thee, and called Thee His beloved Son! And the Spirit, in the form of a dove, confirmed the truthfulness of His word. O Christ our God, who hast revealed Thyself and hast enlightened the world, glory to Thee!"

Before we delve into the biblical support, excluding the inspired writings of John, lets take a look at the Trinity.

Because the trinity is a paradox, no explanation will satisfy fully. But here goes a heart-felt effort:

Picture a glass sphere, solid glass, clear as a bell. Now picture that three round flat sections have been ground into the sphere making three equally spaced windows into the sphere.

Now picture the first window and look only at the surface, and you see a perfect circle. Lets call this circle the Father. Turn the sphere and look at the surface of the next window. Another perfect circle, but separate from the Father. Lets call this window the Word, or the Son or the pre-incarnate Jesus. Turn to the last window and again just look at the surface. Another perfect circle, the Holy Spirit.

Now the name of this sphere is Yahweh, God Almighty. The names of the windows are Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Look at the circle called the Son and look into the sphere and what do you see. You see through the window of God called the Son and see the windows called the Father and the Holy Spirit. Thus Christ is the perfect image of the Father, a visible manifestation of God the Father.

The Sphere has existed from before time, from all eternity. So Yahweh is eternal and so are all three windows.

Now Yahweh created the Universe and everything in it all alone. But, if I look through the window of the Son, what name might I call the creator? The Son, or if I look deeper I might say the Son and the Father worked together. And still it is true that one God created it all.

The trinity, one God in three persons, separate and equal in some respects can only be understood if we recognize that the persons that we see are God’s revelation to us. Sometimes we see a circle and sometimes we see two or all three. Sometimes the Bible reveals that the circle we have in view, the one we can see superficially communicates with another circle or both of the other circles. Whenever we have a circle in view, revealed in the physical universe, we are just seeing a revealed surface of God, a manifestation for our benefit. But the entity being partially revealed is the Sphere, the Eternal Spirit, Yahweh.

Jesus in the flesh was created within the womb of Mary, but incarnate within Jesus was the Son, eternal and creator of the Universe. He existed before the incarnation and humbled himself to become flesh, the Lamb of God. When we see passages that demonstrate that Jesus is the humble servant of the Father, what do we see? Do we see past the flesh and blood bodily form of Jesus. A man aware of the needs and desires of the flesh, a man tempted in everyway that we are tempted and yet did not sin. Can we see past the flesh and blood Jesus praying to his Father in heaven? Can we see past that revelation of the all too human Lamb of God, and see the incarnate Son? The one that shared glory with the Father before the foundation of the world was laid. And see that this does not conflict with the verse that says Yahweh does not share His glory with other gods.

The pure glass sphere represents that God is spirit – invisible yet powerful and active, able to reveal Himself by creating that which is visible from the starry sky to God in the flesh. The windows represent the manifestations of God’s revelation. One God in three persons, yet not three God’s nor one divine person. Behold, the trinity.

Did Matthew tell us to baptize folks in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit? Compare Matthew 3:16-17, 1 Corinthians 12:4-6, 2 Corinthians 13:14, Ephesians 2:18, 4:4-6, 5:18-20, 1 Peter 1:2 and Jude 20-21.

Each person of the Trinity has divine attributes. Compare James 1:17, Hebrews 13:8, and 9:14.

The next question we must ask is this: Is Jesus God incarnate. If the Father is God and the Son is God and the Helper (indwelt Holy Spirit) is God, then the Son is Yahweh, just as Hebrews 1:8-12 says.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but to reject the doctrine of the Trinity is to deny all the scriptures that say Jesus is God.

I have to admit I am not well versed on the "doctrine" of the trinity. My grandmother always said that Jesus and God are the exact same being, just viewed within the trinity in three difference perspectives. I don't agree with this view and perceive the trinity as three separate entities forming one logical Godhead through my "reading comprehension" of Scripture. Please correct me if I'm wrong here.

Never mind.

genryu1989 said:

I have been researching the bible alot lately and i've come across something very interesting, Matthew, Mark, and Luke are called the "synoptic" gospels. This is because John is so different from the other gospels, some say its a gnostic text.

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John doesn't look remotely like a gnostic text - it strongly asserts both the goodness of creation and the physical resurrection, both of which are fundamentally opposed to the gnostic perspective.

Isn't this a little strange? From what i've been reading, everything i've known about christianity may be wrong, so i want to put a sort of challenge out there to experienced christians. If in the beginning, the early christians didnt put john into the canon (which many opposed), how would you prove the trinity without john? (Cannot use john)

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Paul has a high Christology over and over. Time and time again Paul takes some of the strongest monotheistic phrases out of the Old Testament and uses them to talk about the Father and Jesus together. Philippians 2 alone ought to be sufficient, but there are many, many other instances. And, for what it's worth, I cannot believe that the similarities between the poem in Philippians 2 and both the footwashing story of John 13 and the prolog of John 1 are coincidental.

To look only at the gospels that do not include a structure that readily supports your understanding of the trinity (Or lack of) is a bit near sited isn't it? There are nearly 30 books in the NT, why limit or try and define God in such an absolute way, with less than 10% of what is available to us?

I'll put is another way.

If your "doctrine" will only work with less than 10% of the available scripture then why look at the rest of scripture as flawed? Maybe you should look at what you call doctrine, and make your adjustment there. rather than cutting out or disqualifying entire books of the bible just so your beliefs can be deemed correct.

Drich, my doctrine wont come from ten percent of the scripture (when did i say that? or even imply that?),

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I thought I made it very clear when I said that there is nearly 30 books in the New testament. So if you only take three books out of the 27 books found in the NT to determine the true nature of God then your only using about 10% for your doctrine.

it will come from all of it,

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Apparently not, otherwise why didn't you directly address the other mentioning/scripture of the Holy Spirit that others left for you?

your judging me (something Jesus taught not to do...),

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You came to the Exploring Christianity section of the web site. This is where people such as yourself come to ask questions, and hold suspicious doctrine up to the light of what scripture says. For the purpose of gathering feed back or to defend a belief.

Since the other brothers had already covered several other sources as to where to find references or mentionings of the Holy Spirit in scripture, I set out to help you rectify or diagnose a faulty thought, or faulty information gathering process that you are using to determine the true nature of God. (In that you are only looking at about 10% of scripture to make your claim.)

Also, Jesus didn't tell us to never judge each other. He told us not to judge anyone in a way we do not wished to be judged.

Mt 7:
1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

I would like to think if I ask a question looking to proof a radical concept, that I would want feed back of all kinds.. Especially if I posted it in a place like this.

i understand the trinity, but i dont take every little thing i was raised to believe or taught to believe by a church (or the majority of christians), i actually ask questions.

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Nor should you, in 1 thess 5:21 we are told to "Question all things and to hold fast to what is Good."
But, in the spirit of 1 thess we must look at the whole of scripture before we can decide what is "good." (Not just the potions that underline what we already believe.)

Has anyone looked at the link that i gave? Is it true that Jesus's ministry was only one year in the synoptics, but three in john? thats 1095 days compared to 365 days.

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How could you or the author of that link possibly know that for certain? During my last read of the Gospels I did not see any dates.

On a side note, when i was younger, i actually put all the synoptic gospels together, ordering them by when events happened, but i could not find a way to include john.

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So, you feel that when you were younger and less experienced, you were accurately able to access the true nature of God, or at the very least you were able to disqualify entire works of the Holy Spirit (God) as not being authentic..

I have looked at all the verses given so far, and none of them support the trinity.

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How so?
Please explain in better detail.

genryu1989 said:

Drich, my doctrine wont come from ten percent of the scripture (when did i say that? or even imply that?), it will come from all of it, your judging me (something jesus taught not to do...), i understand the trinity, but i dont take every little thing i was raised to believe or taught to believe by a church (or the majority of christians), i actually ask questions.

Has anyone looked at the link that i gave? Is it true that jesus's ministry was only one year in the synoptics, but three in john? thats 1095 days compared to 365 days.

I have looked at all the verses given so far, and none of them support the trinity. And i ask that you please give the verse in its entirety (not just mark 1:1-7)

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You are nog going to find an outright statement equivalent to "God is three persons,...". That kind of language will take another century or two to work out. What you will find is things like Paul especially borrowing language about YHWH and applying it to Jesus. But to spot that you have to be thoroughly versed in the OT language so that you see when Paul takes a phrase from Deuteronomy or Isaiah or whever and reworks it. Take, as a single example among many, the last phrase of the Christalogical poem in Philippians 2: "so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord..."

That pulls text straight out of Isaiah 45 - a fiercly monotheistic passage - "For I am God, and I have no peer. I solemnly make this oath - what I say is true and reliable. 'Surely every knee will bow to me, every tongue will solemnly affirm...".

Over and over Paul talks about Jesus in terms the OT uses for YHWH, and talks about God the Father in the same breath.

On a side note, when i was younger, i actually put all the synoptic gospels together, ordering them by when events happened, but i could not find a way to include john.

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If you try to treat them as primarily chronological accounts you will have a problem, because they are theological reflections on the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. They take Jesus' ministry, but the shape the story to bring out the different meanings behind it - as do all great story-tellers. The evangelists are theologians just as much as they are historians.

Hi Genryu1989, you said you have looked at all the verses and none of them support the trinity. I have also looked at the ones I provided and they all support the Trinity. Unless you support your contention with some specifics, one is forced to conclude it is pointless to try and communicate. Personal incredulity is the refuge of denial.

May God Bless

genryu1989 said:

I have been researching the bible alot lately and i've come across something very interesting, Matthew, Mark, and Luke are called the "synoptic" gospels. This is because John is so different from the other gospels, some say its a gnostic text. Isn't this a little strange? From what i've been reading, everything i've known about christianity may be wrong, so i want to put a sort of challenge out there to experienced christians. If in the beginning, the early christians didnt put john into the canon (which many opposed), how would you prove the trinity without john? (Cannot use john)

Here are some of the remarkable differences between the synoptic gospels and john Differences among gospels: comparing John with the remaining three gospels an unbiased site

I seriously am not trying to bash the trinity (please dont kick me), i just want to know if theres still a trinity without john

Please only use biblical references (except john)

Im doing this so i can make a list of all the verses that show the trinity, so i can make my own conclusion, but i will need the help of experienced christians or else it would take me forever.

On a side note, i think this koan really applies to this discussion. Instead of zen, think christianity

Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era (1868-1912), received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.
Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor's cup full, and then kept on pouring.
The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. "It is overfull. No more will go in!"
"Like this cup," Nan-in said, "you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?"

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Gnostics generally didn't believe God came in the flesh. John 6 clearly demonstrates the difference. Hence, John is not a gnostic text in any sense of the word.

As to trinity, there's 1 Peter 1:2-

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

genryu1989 said:

I have been researching the bible alot lately and i've come across something very interesting, Matthew, Mark, and Luke are called the "synoptic" gospels. This is because John is so different from the other gospels, some say its a gnostic text. Isn't this a little strange? From what i've been reading, everything i've known about christianity may be wrong, so i want to put a sort of challenge out there to experienced christians. If in the beginning, the early christians didnt put john into the canon (which many opposed), how would you prove the trinity without john? (Cannot use john)

Here are some of the remarkable differences between the synoptic gospels and john Differences among gospels: comparing John with the remaining three gospels an unbiased site

I seriously am not trying to bash the trinity (please dont kick me), i just want to know if theres still a trinity without john

Please only use biblical references (except john)

Im doing this so i can make a list of all the verses that show the trinity, so i can make my own conclusion, but i will need the help of experienced christians or else it would take me forever.

On a side note, i think this koan really applies to this discussion. Instead of zen, think christianity

Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era (1868-1912), received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.
Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor's cup full, and then kept on pouring.
The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. "It is overfull. No more will go in!"
"Like this cup," Nan-in said, "you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?"

Click to expand...

John never speaks of a trinity.
He only speaks of the Father and the Son/Word.
It takes three to make a trinity.

Time and time again Paul takes statements about YHWH from the Old Testament - key statements about the uniqueness of YHWH often - and applies them to Jesus.

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness. They will rule the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, the animals, all the earth, and the creatures that crawl on the earth."
Genesis 1:27So God created man in His own image; He created him in the image of God; He created them male and female.

This should be sufficient, along with the rest of Scripture. If not this may just be one of those questions left for the personal consultation with our LORD.