LovedofHim
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Yes, that makes a lot of sense.
But heaven is big, encompasses the earth, in my speculation.
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Well in essence God established a veil separating heaven and earth. A veil that we can't see... So... You're sort of right. When Christ returns and the dead are resurrected, the restored, renewed heaven and earth will be married together as the New Creation, the veil will be pulled back.
Ermm don't you think this statement comes off as a bit prideful to the rest of the Body as we are here to discuss and learn of the scriptures. Well unless perhaps the Lord visited one night and revealed all the interpretation of the whole book of Revelation to one personThere is NO rapture!!! No pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib! Nothing! The Bible does not teach a rapture of any kind!
gracechick said:Ermm don't you think this statement comes off as a bit prideful to the rest of the Body as we are here to discuss and learn of the scriptures. Well unless perhaps the Lord visited one night and revealed all the interpretation of the whole book of Revelation to one personLooks like is this could be another one of those threads.
Andrew Ryan said:I totally agree with this thread. Rapture = heresy.
But I do want to make bank selling rapture helmets (patent pending):
Originally Posted by dcyates
Looks like is this could be another one of those threads.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++There is NO rapture!!! No pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib! Nothing! The Bible does not teach a rapture of any kind!
rapture actually means to seize....and it is not a pre trib or mid trib event...it is a post trib event++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I will agree that the word rapture in not in the Bible.
However the meaning of rapture is taught and by Jesus Himself.
To deny God's word and its meaning is to deny God Himself.
Because you have kept my word of patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth. (Rev 3:10 NRS)
This describes the actions of God to protect true believers. It is the description of what rapture means.
Repent and seek a true beleive and the truth He will give you.
I disagree with the thread title, there is most certainly Rapture and it is my city:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I will agree that the word rapture in not in the Bible.
However the meaning of rapture is taught and by Jesus Himself.
To deny God's word and its meaning is to deny God Himself.
Because you have kept my word of patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth. (Rev 3:10 NRS)
This describes the actions of God to protect true believers. It is the description of what rapture means.
Repent and seek a true beleive and the truth He will give you.
The rapture is basically an oxymoron.
Wake the dead so they can miss what they would have missed.
This is an excellent example of how not to debate. Asserting that one's interpretation is beyond reproach by appealing to guilt through inference that to disagree is to "deny God Himself" scores no one any points.
I don't deny Scripture, and I certainly don't deny God. What I deny is a theological system that has its genesis in a 19th century sectarian movement. I reject Dispensationalism for the same reason I reject Adventism and Restorationism. They are theological systems born out of a religious environment ripe with sectarianism with a distrust of historic Christianity and the idea that we can just re-make Christianity in the image of our private interpretations of what Christianity should look like.
I don't regard Dispensationalists to be enemies of God, just wrong. Wrong because the theology has no basis in Scripture or any of the historic teachings of the Christian faith. It is a an entire theology and grand hermeneutic that completely re-structures and re-invents the biblical narrative without consideration to what the Church has always taught and in order to arrive to the conclusions Dispensationalists and Neo-Dispensationalists do requires extraordinary acts of interpretive gymnastics to make biblical texts say what they want them to say to make the entire system come out right. It's an impoverished way to do theology, it's terrible scholarship, and it is first rate butchery of the biblical texts. It is a prime example that by great acts of prooftexting and redefining biblical concepts outside of their historic and literary contexts Scripture can be made to say anything.
I don't deny God, I just reject a bad theology based upon even worse hermeneutics.
Two things, one obvious one perhaps not so obvious.
First of all, it should be rather clear to us that the Christians in Philadelphia are long dead and gone. That's who Jesus through John's text is speaking to. Why should I read this as anything other than Christ's promise to the community of Christians alive in Philadelphia two thousand years ago? By what rationale does this become a universal to "true believers" everywhere? What what form of logic does one do this? There is none. The plain context is there, this portion of the text was addressed to the Christian community in Philadelphia, and any universal meaning must arise from the particular meaning.
Second of all, the passage says absolutely nothing about God rapturing or taking or seizing or removing the Christians of Philadelphia from trial or tribulation. It says He will keep them, κἀγώ σε τηρήσω, "I also will guard you..." , τηρέω connotes be watched, Christ watching over, protecting, guarding, keeping His eye on them in order to keep them safe.
No rapture, no taking them out of the world, but rather preserving, keeping, watching over them. That's what it's saying. Because of the faithfulness of the Church in Philadelphia, Christ will protect them from the hour of testing.
No need to repent, there's nothing wrong about rejecting poor theology.
-CryptoLutheran
Revelation 5:9-10 (New King James Version)
9 And they sang a new song, saying:
You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us[a] kings and priests to our God;
And we[c] shall reign on the earth.
i'm a post tribber....am i a dispensationalist?This is an excellent example of how not to debate. Asserting that one's interpretation is beyond reproach by appealing to guilt through inference that to disagree is to "deny God Himself" scores no one any points.
I don't deny Scripture, and I certainly don't deny God. What I deny is a theological system that has its genesis in a 19th century sectarian movement. I reject Dispensationalism for the same reason I reject Adventism and Restorationism. They are theological systems born out of a religious environment ripe with sectarianism with a distrust of historic Christianity and the idea that we can just re-make Christianity in the image of our private interpretations of what Christianity should look like.
I don't regard Dispensationalists to be enemies of God, just wrong. Wrong because the theology has no basis in Scripture or any of the historic teachings of the Christian faith. It is a an entire theology and grand hermeneutic that completely re-structures and re-invents the biblical narrative without consideration to what the Church has always taught and in order to arrive to the conclusions Dispensationalists and Neo-Dispensationalists do requires extraordinary acts of interpretive gymnastics to make biblical texts say what they want them to say to make the entire system come out right. It's an impoverished way to do theology, it's terrible scholarship, and it is first rate butchery of the biblical texts. It is a prime example that by great acts of prooftexting and redefining biblical concepts outside of their historic and literary contexts Scripture can be made to say anything.
I don't deny God, I just reject a bad theology based upon even worse hermeneutics.
Two things, one obvious one perhaps not so obvious.
First of all, it should be rather clear to us that the Christians in Philadelphia are long dead and gone. That's who Jesus through John's text is speaking to. Why should I read this as anything other than Christ's promise to the community of Christians alive in Philadelphia two thousand years ago? By what rationale does this become a universal to "true believers" everywhere? What what form of logic does one do this? There is none. The plain context is there, this portion of the text was addressed to the Christian community in Philadelphia, and any universal meaning must arise from the particular meaning.
Second of all, the passage says absolutely nothing about God rapturing or taking or seizing or removing the Christians of Philadelphia from trial or tribulation. It says He will keep them, κἀγώ σε τηρήσω, "I also will guard you..." , τηρέω connotes be watched, Christ watching over, protecting, guarding, keeping His eye on them in order to keep them safe.
No rapture, no taking them out of the world, but rather preserving, keeping, watching over them. That's what it's saying. Because of the faithfulness of the Church in Philadelphia, Christ will protect them from the hour of testing.
No need to repent, there's nothing wrong about rejecting poor theology.
-CryptoLutheran
To all my no rapture brethren,
The problem I see with most rapturists and non rapturists alike is that they speak of rapture (Latin) or harpazo (Grk) as if it is an event or as if it is a noun. But it is not an event nor should it be designated as THE (definite article) ..rapture.
The term is a verb or an action phrase as the following texts should confirm .ie caught up or caught away etc ..
It is used a multitude of times and translated with different words, but the common theme is a forced snatching
Read for yourself and dont shoot the messenger
NT:726
harpazo (har-pad'-zo); from a derivative of NT:138; to sieze (in various applications):
KJV - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
NT:726
harpazo (har-pad'-zo); from a derivative of NT:138; to sieze (in various applications):
KJV - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
Matt 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force .KJV
MAT 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
KJV
John 6:15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force , to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.
KJV
John 10:12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
KJV
John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
KJV
John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
KJV
Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
KJV
Acts 23:10 And when there arose a great dissension, the chief captain, fearing lest Paul should have been pulled in pieces of them, commanded the soldiers to go down, and to take him by force from among them, and to bring him into the castle.
KJV
2 Cor 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knowethsuch an one caught up to the third heaven.
KJV
2 Cor 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
KJV
1 Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV
Jude 23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
KJV
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
KJV
So what are we to make out of all this per 1 TH 4? That this catching up is only a vehicle to bring the saints from all over the globe, to a central spot in the air as Christ is descending to the Mt of Olives in Israel per Zec 14. How else to you suppose we will all be gathered or get to Israel? A 747? Nada.
Note also, that we all will be in different time zones and some on a different day via the International date line. For some it will be at midnight, some at dawn etc etc. So no man willl know the hour or the day. But it will be in one 24 hour period, called the DOL which is the one time SC at the end of the age, on the last day of this age and at the last trump ..immediately AFTER the trib of those days.
AMEN!
Frankie
To all my no rapture brethren,
The problem I see with most rapturists and non rapturists alike is that they speak of rapture (Latin) or harpazo (Grk) as if it is an event or as if it is a noun. But it is not an event nor should it be designated as THE (definite article) ..rapture.
The term is a verb or an action phrase as the following texts should confirm .ie caught up or caught away etc ..
It is used a multitude of times and translated with different words, but the common theme is a forced snatching
Read for yourself and dont shoot the messenger
Frankie
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