There is no hell.

GuardianShua · Dec 22, 2008

Katholish said:
MichaelTheeArchAngel,

Your entire notion is built upon the premise that the human soul is not by nature immortal. This is the point of departure between your position and everyone else's (those who hold to a traditional Christian understanding).

It is not possible for the soul to be a mortal thing. Immaterial things cannot perish, only material things can die. The soul is immaterial, hence it is immortal.

Are you dusputing that the soul is immaterial?

A body with a spirit makes a living soul. A soul consist of both body and spirit. If we were immortal, then there would be no need for a resurrection. If Yahwah did not call us back into being, then we would never live again. The condemned are called back into being in the final Judgment. For the condemned it will be a dreadful day Knowing that their condemnation is about to bring death. There will be exceedingly great mental anguish, for which scripture says there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. The woman will scream like sirens and the men will be panic stricken. The messengers who witness this event will be greatly distressed from the sight of it all. The condemned will die and never rise again, because their punishment is for all eternity. There is no life in hell, because there is no hell, and there is no life for the condemned, because they are dead.

Der Alte · Dec 22, 2008

MichaelTheeArchAngel said:
[SIZE=-1]A body with a spirit makes a living soul. A soul consist of both body and spirit. If we were immortal, then there would be no need for a resurrection. If Yahwah did not call us back into being, then we would never live again. The condemned are called back into being in the final Judgment. For the condemned it will be a dreadful day Knowing that their condemnation is about to bring death. There will be exceedingly great mental anguish, for which scripture says there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. The woman will scream like sirens and the men will be panic stricken. The messengers who witness this event will be greatly distressed from the sight of it all. The condemned will die and never rise again, because their punishment is for all eternity. There is no life in hell, because there is no hell, and there is no life for the condemned, because they are dead.[/SIZE]

Isa 14:9 Hell [sheol] from beneath is moved for thee [king of babylon, vs. 4] to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

Looks to me like the dead in sheol, move, meet, stir, raise up, speak, and say.

GuardianShua · Dec 22, 2008

Der Alter said:
Isa 14:9 Hell [sheol] from beneath is moved for thee [king of babylon, vs. 4] to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
Looks to me like the dead in sheol, move, meet, stir, raise up, speak, and say.

Isa 14:9 >GRAVE< [SHEOL] from beneath is moved for thee [king of babylon, vs. 4] to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11 Thy pomp is brought down to the >grave< (SHEOL), and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

It looks to me like the dead in sheol, move, meet, stir, raise up by insects. You need to pay attention to the fact that you are reading a parable. And do not forget that translators can make a mistake in their translations. And if they have a particular belief such as HELL, then you can be sure that they will add that to scripture.

JacktheCatholic · Dec 22, 2008

Isaiah 33:11, 14

11 You shall conceive heat, you shall bring forth stubble: your breath as fire shall devour you.
12 And the people shall be as ashes after a fire, as a bundle of thorns they shall be burnt with fire.
13 Hear, you that are far off, what I have done, and you that are near know my strength.
14 The sinners in Sion are afraid, trembling hath seized upon the hypocrites. Which of you can dwell with devouring fire? which of you shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

Everlasting (as in forever) burnings (as to be suffering).

JacktheCatholic · Dec 22, 2008

Matthew 25:41, 46

41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty and you gave me not to drink. 43 I was a stranger and you took me not in: naked and you covered me not: sick and in prison and you did not visit me. 44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen: I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me. 46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

Again, everlasting punishment.

Mikecpking · Dec 22, 2008

Katholish said:
MichaelTheeArchAngel,

Your entire notion is built upon the premise that the human soul is not by nature immortal. This is the point of departure between your position and everyone else's (those who hold to a traditional Christian understanding).

It is not possible for the soul to be a mortal thing. Immaterial things cannot perish, only material things can die. The soul is immaterial, hence it is immortal.

Are you dusputing that the soul is immaterial?

Hi,
It is very true that the bible says the soul is NOT immortal.

Here are the referneces:

Numbers 23:10 Let my soul (nephesh) die the death of the righteous.
Judges 16:30 Let me (Nephesh, soul) die woith the Philistines..
Ezekiel 18:4 The soul that sins is the one that will die.

There is no notion in scripture that the soul is the immaterial 'part' of a man. This is a common error, but that view of 'soul' does not have its origins in Hebrew thinking, butr Greek and Babylonian philosophy. The way to understand 'nephesh' is to look at these verses for a correct definition.

Genesis 2:7 God breathed in the breath of life into the moulded and dust and he became a living soul (being) Nephesh).

He did not get a soul, he became a soul.

DT 12:23
23 But be sure you do not eat the blood, because the blood is the life (Nephesh), and you must not eat the life (Nepesh) with the meat.

This verse literally states the blood is the soul.

That means soul in the bible has a completely different definition. The basic meaning is soul means life, or vitality or the whole living person or animal.

Therefore, your remark is specualative from a Greek philisophical position rather than from a Hebrew perspective.

JacktheCatholic · Dec 22, 2008

Luke 3:16-17

16 John answered, saying unto all: I indeed baptize you with water: but there shall come one mightier than I, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to loose. He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire; 17 Whose fan is in his hand: and he will purge his floor and will gather the wheat into his barn: but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire. 18 And many other things exhorting did he preach to the people.

More is said about the chaff and who they will be.

JacktheCatholic · Dec 22, 2008

When a soul is sent to Hell it is DEAD. To be DEAD means to be without GOD whi is LIFE. FYI

JacktheCatholic · Dec 22, 2008

2 Thess 1:6-9

6 Seeing it is a just thing with God to repay tribulation to them that trouble you: 7 And to you who are troubled, rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with the angels of his power: 8 In a flame of fire, giving vengeance to them who know not God and who obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 Who shall suffer eternal punishment in destruction, from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his power

"From the face of our Lord Jesus Christ". To not be able to see Jesus and to be away from Him. To be seperated from God and thus LIFE.

The Devil is already DEAD because he has Fallen. So are those that die of this body and are sent to Hell.

Mikecpking · Dec 22, 2008

Der Alter said:
Isa 14:9 Hell [sheol] from beneath is moved for thee [king of babylon, vs. 4] to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

Looks to me like the dead in sheol, move, meet, stir, raise up, speak, and say.

Hi,
Just to put this into context and so I must stop you trying to get the bible to contradict with itself, how would you explain Genesis 4:10?

10 The LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground.

Does blood cry from the ground? No!

So what are the weak in Sheol doing?

Psalm 146:4 4His spirit goeth forth, he returneth to his earth, In that day have his thoughts perished

Psalm 88:10-12 10To the dead dost Thou do wonders? Do Rephaim rise? do they thank Thee? Selah.

11Is Thy kindness recounted in the grave? Thy faithfulness in destruction? 12Are Thy wonders known in the darkness? And Thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?

Psalm 6:5 No one remembers you when he is dead.
Who praises you from the grave [b] ?

Psa. 115:17 "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence."

Ecclesiates 9:5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even the memory of them is forgotten.

So the Isiah quote is figuartive, just like Genesis 4:10. 'The weak' in the Isiah passage is translated from the Hebrew word 'rephaim' which is what a person becomes in the grave.

JacktheCatholic · Dec 22, 2008

Genesis uses a form of writing that is like poetry. It is also written by men that lacked a better understanding fo the world and the universe and so we must keep that in mind.

GuardianShua · Dec 22, 2008

JacktheCatholic said:
Isaiah 33:11, 14
Everlasting (as in forever) burnings (as to be suffering).

Isaiah 33 (New International Version)

Isaiah 33

1 Woe to you, O destroyer,
you who have not been destroyed!
Woe to you, O traitor,
you who have not been betrayed!
When you stop destroying,
you will be destroyed;
when you stop betraying,
you will be betrayed.

2 O LORD, be gracious to us;
we long for you.
Be our strength every morning,
our salvation in time of distress.

3 At the thunder of your voice, the peoples flee;
when you rise up, the nations scatter.

4 Your plunder, O nations, is harvested as by young locusts;
like a swarm of locusts men pounce on it.

5 The LORD is exalted, for he dwells on high;
he will fill Zion with justice and righteousness.

6 He will be the sure foundation for your times,
a rich store of salvation and wisdom and knowledge;
the fear of the LORD is the key to this treasure. [a]

7 Look, their brave men cry aloud in the streets;
the envoys of peace weep bitterly.

8 The highways are deserted,
no travelers are on the roads.
The treaty is broken,
its witnesses are despised,
no one is respected.

9 The land mourns [c] and wastes away,
Lebanon is ashamed and withers;
Sharon is like the Arabah,
and Bashan and Carmel drop their leaves.

10 "Now will I arise," says the LORD.
"Now will I be exalted;
now will I be lifted up.

11 You conceive chaff,
you give birth to straw;
your breath is a fire that consumes you.

12 The peoples will be burned as if to lime;
like cut thornbushes they will be set ablaze."

13 You who are far away, hear what I have done;
you who are near, acknowledge my power!

14 The sinners in Zion are terrified;
trembling grips the godless:
"Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire?
Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?"

Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?" You are reading a parable. Words like: Fire, coal, flame and burning are often used to mean Judgment. And even if it should be literal, it has nothing to do with the final Judgment.

Mikecpking · Dec 22, 2008

JacktheCatholic said:
When a soul is sent to Hell it is DEAD. To be DEAD means to be without GOD whi is LIFE. FYI

All people end up in the grave (Sheol) Have a look at Daniel 12:2.

Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

What this verse implies is that resurrection, not immortality of the soul is and should be our core belief.

Judgement (as in Revelation) will be a single event and then will punishment takes place either thrown in to the lake fire or live in the New Jerusalem. I don't see any place in the bible that remotely suggests an disembodied soul has an eternal existence outside a living body either in Heaven or hell (More correctly, grave).

JacktheCatholic · Dec 22, 2008

MichaelTheeArchAngel said:
Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?" You are reading a parable. Words like: Fire, coal, flame and burning are often used to mean Judgment. And even if it should be literal, it has nothing to do with the final Judgment.

Everlasting burning.

The word we want to pay special attention to is "eternal". We know that we are never joining to disappear like a spark of used electricity. Instead we will continue for eternity after our earthly bodies die (or judgment day).

So there is a Heaven and a Hell and one is away from God and full of suffering while the other is with God and without suffering.

But let me quote something I read that pertains to this and adds to scripture references:

The doctrine of hell is so frightening that numerous heretical sects end up denying the reality of an eternal hell. The Unitarian-Universalists, the Seventh-Day Adventists, the Jehovahs Witnesses, the Christadelphians, the Christian Scientists, the Religious Scientists, the New Agers, and the Mormonsall have rejected or modified the doctrine of hell so radically that it is no longer a serious threat. In recent decades, this decay has even invaded mainstream Evangelicalism, and a number of major Evangelical figures have advocated the view that there is no eternal hellthe wicked will simply be annihilated.

But the eternal nature of hell is stressed in the New Testament. For example, in Mark 9:4748 Jesus warns us, "t is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched." And in Revelation 14:11, we read: "And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."

Hell is not just a theoretical possibility. Jesus warns us that real people go there. He says, "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few" (Matt. 7:1314).

http://www.catholic.com/library/Hell_There_Is.asp

JacktheCatholic · Dec 22, 2008

Mikecpking said:
All people end up in the grave (Sheol) Have a look at Daniel 12:2.

Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

What this verse implies is that resurrection, not immortality of the soul is and should be our core belief.

Judgement (as in Revelation) will be a single event and then will punishment takes place either thrown in to the lake fire or live in the New Jerusalem. I don't see any place in the bible that remotely suggests an disembodied soul has an eternal existence outside a living body either in Heaven or hell (More correctly, grave).

We know we will receive our glorified body in Heaven but it says nothing about receiving our body back in Hell. For all any of us know, those that go to Hell suffer without a body and are like wisps of smoke.

GuardianShua · Dec 22, 2008

JacktheCatholic said:
2 Thess 1:6-9

"From the face of our Lord Jesus Christ". To not be able to see Jesus and to be away from Him. To be seperated from God and thus LIFE.

The Devil is already DEAD because he has Fallen. So are those that die of this body and are sent to Hell.

2 Thess 1:6-9

6 Seeing it is a just thing with God to repay tribulation to them that trouble you: 7 And to you who are troubled, rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with the angels of his power: 8 In a flame of fire, giving vengeance to them who know not God and who obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 Who shall suffer eternal punishment in destruction, from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his power

This is speaking of Christ second coming, not the final Judgment.

JacktheCatholic · Dec 22, 2008

MichaelTheeArchAngel said:
2 Thess 1:6-9

6 Seeing it is a just thing with God to repay tribulation to them that trouble you: 7 And to you who are troubled, rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with the angels of his power: 8 In a flame of fire, giving vengeance to them who know not God and who obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 Who shall suffer eternal punishment in destruction, from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his power

This is speaking of Christ second coming, not the final Judgment.

What bible version are you quoting from?

JacktheCatholic · Dec 22, 2008

2 Thessalonians 1

1 Paul and Sylvanus and Timothy, to the church of the Thessalonians. In God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, 2 Grace unto you: and peace from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 We are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith groweth exceedingly and the charity of every one of you towards each other aboundeth. 4 So that we ourselves also glory in you in the churches of God, for your patience and faith, and in all your persecutions and tribulations: which you endure 5 For an example of the just judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which also you suffer. 6 Seeing it is a just thing with God to repay tribulation to them that trouble you: 7 And to you who are troubled, rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with the angels of his power: 8 In a flame of fire, giving vengeance to them who know not God and who obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 Who shall suffer eternal punishment in destruction, from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his power: 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints and to be made wonderful in all them who have believed; because our testimony was believed upon you in that day. 11 Wherefore also we pray always for you: That our God would make you worthy of his vocation and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness and the work of faith in power: 12 That the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and of the Lord Jesus Christ.

In Latin from the Clementine Vulgate:

1 Paulus, et Sylvanus, et Timotheus, ecclesiæ Thessalonicensium in Deo Patre nostro, et Domino Jesu Christo. 2 Gratia vobis, et pax a Deo Patre nostro, et Domino Jesu Christo.
3 Gratias agere debemus semper Deo pro vobis, fratres, ita ut dignum est, quoniam supercrescit fides vestra, et abundat caritas uniuscujusque vestrum in invicem: 4 ita ut et nos ipsi in vobis gloriemur in ecclesiis Dei, pro patientia vestra, et fide, et in omnibus persecutionibus vestris, et tribulationibus, quas sustinetis 5 in exemplum justi judicii Dei, ut digni habeamini in regno Dei, pro quo et patimini. 6 Si tamen justum est apud Deum retribuere tribulationem iis qui vos tribulant: 7 et vobis, qui tribulamini, requiem nobiscum in revelatione Domini Jesu de cælo cum angelis virtutis ejus, 8 in flamma ignis dantis vindictam iis qui non noverunt Deum, et qui non obediunt Evangelio Domini nostri Jesu Christi, 9 qui pœnas dabunt in interitu æternas a facie Domini, et a gloria virtutis ejus: 10 cum venerit glorificari in sanctis suis, et admirabilis fieri in omnibus, qui crediderunt, quia creditum est testimonium nostrum super vos in die illo. 11 In quo etiam oramus semper pro vobis: ut dignetur vos vocatione sua Deus noster, et impleat omnem voluntatem bonitatis, et opus fidei in virtute, 12 ut clarificetur nomen Domini nostri Jesu Christi in vobis, et vos in illo secundum gratiam Dei nostri, et Domini Jesu Christi.

ticker · Dec 22, 2008

Hey...nothing like a "There is no hell" thread to bring people of all denominations to actually agree on something, huh?

Cograts bro...you've accomplished something no one in the history of these boards ever has!

EDIT:

...just ribbin, bro.

JacktheCatholic · Dec 22, 2008

MichaelTheeArchAngel said:
Isaiah 33 (New International Version)

As a Judaeo Christian I think you believe all that Chrisitians and Jews believe that are in common. Yet you post about no Hell???

I am certain both the Jews and Christians believe in Hell.

There is no hell.

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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Praise be to Jesus Christ. Now and forever.

Praise be to Jesus Christ. Now and forever.

Senior Member

Praise be to Jesus Christ. Now and forever.

Praise be to Jesus Christ. Now and forever.

Praise be to Jesus Christ. Now and forever.

Senior Member

Praise be to Jesus Christ. Now and forever.

Well-Known Member

Senior Member

Praise be to Jesus Christ. Now and forever.

Praise be to Jesus Christ. Now and forever.

Well-Known Member

Praise be to Jesus Christ. Now and forever.

Praise be to Jesus Christ. Now and forever.

...at your service!

Praise be to Jesus Christ. Now and forever.

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