There is no hell.

ShermanN · Dec 18, 2009

angelmom01 said:
HI Sherman,

Why "in the afterlife" when Christ said "I am come to send fire on the earth" and "NOW is the judgment of this world"?

Hi back-at-ya angelmom01,

The reason I believe Gehenna primarily speaks of punishment, specifically remedial punishment, in the afterlife is because I believe this is the predominant use of the religious metaphor Gehenna in the rabbinical discussions of Jesus' day, especially in regards to most people.

The scriptures you alluded to require their own interpretation based on their own context. If you'll note them specifically, I'll gladly look at them and share with you what I believe them to be saying in their context. Of hand, I'd like to note that the eternal judgment (remedial conviction and punishment of God) sometimes breaks through into our temporal reality and effects the will of God - as in the physical destruction by fire of Sodom and Gomorrah. And I personally have encountered the remedial conviction, judgment of God. It was like fire purifying me of the bad attitudes He judged. It was terrible, but worked a good work in me.

When studying scripture, I tend to do so from a biblical theological perspective, as opposed to a systematic theological perspective. In other words, I do my best to understand and interpret each passage based on its context, instead of interpreting it based on a set of systematic theological beliefs.

A Text without a Context is a Pretext - an assumed meaning that often misses the author's intent!

angelmom01 · Dec 18, 2009

ShermanN said:
Hi back-at-ya angelmom01,

Christine, here.

The reason I believe Gehenna primarily speaks of punishment, specifically remedial punishment, in the afterlife is because I believe this is the predominant use of the religious metaphor Gehenna in the rabbinical discussions of Jesus' day, especially in regards to most people.

I agree that it is a metaphor for remedial punishment.

And I, too, used to see it as being relevant to that which takes place "in the afterlife" (post physical death, for the wicked, as opposed to "that fiery trial which is to try you" that applies to believers "in this world"). But further study has all but caused me to abandon that position. Partly because of the two referenced I already made - but also because of many others.

If "now" is the judgment of this world, then why are we are waiting from "another" judgment postmortem?

Scripture says that Christ came once do die (as it is appointed unto men) and after this the judgment. Hence Christ saying: "I am come to send fire on the earth" and "now is the judgment of this world". Not to mention (ok, so I am ) that "The way of LIFE IS ABOVE to the wise that he may depart from HELL BENEATH".

I now see it as a dividing between THE NIGHT (= "yeterday" when it is past) and THE DAY (= "today" when we hear his voice and harden not our hearts); between that which is "above" (= "not of this world") and that which is "beneath" (= "of this world"); a dividing between the flesh and the spirit, the natural and the spiritual, if you will.

Christ said: "Ye are FROM BENEATH; I am FROM ABOVE: ye are OF THIS WORLD; I am NOT OF THIS WORLD" (John 8:23)

Compare that to Pro 15:24 (above).

The scriptures you alluded to require their own interpretation based on their own context.

Agreed. Though I believe that part of considering "the context" of certain scriptures involves "comparing spiritual things with spiritual".

If you'll note them specifically, I'll gladly look at them and share with you what I believe them to be saying in their context.

Luke 12:49; John 12:31; and now Heb 9:24-28 and Pro 15:24.

Of hand, I'd like to note that the eternal judgment (remedial conviction and punishment of God) sometimes breaks through into our temporal reality and effects the will of God - as in the physical destruction by fire of Sodom and Gomorrah. And I personally have encountered the remedial conviction, judgment of God. It was like fire purifying me of the bad attitudes He judged. It was terrible, but worked a good work in me.

No doubt.

But does not the wrath of God already abide upon the wicked (ie "the dead" or those who "sleep", who sleep "in the night" / "darkness")?

When studying scripture, I tend to do so from a biblical theological perspective, as opposed to a systematic theological perspective. In other words, I do my best to understand and interpret each passage based on its context, instead of interpreting it based on a set of systematic theological beliefs.

A Text without a Context is a Pretext - an assumed meaning that often misses the author's intent!

To me, it's not a matter of saying "there in no hell" (the premise of this thread) but determining what and where "hell" is and what purpose it serves.

Rajni · Dec 18, 2009

angelmom01 said:
If "now" is the judgment of this world, then why are we are waiting from "another" judgment postmortem?

Scripture says that Christ came once do die (as it is appointed unto men) and after this the judgment. Hence Christ saying: "I am come to send fire on the earth" and "now is the judgment of this world". Not to mention (ok, so I am ) that "The way of LIFE IS ABOVE to the wise that he may depart from HELL BENEATH".

You touched on something here that I've been thinking about lately.

In Hebrews it says that man is appointed to die once, and then the judgment. I used to think that it was referring to the physical death of each individual followed by their individual post-mortem "assessment".

However, there are cases where people have died physically more than once and have been revived. So now I'm thinking that maybe the passage is referring to spiritual death of mankind, overall, in Adam, which literally did happen only once.

Likewise, the judgment which followed that kind of death is as that to which you referred above. In John 12:31, Jesus says "Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out." "Now" meaning back then, in the context of the time-frame in which Jesus was speaking.

John 3:19 defines "the judgment" as this: "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil."

So it seems that the whole death-judgment package already came and went at a certain point back in history. This is not to say that non-believers who died/will die since that time won't experience at least some discomfort of the sort that comes with being faced with a reality they had, up to that point, denied: the reality of God Himself. But I do think that this makes a specially-designed place of post-mortem misery not only unlikely but also just plain unnecessary in light of the decisive victory Christ achieved on the cross -- and when it was achieved -- for all mankind.

.
.

angelmom01 · Dec 18, 2009

chaela said:
You touched on something here that I've been thinking about lately.

HI Chaela!

In Hebrews it says that man is appointed to die once, and then the judgment. I used to think that it was referring to the physical death of each individual followed by their individual post-mortem "assessment".

Except that that is not what that passage is addressing. That passage is addressing the death of Jesus Christ, specifically.

However, there are cases where people have died physically more than once and have been revived. So now I'm thinking that maybe the passage is referring to spiritual death of mankind, overall, in Adam, which literally did happen only once.

On this I would tend to agree. I don't see how physical death plays into anything when it comes to spiritual truths. Men die physically because they are mortal. Men ARE DEAD (spiritually speaking) because they sin and can even be "twice dead" (and, perhaps, need to be... being found not only "in Adam" but also "in Christ", the last Adam - through Whom "the resurrection of the dead" comes).

Likewise, the judgment which followed that kind of death is as that to which you referred above. In John 12:31, Jesus says "Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out." "Now" meaning back then, in the context of the time-frame in which Jesus was speaking.

John 3:19 defines "the judgment" as this: "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil."

So it seems that the whole death-judgment package already came and went at a certain point back in history. This is not to say that non-believers who died/will die since that time won't experience at least some discomfort of the sort that comes with being faced with a reality they had, up to that point, denied: the reality of God Himself. But I do think that this makes a specially-designed place of post-mortem misery not only unlikely but also just plain unnecessary in light of the decisive victory Christ achieved on the cross -- and when it was achieved -- for all mankind.

AMEN! Eternal life is TO KNOW GOD and Jesus Christ whom He sent and FEW there be that "have" LIFE. It is about our relationship with God NOW, not about "eternity"; as even "the dead in Christ" shall the Lord bring with Him.

angelmom01 · Dec 18, 2009

Hi LLoJ; it's been a while.

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 18, 2009

angelmom01 said:
Hi LLoJ; it's been a while.

Greetings sis!
I just went to the JW board and noticed there wasn't a thread on "hell", so I decided to create one

http://www.christianforums.com/t7426189/
What are the JW's view of hell in the Bible

angelmom01 · Dec 18, 2009

LittleLambofJesus said:
Greetings sis!
I just went to the JW board and noticed there wasn't a thread on "hell", so I decided to create one

http://www.christianforums.com/t7426189/
What are the JW's view of hell in the Bible

NO replies yet, but I'll try to remember to check back again later.

angelmom01 · Dec 18, 2009

chaela said:
You touched on something here that I've been thinking about lately.
.

This is an old thread, but you might be interested in reading it if that passage in Proverbs interests you.

The WAY OF LIFE is ABOVE... DEPART FROM HELL BENEATH

Rajni · Dec 18, 2009

angelmom01 said:
This is an old thread, but you might be interested in reading it if that passage in Proverbs interests you.

The WAY OF LIFE is ABOVE... DEPART FROM HELL BENEATH

Cool - I'll check it out!

.

Rajni · Dec 18, 2009

angelmom01 said:
This is an old thread, but you might be interested in reading it if that passage in Proverbs interests you.

The WAY OF LIFE is ABOVE... DEPART FROM HELL BENEATH

So if I'm understanding your posts in that thread correctly, essentially Hell isn't "down in the basement", but rather here on the Main Floor (using a house analogy)?

.

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 18, 2009

chaela said:
So if I'm understanding your posts in that thread correctly, essentially Hell isn't "down in the basement", but rather here on the Main Floor (using a house analogy)?

.

Where is the "lake of fire" located at?

Reve 19:20 and is arrested the Beast and with it the False Prophet, the one doing the signs in view of it, in which has deceived the ones getting the mark of the beast and the ones worshipping to the image of it.
Living were cast the two into the Lake of the Fire of the one burning in sulphur/qeiw <2303>.

Reve 20:10 And the Devil, the one-deceiving them, was cast into the Lake of the fire and of sulfur, the where-are the beast and the false-prophet,
and they shall be being tormented day and night into the Ages of the Ages.

http://www.christianforums.com/t1630728/
The Lake of Fire revealed!

angelmom01 · Dec 18, 2009

chaela said:
So if I'm understanding your posts in that thread correctly, essentially Hell isn't "down in the basement", but rather here on the Main Floor (using a house analogy)?

.

More or less. But "in the earth" can be seen as twofold, I think - in relation to "the body of this death" (from which Paul desired to be redeemed) whose throat is "an open sepulcher" and who tongue "is a world of iniquity.... set on fire of hell/Gehenna".

Der Alte · Dec 18, 2009

ShermanN said:
[ . . . ]Concerning Shammai and Hillel's beliefs concerning Gehenna, I'm suprised you haven't ran across that in your studies, and noticed that most of the references noted in the article from the Jewish Encyclopedia come from many years after the 1st century. As you know, Shammai and Hillel are the most significant Rabbinical scholars influencing the time of Christ. Note the following quote:

One should not assume that I have/have not heard of something because I ask for documentation for unsupported assertions.

There will be three groups on the Day of Judgment: one of thoroughly righteous people, one of thoroughly wicked people and one of people in between. The first group will be immediately inscribed for everlasting life; the second group will be doomed in Gehinnom [Hell], as it says, "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to reproaches and everlasting abhorrence" [Daniel 12:2], the third will go down to Gehinnom and squeal and rise again, as it says, "And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried. They shall call on My name and I will answer them" [Zechariah 13:9]... [Babylonian Talmud, tractate Rosh Hashanah 16b-17a]

The school of Hillel suggested a more merciful view, in which the middle group are sent directly to Gan Eden (Heaven) instead of Gehinnom after death. Rabbi Hanina added that all who go down to Gehinnom will go up again, except adulterers, those who put their fellows to shame in public, and those who call their fellows by an obnoxious name [Babylonian Talmud, tractate Baba Metzia 58b].
Jewish Beliefs on the Afterlife - ReligionFacts[/size]

Note that even for Shammai most people fit into the 2nd group, the group believed to go to Gehenna and then rise again to Gan Eden. Hillel was much more merciful believing that most people don't even go to Gehenna.

The point is, which I have already established, the ancient Jews, before and at the time of Jesus, believed in a place of eternal, i.e. unending, punishment for the unrighteous. The teachings of Jesus did NOT contradict but supported that teaching.

Merely dismissing my understanding of Mk.9.49 as "out-of-context" without presenting a different understanding of the verse is useless, as well as presenting a list of other scriptures and assuming that I or others interpret and understand them the same as you do (proof-texting). I find it much better to take one scripture at a time, studying it together within its own context. If you'd like to present your understanding of Mk.9.49 I'll gladly consider it.

I did not "merely dismiss" anything, I presented some discussion on Mk 9:49, in my post and in the two posts I linked to. In those two posts I cite every passage where Jesus discusses the fate of the unrighteous, in the order they occur in the NT. I don't think anyone can get more contextual than that.

The passage under consideration is Mark 9:42-49, not Mt.25. In Mk.9.42, the "little ones" under consideration are "little ones who believe in me", those who are children in faith. It closely follows 9.36-37 which says, "36He took a little child and had him stand among them. Taking him in his arms, he said to them, 37"Whoever welcomes one of these little children in my name welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me does not welcome me but the one who sent me."

So it is your interpretation that the "little children" will all be salted with fire?

First note that I didn't say that salt was "only" but "also" used as a preservative; my point was that it was used in purification, cleansing. And from what you wrote above it seems that you are equating "every one" with "every sacrifice", and then by saying that sacrifices are destroyed by fire, you're implying that this scripture somehow says that everyone shall be destroyed by fire. I don't really know what you're trying to say here.

What I am saying is your interpretation is refuted by the immediate context, and the greater context as seen in Jesus use of phrases such as "little ones", etc.!

In this passage, Mk.9.42-50, Jesus uses the fires of Gehenna as a warning to the disciples, warning them to be careful how they treat children in faith. It immediately follows 9.38-41 where John asks if they should stop someone not part of their group from performing miracles in the Jesus' name, which follows Jesus' discourse on the greatest in the kingdom being like a little child.

Note that Jesus is warning the disciples, his apostles of Gehenna, warning that if they, the disciples, sin against children in faith, they will suffer in Gehenna. This passage is not speaking of the judgment of unbelievers, but of the judgment of believers, especially those in leadership - or at least that's what the passage says.

And then Jesus concludes by saying that "Everyone shall be salted by fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt." To be salted, is to be sprinkled, to be flavored, to be purified. Considering that Jesus is warning the disciples of Gehenna, and that the Jews understood Gehenna to be a place of purification, it only makes sense that Jesus is warning the diciples of some form of Remedial Punishment in the afterlife. In fact, everyone shall be subjected to such Remedial Punishment. And not only "every-one" but "every-thing", every sacrifice, every thing we do for the Lord, all of our "works" shall be subjected to fire, purified, salted with salt! Things that are worthless will be burnt up, and even that which is done as inspired by the Lord shall be purified!

So in this passage, Jesus uses Gehenna as a warning of Remedial Judgment and Punishment in the afterlife for Believers; and He is not even speaking of the judgment or punishment of unbelievers.

The reason I highlighted this passage was to note that Jesus used Gehenna, at least in this passage, to speak of Remedial Punishment and Remedial Judgment in the afterlife.

You were doing pretty good until you started interjecting your assumptions/presuppositions, highlighted in red. Even the source you quoted shows that the 1st century Jews believed that Gehenna was NOT remedial.

The note about "not being judgmental towards others" is a message that I got from the passage, though it is not specifically stated. Jesus warns the disciples of Gehenna in response to their negative attitude towards and proposed actions against another believer who was working miracles in the name of Jesus though they did not know him, only knowing he was not part of their "little select group". And of course, this follows Jesus directly challenging their selfish attitudes related to who's the greatest among them.

Such analysis comes from looking at the literary context of the passage, instead of just pulling it out of context. Of course, you're welcome to disregard what I've shared and even just arbitrarily denounce it as, what did you say, "eisegesis" and "humanistic rationalization"; or you can present what you believe Mark 9:42-50 is saying based on your understanding of its context.

I have presented my arguments here is this thread and in the posts that I linked to.

I believe it's much better to light a light than to curse (denounce) the darkness. If you understand this passage differently, please do present what you believe and why you believe it.

I haven't seen any meaningful discussion of the evidence I have presented.

Citizen of the Kingdom · Dec 18, 2009

angelmom01 said:
I didn't say that humans have immortality, but how do angels not have immortality, when Christ was made "a little lower than the angels" FOR THE SUFFERING OF DEATH and Christ said that in the resurrection "neither can they die anymore" FOR THEY ARE EQUAL UNTO THE ANGELS?

Look to me like "angels" cannot die (anymore)? But then who are "the angels"?

Only Christ has immortality, but that doesn't mean that others do not have LIFE AND IMMORTALITY through Jesus Christ.

Indeed, the dead ARE DEAD; but you are looking at "death" only according to the flesh and refusing to address not only the verses that I posted but the verses that Der Alter posted that clearly show 'activity' in sheol/hades.

Why?

Even the parable of Lazarus and the rich man shows that "the dead" ("in hades" and being "tormented in this flame"; note the 'singular' flame and 'where' that flame resides <--- on his tongue) are conscious, when it comes to spiritual truths.

If angels have immortality and if the renewal of the spirit resurrects to eternity then those in the lake of fire have eternity in their chosen place away from God. osas would have just angels there imo

angelmom01 · Dec 18, 2009

Evangelica said:
If angels have immortality

Why would you think that they don't?

and if the renewal of the spirit resurrects to eternity

I'm not sure what this means, can you explain?

then those in the lake of fire have eternity in their chosen place away from God.

The Lake of Fire is judgment; it is the wrath of God being poured out upon the disobedient and those who believe not. They are already "separated from God", which is not to say that it lasts for "eternity" when we know that "the way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath". Truly, they have no rest day or night, but what does day and night have to do with eternity (where there is no night)?

osas

Not sure what that stands for?

would have just angels there imo

Just angels where? in hell?

Der Alte · Dec 18, 2009

angelmom01 said:
osas

Click to expand...

Not sure what that stands for?

Once Saved Always Saved.

Citizen of the Kingdom · Dec 18, 2009

Originally Posted by Evangelica
If angels have immortality
Why would you think that they don't?

If as in making a point

and if the renewal of the spirit resurrects to eternity
I'm not sure what this means, can you explain?

if your not once saved always saved osas then being bornagain can have consequences if you don't endure.

then those in the lake of fire have eternity in their chosen place away from God.
The Lake of Fire is judgment; it is the wrath of God being poured out upon the disobedient and those who believe not. They are already "separated from God", which is not to say that it lasts for "eternity" when we know that "the way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath". Truly, they have no rest day or night, but what does day and night have to do with eternity (where there is no night)?

the lake of fire has no further prophesy after Rev 22

would have just angels there imo
Just angels where? in hell?

In the lake of fire, since rebirth is for eternal and if you believe the osas then who out of the eternally progressed would be there.
This is assuming that those who aren't reborn have no eternal life.

angelmom01 · Dec 18, 2009

Der Alter said:
Once Saved Always Saved.

I thought maybe that was it but wasn't sure what that had to do with my post so thought maybe that wasn't it. Thanks.

angelmom01 · Dec 18, 2009

Evangelica said:
If as in making a point

Ok, but according to Christ angels "cannot die" so where is the "if"?

if your not once saved always saved osas then being bornagain can have consequences if you don't endure.

One can only be "born again" by being begotten from above by the spirit of God. If Christ is in you how can you lose "not" endure to the end and lose your salvation?

the lake of fire has no further prophesy after Rev 22

The book of Revelation is symbolic and has to do with the Revelation of Jesus Christ. And who is that is destroyed by the brightness of His coming?

In the lake of fire,

All liars, murderers, adulterers, etc have their part in the lake of fire.

since rebirth is for eternal and if you believe the osas then who out of the eternally progressed would be there.

I still have no idea what you are saying/asking?

This is assuming that those who aren't reborn have no eternal life.

Again no idea what you are saying, as to be "reborn" is to have "eternal life".

Citizen of the Kingdom · Dec 18, 2009

angelmom01 said:
Ok, but according to Christ angels "cannot die" so where is the "if"?

There is no if, angels are etarnal.

One can only be "born again" by being begotten from above by the spirit of God. If Christ is in you how can you lose "not" endure to the end and lose your salvation?

You wouldn't lose salvation to eternal life, but you can lose rewards. imo that can remove you from the final destination of the new Jerusalem, placing self in jeprudy of having to face satan when he is loosed. The Father gives eternal life in the eternal.

The book of Revelation is symbolic and has to do with the Revelation of Jesus Christ. And who is that is destroyed by the brightness of His coming?

What do you mean?

There is no hell.

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