JudaicChristian
Well-Known Member
You are so full of biscuits and gravy that there is no reason for us to speak to each other.
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NO, ZERO, NONE evidence. Just your unsupported opinion!
I worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of Jesus. I am not the least bit interested in your secular humanistic rationalizations to make God fit your assumptions/presuppositions while you continue to present your opinion and zero evidence.
There is no scripture that contradicts other scripture on any subject. The way you "see" anything is totally irrelevant.
Pre-judgment, describing an occurrence in this lifetime and Rev. is post-judgment, describing something man does not have any direct knowledge of.
How come?*snip*
.....Pre-judgment, describing an occurrence in this lifetime and Rev. is post-judgment, describing something man does not have any direct knowledge of.
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
You are so full of biscuits and gravy that there is no reason for us to speak to each other.
The verses you claim are evidence are only evidence of your opinion.
And the smoke of their torment ascends up forever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receives the mark of his name.
Some assume that this verse refers to immortal souls burning forever in hell.
The time frame of what is described here is yet to come. The passage is referring to Babylon (vs. 8), that great city, because she made all nations drink of her fornication. This is the final, religious/political, end- time revival of the Roman Empire also described in Daniel 2:42-43 as the toes, and in Daniel 7:7, 24 as the tenth horn. Revelation 13 describes it as the seventh and last horn, and Revelation 17:12 describes it as the seventh head, having ten horns (which has not yet appeared).
Revelation 14:9-10 states, If any man worship the beast [this final end- time revival] and his image, and receive his mark he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the Lamb. As long as the people who are participating in this beast system continue to rebel against God, they will receive no rest day nor night (vs. 11). This does not state that they will be burning in hell for eternity. What it does say is that once their bodies are burned up, the smoke ascends forever. The fire extinguishes itself but the gases from the smoke will continue to circulate in the atmosphere.
The fire that is talked about is here on this earth not in an ever- burning hell. Malachi plainly states, And you shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, says the Lord of hosts (4:3).
LOL... You're funny.Let's start with your false understanding of Mal 4:3 first. Is it your "opinion" that throughout eternity the righteous who have been saved will be trampling the ashes of the unrighteous under their feet in paradise? Or does this vs. describe a one time event which happens "in that day" i.e. the day of judgment, as it clearly says?
Then your repetition of the other argument I already addressed. John did NOT say the smoke would "continue to circulate in the atmosphere." He said "the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever" And as I have already explained smoke does NOT ascend up for ever and ever. At some point it stops rising and dissipates. Anyone who has ever watched any kind of fire, even John would have known this.
And once again, why would John waste time, effort, and writing space on his scroll describing something that would have been of no concern to anybody? People who have ceased to exist could not have cared less about what happened to the smoke. Was John trying to prettify the torment of the unrighteous by talking about the smoke?
The Hell There Is!
The doctrine of hell is so frightening that numerous heretical sects end up denying the reality of an eternal hell. The Unitarian-Universalists, the Seventh-Day Adventists, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Christadelphians, the Christian Scientists, the Religious Scientists, the New Agers, and the Mormons—all have rejected or modified the doctrine of hell so radically that it is no longer a serious threat. In recent decades, this decay has even invaded mainstream Evangelicalism, and a number of major Evangelical figures have advocated the view that there is no eternal hell—the wicked will simply be annihilated.
But the eternal nature of hell is stressed in the New Testament. For example, in Mark 9:47–48 Jesus warns us, "t is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched." And in Revelation 14:11, we read: "And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."
Hell is not just a theoretical possibility. Jesus warns us that real people go there. He says, "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few" (Matt. 7:13–14).
The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, ‘eternal fire.’ The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs" (CCC 1035).
In his 1994 book, Crossing the Threshold of Hope, Pope John Paul II wrote that too often "preachers, catechists, teachers . . . no longer have the courage to preach the threat of hell" (p. 183).
Concerning the reality of hell, the pope says, "In point of fact, the ancient councils rejected the theory . . . according to which the world would be regenerated after destruction, and every creature would be saved; a theory which abolished hell. . . . [T]he words of Christ are unequivocal. In Matthew’s Gospel he speaks clearly of those who will go to eternal punishment (cf. Matt. 25:46). [But] who will these be? The Church has never made any pronouncement in this regard" (pp. 185–6).
Thus the issue that some will go to hell is decided, but the issue of who in particular will go to hell is undecided.
The early Church Fathers were also absolutely firm on the reality of an eternal hell, as the following quotes show......<snip>
A brief excerpt from "The Hell There Is!"
source link
Click Here to read the early Christan quotes mentioned
But those who deny that there is a place of eternal, unending punishment for the unrighteous will not even review the evidence you have posted. They will ignore it and continue to copy/paste their canned responses from places like Hellmakers and Tentbusters.
There is a discussion going on in another topic about this. This sounds like Emergent Church theology and belief.There is no hell. The words in scripture were not correctly translated into English. The joining of the Pagan religion about hell is a Catholic invention.See Holman Bible Dictionary at: HELL - Holman Bible Dictionary on StudyLight.org
....There is no hell. The words in scripture were not correctly translated into English. The joining of the Pagan religion about hell is a Catholic invention......
So we invented hell, eh?
Darn clever of us.
There is a discussion going on in another topic about this. This sounds like Emergent Church theology and belief.
Is that what I said? Did I say that Catholics invented hell, or did I say they joined the Pagan belief of hell to scripture?
(deleted by k)
What is this doctrine that Catholics teach: You will not surly die, but you will be tortured in Hell for all eternity, unless you repent and find salvation in the Catholic Church.......
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