There are Two Creation Stories in Genesis

SkyWriting · Aug 30, 2020

Dale said:
Each of these stories has its purpose but as literal story they can't be reconciled.

All history stories are fictional accounts. You can't reconcile fiction, only compare it.

Abraxos · Aug 30, 2020

Dale said:
In summary, in the first creation story, God creates plants, then animals, then people. In the second creation story, God first creates the man, Adam, then plants, then animals, and then the woman, Eve. Each of these stories has its purpose but as literal story they can't be reconciled.

Disagree. Genesis 1 and 2 are not two different creation accounts but are an explanation of the same creation account. Genesis 1 is talking broadly about what God did from day one to day six, and Gen. 2 talks only about day six about an enclosed area called Eden, and what happened within it.

Gen. 1 as people would have gathered is a general explanation about the creation account of the heaven and the earth, and the creation of all the plants and animals on the earth. You will also notice that the word 'earth' is used frequently. (Genesis 1:11-12) "The vegetation and plants of the earth." "The animals and the beasts of the earth." (Genesis 1:24-25)
Genesis two, on the other hand, is no longer describing what takes place on the earth, rather it is being more specific as "in the field". This may seem like a minor alteration of word usage in the English language, but to a keen eye, it is highly relevant.
The context in chapter 2:5, these "plants of the field" are described as "cultivated plants." Chapter 1 certainly mentioned vegetations and fruits, yet the difference with Gen. 2 is that verse 5 is quite clear that these plants of the field need a man to cultivate them, hence, the plants of the field are cultivated plants. Furthermore, 'of the field' can be translated as "cultivated field," and it only stands to reason that gardens contain plants that require cultivation. Verse 8 pretty much verifies that 'plants of the field' is referring to a garden and is cultivated by Adam later in verse 15.

To further reiterate, the field is in a specific location God named Eden; and in Eden God placed a garden there. Now "garden" in Hebrew can also mean an enclosure or an enclosed field; this changed the context to be speaking about specific types of animals, and specific types of birds, and specific types of plants of the field/garden. For example "birds of enclosure" would come to mean "domesticated fowls." It could also be open to animals that are not particularly domesticated but are reliant on the enclosure, like ecosystem gardening and agriculture we see today.

The key point is, Genesis chapter 1 is generally about the creation order from day one to day six, and Gen. chapter 2 is talking specifically about the account on day six. It may certainly appear like two different creation accounts, but once you have a fair understanding of the Hebrew texts and its meanings, it becomes much more profound with a wealth of detail.

fwGod · Aug 31, 2020

Dale said:
In the first creation story, Genesis 1, plants are created on the third day.

11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.
Genesis 1:11-13 NIV

Still in the first creation story, God creates fish, sea creatures and birds on the fifth day.

20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.” 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.” 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.
Genesis 1: 20-23 NIV

Then God creates land animals and an undetermined number of people on the sixth day.

24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.”
And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”
Genesis 1: 24-28 NIV

The second creation account starts in Genesis 2:4.

4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, when the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.
Genesis 2:4 NIV

We are specifically told that there is "no shrub" and "no plant" when Adam, the first man, is created.

5 Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth and no plant had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no one to work the ground, 6 but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground. 7 Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
Genesis 2:5-7 NIV

The second creation story gives the impression that plants are made to make Adam comfortable. The tenses here are confusing and I'll say more about that later.

8 Now the Lord God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. 9 The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Genesis 2:8-9 NIV

In the first creation story, birds (and fish) are created before land animals while in the second creation story, land animals and birds are created at the same time. In the first story, plants and animals are created before people while in the second, Adam is created before plants and animals. Again, the creation of animals is related to Adam's comfort, since the text distinguishes between "livestock" and "wild animals." The creation of land animals and birds is closely connected with their presentation to Adam.

19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals.
Genesis 2:19-20 NIV

God announces the intention to create Eve, to create the first woman, in verse 18. He does not actually do so until verses 21-23, after the creation and presentation of birds, livestock and wild animals.

18 The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.”
...
21 So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs and then closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.
23 The man said,
“This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called ‘woman,’
for she was taken out of man.”
24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.
25 Adam and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.
Genesis 2:18-25 NIV

In summary, in the first creation story, God creates plants, then animals, then people. In the second creation story, God first creates the man, Adam, then plants, then animals, and then the woman, Eve. Each of these stories has its purpose but as literal story they can't be reconciled.

You have to remember that it was written or scribed by Moses as directed by God. So the text isn't going to follow your ideas of how it ought to be presented.

Don't get too hung up on when what happens per day. You'll miss the overall flow if you do. Then your brain will have trouble reconciling the events of the days according to the first mention in the creation week.

The first text of the creation week is the overview. The second text of the creation process is void of what day they happen, and have more detail in each case.

The second part of the creation week the author picks out certain happenings to detail them. Not paying any attention to when they occurred in Genesis one.

I've seen this sort of thing done by authors in books, they're known to do the same thing. Overview. Then the next chapter is details. Then chapter three moves into details about Adam and Eve specifically such as eating from the tree and the various curses.

Not counting the numerical chapters as chapters. The numerations were added much much much later.

Chapters (act) 1 & (act) 2 reconcile themselves as a literary writing or a theatrical play if you will, that sets the scene for chapter (act) three.

Movie directors have done the same. They'd start with the wide view, then move the camera closer, then do the camera shots of a particular character and what he or she is doing. Then you get all caught up in what you're looking at instead of anything else that's around you. As if you've been transported to stand just a few feet from the actual events.

Read it the way that it was intended to be read then you won't be like a stuck gear trying to keep things in order, but you can pick out anything out of sequence to focus on.

-57 · Aug 31, 2020

ewq1938 said:
There's no contradictions in my exegesis of the chapters and I didn't "mess up" anything nor did God. The issue here is the lack of understanding Hebrew verbs and their tenses.

People with an understanding of Hebrew Verb and tenses tell us a "had" is proper.

There is a contradiction with your account as it calls for a date error or tells us God created all the animals twice. I don't think God created all the animals twice.

-57 · Aug 31, 2020

Cis.jd said:
They are not literal stories.

Also, everyone knew about this for thousands of years.

Not literal stores....GREAT!!!! then there was no literal fall!!!!

Dale · Aug 31, 2020

ewq1938 said:
That isn't correct. Most translate not as "had formed".

My bible software has 26 translations. 5 translate it as had formed or similar while 21 translate it as formed or similar. The 21 adhere to Hebrew grammar and the tense of the verb while 5 do not.

Had formed:

Genesis 2:19
(Darby) And out of the ground Jehovah Elohim had formed every animal of the field and all fowl of the heavens, and brought them to Man, to see what he would call them; and whatever Man called each living soul, that was its name.
(DRB) And the Lord God having formed out of the ground all the beasts of the earth, and all the fowls of the air, brought them to Adam to see what he would call them: for whatsoever Adam called any living creature the same is its name.
(ESV) Now out of the ground the LORD God had formed every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. And whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name.
(GW) The LORD God had formed all the wild animals and all the birds out of the ground. Then he brought them to the man to see what he would call them. Whatever the man called each creature became its name.
(TLV) Adonai Elohim had formed from the ground every animal of the field and every flying creature of the sky, so He brought them to the man to see what he would call them. Whatever the man called them—each living creature—that was its name.

Formed:

Genesis 2:19
(ABP+) AndG2532 God shapedG4111 G3588 G2316 yetG2089 from out ofG1537 theG3588 earthG1093 allG3956 theG3588 wild beastsG2342 of theG3588 field,G68 andG2532 allG3956 theG3588 winged creaturesG4071 of theG3588 heaven.G3772 AndG2532 he ledG71 themG1473 toG4314 G3588 Adam,G* to beholdG1492 whatG5100 he would callG2564 them.G1473 AndG2532 allG3956 whatG3739 everG302 [2calledG2564 3itG1473 1Adam] --G* [2lifeG5590 1 the living],G2198 thisG3778 was the nameG3686 to it.G1473
(ASV) And out of the ground Jehovah God formed every beast of the field, and every bird of the heavens; and brought them unto the man to see what he would call them: and whatsoever the man called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
(BBE) And from the earth the Lord God made every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and took them to the man to see what names he would give them: and whatever name he gave to any living thing, that was its name.
(Brenton) And God formed yet farther out of the earth all the wild beasts of the field, and all the birds of the sky, and he brought them to Adam, to see what he would call them, and whatever Adam called any living creature, that was the name of it.
(CEV) So the LORD took some soil and made animals and birds. He brought them to the man to see what names he would give each of them. Then the man named the tame animals and the birds and the wild animals. That's how they got their names. None of these was the right kind of partner for the man.
(ERV) The LORD God used dust from the ground and made every animal in the fields and every bird in the air. He brought all these animals to the man, and the man gave them all a name.
(GNB) So he took some soil from the ground and formed all the animals and all the birds. Then he brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and that is how they all got their names.
(ISV) After the LORD God formed from the ground every wild animal and every bird that flies, he brought each of them to the man to see what he would call it. Whatever the man called each living creature became its name.
(JPS) And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto the man to see what he would call them; and whatsoever the man would call every living creature, that was to be the name thereof.
(JUB) And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called every living soul, that was its name.
(KJV) And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
(KJVA) And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
(KJV-BRG) And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
(LITV) And Jehovah God formed every animal of the field, and every bird of the heavens out of the ground. And He brought them to the man, to see what he would call it. And all which the man might call it, each living soul, that was its name.
(MKJV) And out of the ground Jehovah God formed every animal of the field and every fowl of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name.
(RV) And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto the man to see what he would call them: and whatsoever the man called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
(TS2009) And from the ground יהוה Elohim formed every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. And whatever the man called each living being, that was its name.
(WEB) Out of the ground Yahweh God formed every animal of the field, and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. Whatever the man called every living creature became its name.
(WEBA) Out of the ground Yahweh God formed every animal of the field, and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. Whatever the man called every living creature became its name.
(Webster) And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them; and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was its name.
(YLT) And Jehovah God formeth from the ground every beast of the field, and every fowl of the heavens, and bringeth in unto the man, to see what he doth call it; and whatever the man calleth a living creature, that is its name.

Thanks for your extensive research on what various translations say on this.

JulieB67 · Aug 31, 2020

There are two different creation accounts, you're right. That's why Cain was able to go east of Eden to the land of Nod and found a wife. Although many will tell you he married a sister even though that's not biblical.

Adam and Eve is the line that Christ would come through that's why she specifically is called the mother of all "living." Because without Christ there is no eternal life.

Traditions of men make void the word of God for sure.

ewq1938 · Aug 31, 2020

-57 said:
People with an understanding of Hebrew Verb and tenses tell us a "had" is proper.

Had formed is only proper if the verb is in the perfect tense because the perfect refers to something already completed. The verb in question is in the imperfect tense because it was not a reference to a completed action.

There is a contradiction with your account as it calls for a date error or tells us God created all the animals twice. I don't think God created all the animals twice.

God created all kinds of animals in Gen 1, but in Gen 2 he is making animals for the garden. Also note he made no sealife in Gen 2 which is another difference in the two creation accounts.

Gen 2 is a smaller creation account in a smaller place where as Gen 1 details a much larger creation account in a larger area.

AV1611VET · Aug 31, 2020

ewq1938 said:
Gen 2 is a smaller creation account in a smaller place where as Gen 1 details a much larger creation account in a larger area.

I think some people are so quick to find something wrong with the Bible, they overlook the obvious.

They'll search every jot and tittle for just one little error.

ewq1938 · Aug 31, 2020

AV1611VET said:
I think some people are so quick to find something wrong with the Bible, they overlook the obvious.

They'll search every jot and tittle for just one little error.

They won't find errors in the bible but they can look if they wish.

Erik Nelson · Aug 31, 2020

Dale said:
If you are going to post links, it would be helpful if you would provide a brief summary of we will find there.

I did click on your link. Wondering who is responsible for that website, I clicked on About the Ministry. I got a Page Not Available. I'm not inclined to take a site seriously until I know who put it up and what they believe.

sure you're aware of the Documentary Hypothesis

If God in heaven contacted numerous prophets, who wrote numerous books of the Bible, which being distinct yet mesh together, so the same thing could have happened with the earlier accounts

Bruce Leiter · Aug 31, 2020

Dale said:
In the first creation story, Genesis 1, plants are created on the third day.

11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.
Genesis 1:11-13 NIV

Still in the first creation story, God creates fish, sea creatures and birds on the fifth day.

20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.” 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.” 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.
Genesis 1: 20-23 NIV

Then God creates land animals and an undetermined number of people on the sixth day.

24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.”
And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”
Genesis 1: 24-28 NIV

The second creation account starts in Genesis 2:4.

4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, when the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.
Genesis 2:4 NIV

We are specifically told that there is "no shrub" and "no plant" when Adam, the first man, is created.

5 Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth and no plant had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no one to work the ground, 6 but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground. 7 Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
Genesis 2:5-7 NIV

The second creation story gives the impression that plants are made to make Adam comfortable. The tenses here are confusing and I'll say more about that later.

8 Now the Lord God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. 9 The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Genesis 2:8-9 NIV

In the first creation story, birds (and fish) are created before land animals while in the second creation story, land animals and birds are created at the same time. In the first story, plants and animals are created before people while in the second, Adam is created before plants and animals. Again, the creation of animals is related to Adam's comfort, since the text distinguishes between "livestock" and "wild animals." The creation of land animals and birds is closely connected with their presentation to Adam.

19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals.
Genesis 2:19-20 NIV

God announces the intention to create Eve, to create the first woman, in verse 18. He does not actually do so until verses 21-23, after the creation and presentation of birds, livestock and wild animals.

18 The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.”
...
21 So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs and then closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.
23 The man said,
“This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called ‘woman,’
for she was taken out of man.”
24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.
25 Adam and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.
Genesis 2:18-25 NIV

In summary, in the first creation story, God creates plants, then animals, then people. In the second creation story, God first creates the man, Adam, then plants, then animals, and then the woman, Eve. Each of these stories has its purpose but as literal story they can't be reconciled.

No, they're the same creation story, the second adding more details to the first one. If you think about it, the same method happens in other places in the Bible. The accounts of 1 and 2 Kings and 1 and 2 Chronicles are the same history from two viewpoints. The same is true for the four gospels.

Dale · Aug 31, 2020

fwGod said:
You have to remember that it was written or scribed by Moses as directed by God. So the text isn't going to follow your ideas of how it ought to be presented.

Don't get too hung up on when what happens per day. You'll miss the overall flow if you do. Then your brain will have trouble reconciling the events of the days according to the first mention in the creation week.

The first text of the creation week is the overview. The second text of the creation process is void of what day they happen, and have more detail in each case.

The second part of the creation week the author picks out certain happenings to detail them. Not paying any attention to when they occurred in Genesis one.

I've seen this sort of thing done by authors in books, they're known to do the same thing. Overview. Then the next chapter is details. Then chapter three moves into details about Adam and Eve specifically such as eating from the tree and the various curses.

Not counting the numerical chapters as chapters. The numerations were added much much much later.

Chapters (act) 1 & (act) 2 reconcile themselves as a literary writing or a theatrical play if you will, that sets the scene for chapter (act) three.

Movie directors have done the same. They'd start with the wide view, then move the camera closer, then do the camera shots of a particular character and what he or she is doing. Then you get all caught up in what you're looking at instead of anything else that's around you. As if you've been transported to stand just a few feet from the actual events.

Read it the way that it was intended to be read then you won't be like a stuck gear trying to keep things in order, but you can pick out anything out of sequence to focus on.

FwGod,

I assume that your name is short for Follow God. Excellent.

FwGod: "You have to remember that it was written or scribed by Moses as directed by God."

When the Bible was written, you honored people by naming books after them, even if they didn't write it. We know that Deuteronomy wasn't written by Moses because Moses died and was buried by God in the last chapter. Moses wouldn't have been around to write it.

It is my understanding that names of books like Genesis and Exodus are taken from the titles that translators gave them in the Septuagint. The title of the book is not as old as the text.

Many have believed, or assumed, that the first five books of the Bible were written by Moses but the New Testament gives a different impression.

In the following passage, Jesus is debating with the Pharisees, and Jesus is speaking.

22 Yet, because Moses gave you circumcision (though actually it did not come from Moses, but from the patriarchs), you circumcise a boy on the Sabbath. 23 Now if a boy can be circumcised on the Sabbath so that the law of Moses may not be broken, why are you angry with me for healing a man’s whole body on the Sabbath?
John 7:22-24 NIV

22 Moses gave you circumcision (not that it is from Moses, but from the fathers), and you circumcise a man upon the sabbath. 23 If on the sabbath a man receives circumcision, so that the law of Moses may not be broken, are you angry with me because on the sabbath I made a man’s whole body well?
John 7:22-24 RSV

Here Jesus Himself tells us that circumcision should not be thought of as a command written down by Moses but as a tradition from "the fathers" or "the patriarchs."

FwGod: "The first text of the creation week is the overview. The second text of the creation process is void of what day they happen, and have more detail in each case."

This doesn't work out. The first creation story frequently refers to the sky and to heavenly bodies. We have "light" and "day" in verses 3-5. We have the sky "vault" in verses 7, 8, 14 and 17. We have the sun, moon and stars in verses 16-18. There is no mention of sun, moon, stars, or light in the second creation story and the sky is mentioned only in connection with birds. We do not find "more detail" on the sky and heavenly bodies.

In the first creation story, God tells the fish, sea creatures and birds to multiply, before people are created.

22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.”
Genesis 1: 22 NIV

After people are created, God gives dominion to humans and gives plants to the animals for food.

29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.
Genesis 1: 29 NIV

None of this is found in the second creation story. The command to multiply and the gift of plants for food to animals is omitted. The second creation story does not add to these points that were laid out in the first story, it goes in a different direction.

In the first creation story, God tells the animals to be fruitful and multiply. In the second, God tells Adam not to eat of the forbidden fruit. The commands are different and the accounts are different.

fwGod · Sep 1, 2020

Dale said:
FwGod,

I assume that your name is short for Follow God. Excellent.

F=filled, w=with, God.

FwGod: "You have to remember that it was written or scribed by Moses as directed by God."

When the Bible was written, you honored people by naming books after them, even if they didn't write it. We know that Deuteronomy wasn't written by Moses because Moses died and was buried by God in the last chapter. Moses wouldn't have been around to write it.

Read the post again, I never mentioned Deuteronomy. I only spoke concerning Genesis, the two creation records which Moses indeed did write.

It is my understanding that names of books like Genesis and Exodus are taken from the titles that translators gave them in the Septuagint. The title of the book is not as old as the text.

Many have believed, or assumed, that the first five books of the Bible were written by Moses but the New Testament gives a different impression.

In the following passage, Jesus is debating with the Pharisees, and Jesus is speaking.

22 Yet, because Moses gave you circumcision (though actually it did not come from Moses, but from the patriarchs), you circumcise a boy on the Sabbath.

You have deliberately added what is not in any Bible anywhere and then from it claim that is correct and not every Bible printed that doesn't have your inserted portion.

That is a mechanical private interpretation. That is classic eisegesis. That is false theology and false doctrine.

From where-ever you heard that it was the patriarchs.. between them and the words of Jesus.. I conclude that those who said it came from the patriarchs, are wrong.

There is no point in responding to the further of your post.

This discussion is over.

-57 · Sep 1, 2020

ewq1938 said:
Had formed is only proper if the verb is in the perfect tense because the perfect refers to something already completed. The verb in question is in the imperfect tense because it was not a reference to a completed action.

God created all kinds of animals in Gen 1, but in Gen 2 he is making animals for the garden. Also note he made no sealife in Gen 2 which is another difference in the two creation accounts.

Gen 2 is a smaller creation account in a smaller place where as Gen 1 details a much larger creation account in a larger area.

Speculation.
you appear to believe there is error all through out the bible.

JulieB67 · Sep 1, 2020

Bruce Leiter said:
No, they're the same creation story, the second adding more details to the first one. If you think about it,

I don't believe that to be the case. You're talking about different books/letters and authors.
And take the gospels for example, they compliment each other and give a complete picture without contradictions.

Going back to Genesis, it's not only the same book, we have to remember there were no chapters in the manuscripts. So what you're basically saying is that the author wrote the creation account down and then "immediately" wrote the same creation account down -and instead of complimenting each other, there are blatent contradictions to the first. That doesn't make sense. First, why would the author write "back to back" accounts of the same creation and then add the contradictions?

coffee4u · Sep 5, 2020

There is but one God and one creation and one death and one judgment.

Exodus 20:11
For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Dale · Sep 6, 2020

coffee4u said:
There is but one God and one creation and one death and one judgment.

Exodus 20:11
For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Obviously, God only created the world once but more than one creation story has come down to us. Just look at the opening to the second creation story in Genesis 2:4.

4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, when the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.
Genesis 2:4 NIV

This is definitely an introduction to a second story. It is at this point that the name of God changes from "Elohim" to "Jehovah-Elohim."

Dale · Sep 6, 2020

The first and second creation stories in Genesis are both composed with an eye to moral instruction. The first concludes :

Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.

By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.
Genesis 2:1-3 NIV

We see from Genesis 2:1 that "the heavens and the earth were completed." That means that the first creation story is completed as well. Then we are told that God rested on the seventh day. This is intended to back up the moral commandment of a day of rest. The day of rest means that employers are to give their employees a day off, that families must give their members, and servants, a day off. No one should have to work ceaselessly without rest or time to themselves.

At the end of Genesis Two we find:

But for Adam no suitable helper was found. 21 So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs and then closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

23 The man said,
“This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called ‘woman,’
for she was taken out of man.”
24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.
Genesis 2: 20-24 NIV

Here again the creation story is coupled with a moral command. God created Adam and Eve but He did not give Adam two wives and He did not give Eve two husbands. Adam and Eve started as one flesh and after marriage, man and wife once again become "one flesh." The creation of Adam and Eve go together with the command to uphold marriage and refrain from adultery.

The first creation story ends by justifying the command that everyone must be allowed to have a day of rest. The second creation story ends by upholding marriage as a lifelong commitment.

coffee4u · Sep 6, 2020

Dale said:
Obviously, God only created the world once but more than one creation story has come down to us. Just look at the opening to the second creation story in Genesis 2:4.

4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, when the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.
Genesis 2:4 NIV

This is definitely an introduction to a second story. It is at this point that the name of God changes from "Elohim" to "Jehovah-Elohim."

We have already gone over this before.
Genesis 1 outlines what God made each day.
Genesis 2 focus on the garden.

There are Two Creation Stories in Genesis

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