Theologies

Dorothy Mae · Aug 11, 2018

Another problem with the idea that God wants to be happy as a main goal or God wants to do good/right mainly because this makes us happy.

Jesus told us that when you do something good or right, you are NOT to think about how this makes you happy. We are NOT to savor how happy doing right/good
makes us feel. We are supposed to FORGET about what we just did and NOT think about it AT ALL. So the idea of thinking how happy doing good/right makes us feel is forbidden.

If we think about it, we see why. Focusing on on our own feelings taints the whole thing. It (again) makes our own happiness primary instead of a byproduct.

Dorothy Mae · Aug 11, 2018

dreadnought said:
The first two weren't supposed to be taken seriously.

Very deceptive.

Dorothy Mae · Aug 11, 2018

dreadnought said:
No, we want to repent of our sin.

If people WANTED to do that, they wouldn’t have sinned in the first place. Dread, you are also making up how people are despite the truth.

dreadnought · Aug 11, 2018

Dorothy Mae said:
Very deceptive.

The third one was (supposed to be taken seriously).

dreadnought · Aug 11, 2018

Dorothy Mae said:
If people WANTED to do that, they wouldn’t have sinned in the first place. Dread, you are also making up how people are despite the truth.

When we discover how destructive sin is, we want to repent.

fhansen · Aug 11, 2018

Dorothy Mae said:
Another problem with the idea that God wants to be happy as a main goal or God wants to do good/right mainly because this makes us happy.

Jesus told us that when you do something good or right, you are NOT to think about how this makes you happy. We are NOT to savor how happy doing right/good
makes us feel. We are supposed to FORGET about what we just did and NOT think about it AT ALL. So the idea of thinking how happy doing good/right makes us feel is forbidden.

If we think about it, we see why. Focusing on on our own feelings taints the whole thing. It (again) makes our own happiness primary instead of a byproduct.

Jesus said we weren't supposed to be proud about our doing good-didn't mention anything about being happy or not happy, as if emotion was bad or something anyway.

Foxfyre · Aug 11, 2018

Dorothy Mae said:
When Paul asked for his suffering to end, God said no. When Jesus asked to escape the suffering, God said no. It does not seem that suffering or not suffering is the point.
What if one accepts it in fear? Is it not valid? How does one know that one accepts it in love and not merely graditude? That is not the same thing.Does everyone in your church do this? Everyone without fail? Is so honoring the Lord an optional extra? What if we don't want to cause it is too expensive or troublesome? Ah, if a man does not repent of his sins, he cannot be saved. If a man does not ask for mercy in some way (doesn't have to be word for word) he will not be forgiven. It gets worse. IF a man refuses to forgive those who sin against him, he will NOT BE FORGIVEN and that means he is no longer saved. He might have been, but if unforgiveness creeps in, he is no longer forgiven. If forgiving others a "work?" No. Is it necessary to be forgiven? ABSOLUTELY.

Dorothy Mae I am sorry but it is a personal choice not to respond to chopped up posts like this. It too often destroys the context of the argument/concept being made and too often introduces on sequitur into the content and/or invites proof texting. Plus for me it is just plain boring to read and I generally don't bother.

My point however was my personal belief that we cannot dictate to another person how he/she must have a relationship with the risen Christ. The relationship I have informs me that God loves me/loves us, He neither ordains nor enjoys that we suffer, and there are no hard and fast rules for how we must honor or love Him.

In John 9: 6 After saying this, he (Jesus) spit on the ground, made some mud with the saliva, and put it on the man’s eyes. 7 “Go,” he told him, “wash in the Pool of Siloam”So the man went and washed, and came home seeing.[/indent]

In Mark 10:

51 And Jesus answered and said unto him, What wilt thou that I should do unto thee? The blind man said unto him, Lord, that I might receive my sight. 52 And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way.

Jesus used mud to heal one, and declared that faith was what healed the other. If we founded churches based on these differing accounts, and it was declared that there was only one way to do something, we would probably have the "Muddites" vs the "Anti-Muddites."

Likewise I don't think it is given to us to judge the heart or the relationship another has with God. I don't know if the once saved always saved doctrine preached by some traditions is okay, but my faith informs me that there is nothing I have done, said, expressed, felt, etc. that saved me. It was the love of God when I accepted Him. And there simply are no human rules that can make that happen.

Foxfyre · Aug 11, 2018

dreadnought said:
I think #3 is a pretty good summation.

It isn't a terrible summation for sure. But for me, it too strongly suggests that it is by keeping God's commandments that we are saved or salvation via works. What commandments are God's commandments? Jesus certainly did not keep all of "God's commandments" as dictated by the orthodox Jewish faith of His time and that is what attracted attention to Him and why the Pharisees and Sadducees rose up to destroy him.

And certainly keeping the Ten Commandments are a good thing to do and the Holy Spirit generally encourages that, but certainly the Ten Commandments do not cover all that is required of us as Christians. Jesus was clear that we are to be good to one another, cited many examples in his parables and teachings as to what constitutes being a good neighbor, a good worker, a person of faith none of which is covered in the Ten Commandments.

And even keeping the Ten Commandments is problematic. What is intended for Christians to keep the Sabbath? To the ancient Jews doing any work or even riding our horse on the Sabbath would be forbidden? What does it mean to honor one's father and mother. There are probably as many ideas of how to do that as there are people.

But when you accept Jesus the Christ as Lord and Savior, He sends the Counselor to lead us into all truth. And when we love God we hear that sense of instruction within us as to what is right and what is wrong. And I suspect that is different in many ways for many people.

Dorothy Mae · Aug 11, 2018

Foxfyre said:
Dorothy Mae I am sorry but it is a personal choice not to respond to chopped up posts like this. It too often destroys the context of the argument/concept being made and too often introduces on sequitur into the content and/or invites proof texting. Plus for me it is just plain boring to read and I generally don't bother.

My point however was my personal belief that we cannot dictate to another person how he/she must have a relationship with the risen Christ. The relationship I have informs me that God loves me/loves us, He neither ordains nor enjoys that we suffer, and there are no hard and fast rules for how we must honor or love Him.

In John 9: 6 After saying this, he (Jesus) spit on the ground, made some mud with the saliva, and put it on the man’s eyes. 7 “Go,” he told him, “wash in the Pool of Siloam”So the man went and washed, and came home seeing.[/indent]

In Mark 10:

51 And Jesus answered and said unto him, What wilt thou that I should do unto thee? The blind man said unto him, Lord, that I might receive my sight. 52 And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way.

Jesus used mud to heal one, and declared that faith was what healed the other. If we founded churches based on these differing accounts, and it was declared that there was only one way to do something, we would probably have the "Muddites" vs the "Anti-Muddites."

Likewise I don't think it is given to us to judge the heart or the relationship another has with God. I don't know if the once saved always saved doctrine preached by some traditions is okay, but my faith informs me that there is nothing I have done, said, expressed, felt, etc. that saved me. It was the love of God when I accepted Him. And there simply are no human rules that can make that happen.

Long rambling posts like yours are too boring to respond to. Learn to condense and not write novels.

Dorothy Mae · Aug 11, 2018

Foxfyre said:
It isn't a terrible summation for sure. But for me, it too strongly suggests that it is by keeping God's commandments that we are saved or salvation via works. What commandments are God's commandments? Jesus certainly did not keep all of "God's commandments" as dictated by the orthodox Jewish faith of His time and that is what attracted attention to Him and why the Pharisees and Sadducees rose up to destroy him.

And certainly keeping the Ten Commandments are a good thing to do and the Holy Spirit generally encourages that, but certainly the Ten Commandments do not cover all that is required of us as Christians. Jesus was clear that we are to be good to one another, cited many examples in his parables and teachings as to what constitutes being a good neighbor, a good worker, a person of faith none of which is covered in the Ten Commandments.

And even keeping the Ten Commandments is problematic. What is intended for Christians to keep the Sabbath? To the ancient Jews doing any work or even riding our horse on the Sabbath would be forbidden? What does it mean to honor one's father and mother. There are probably as many ideas of how to do that as there are people.

But when you accept Jesus the Christ as Lord and Savior, He sends the Counselor to lead us into all truth. And when we love God we hear that sense of instruction within us as to what is right and what is wrong. And I suspect that is different in many ways for many people.

What commandments are Gods commandments sounds just like the guy who asked just who is his neighbor. The question is asked to avoid doing any of them. Probably interfere with the pursuit of personal happiness.

hedrick · Aug 11, 2018

dreadnought said:
No, I think they are. How else can you interpret this?:

[17] "Yet your people say, `The way of the Lord is not just'; when it is their own way that is not just.
[18] When the righteous turns from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, he shall die for it.
[19] And when the wicked turns from his wickedness, and does what is lawful and right, he shall live by it.
[20] Yet you say, `The way of the Lord is not just.' O house of Israel, I will judge each of you according to his ways." Ezekiel 33:17-20 RSV

For a more explicit identification see Deut 30:15: "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, death and adversity." But it's not only symbolic. Ezek was speaking in a situation where Israelites had been literally killed, and he says it was in punishment for sin. So while it's true that life and death probably also include prosperity and adversity, they also had their literal meaning. Similarly "life" in the NT often means eternal life, and also life with God today.

Foxfyre · Aug 11, 2018

Dorothy Mae said:
Long rambling posts like yours are too boring to respond to. Learn to condense and not write novels.

Sorry you feel that way but I have no problem with those who find me boring. Do have a blessed day and God be with you.

Dorothy Mae · Aug 11, 2018

Foxfyre said:
Sorry you feel that way but I have no problem with those who find me boring. Do have a blessed day and God be with you.

In other words, you do not care about how you write although you insist others write in a manner that you like if you are going to answer. Two different standards. One for you and one for others.

I suppose this is a fruit of the life philosophy where the pursuit of personal happiness is most important, not how you treat others. How your writing is for others is of no concern since your own happiness is paramount and you like how you write. How they write that bothers you is to be addressed as your own happiness, not theirs, is paramount. Can you now see that your priority of personal happiness leads to selfishness?

fhansen · Aug 16, 2018

Desire for happiness isn’t a pursuit or a choice so much as it is an aspect of our natures, the way we’re geared. When we’re not full of anxiousness, when we’re content and at peace, when we’re “whole”, happiness is the natural result, coming of its own accord. But this world doesn’t afford perfection in this area or the continuous experience of this state of being; there’re simply too many obstacles, too much trouble, too much sin, too many things that go wrong, death being the final “problem”, overcome for us, however, by the resurrection.

The suffering and pains of this life, including interior pain such as pangs of guilt or anxiousness or sorrow and anger at being abused or victimized, constitute unhappiness and help compel us towards finding a “cure”, to navigate away from that which causes pain. We may look for it in all the wrong places to begin with but ultimately that cure is God even though complete happiness is found only in the next life when we’re finally fully united with Him.

Dorothy Mae · Aug 16, 2018

fhansen said:
Desire for happiness isn’t a pursuit or a choice so much as it is an aspect of our natures, the way we’re geared. When we’re not full of anxiousness, when we’re content and at peace, when we’re “whole”, happiness is the natural result, coming of its own accord. But this world doesn’t afford perfection in this area or the continuous experience of this state of being; there’re simply too many obstacles, too much trouble, too much sin, too many things that go wrong, death being the final “problem”, overcome for us, however, by the resurrection.
Reply
The suffering and pains of this life, including interior pain such as pangs of guilt or anxiousness or sorrow and anger at being abused or victimized, constitute unhappiness and help compel us towards finding a “cure”, to navigate away from that which causes pain. We may look for it in all the wrong places to begin with but ultimately that cure is God even though complete happiness is found only in the next life when we’re finally fully united with Him.

Cannot find a single sentence that is true from the point of view of the Kingdom of God. Desire for happiness is not our nature but something we make ourselves into being. Some desire truth or a knowledge of God, not personal happiness. I can imagine that those whose desire is mainly their own happiness have a hard time imaging that there are other kinds of people.

The "sufferings " listed are all selfish. No sufferings for others but merely the self not experiencing happiness. Well, there are other life goals that men and women have taken on for their lives. I know it is hard for those bent on their own happiness to understand but it is nevertheless true.

fhansen · Aug 16, 2018

Dorothy Mae said:
Cannot find a single sentence that is true from the point of view of the Kingdom of God. Desire for happiness is not our nature but something we make ourselves into being. Some desire truth or a knowledge of God, not personal happiness. I can imagine that those whose desire is mainly their own happiness have a hard time imaging that there are other kinds of people.

Well, you've certainly maintained that. And I've maintained that the the desire for happiness is about as innate as the desire for food and shelter when we need it-not selfish until it becomes gluttony but rather a built-in aspect of everyone's created nature.

Dorothy Mae said:
The "sufferings " listed are all selfish. No sufferings for others but merely the self not experiencing happiness. Well, there are other life goals that men and women have taken on for their lives. I know it is hard for those bent on their own happiness to understand but it is nevertheless true.

Why would it be any more selfish to suffer guilt pangs after doing wrong than to feel physical pain when breaking a leg? Or sorrow or anger for being abused or victimized? These are natural reactions. It sounds like you protest against...nothing much really. Anyway, I'd still submit that the desire for truth or a knowledge of God is the pursuit of happiness, for wholeness, for a cure to what ails man.

Dorothy Mae · Aug 17, 2018

fhansen said:
Well, you've certainly maintained that. And I've maintained that the the desire for happiness is about as innate as the desire for food and shelter when we need it-not selfish until it becomes gluttony but rather a built-in aspect of everyone's created nature.

Why would it be any more selfish to suffer guilt pangs after doing wrong than to feel physical pain when breaking a leg? Or sorrow or anger for being abused or victimized? These are natural reactions. It sounds like you protest against...nothing much really. Anyway, I'd still submit that the desire for truth or a knowledge of God is the pursuit of happiness, for wholeness, for a cure to what ails man.

The desire to pursue personal happiness is the opposite of the desire for truth and God. This is why NO ONE in the Bible who knew God pursued personal happiness and why God never told men to do so but rather pursue higher goals. The pursuit of personal happiness is selfishness. The Devil pursued and still does pursue personal happiness. God never.

fhansen · Aug 17, 2018

Dorothy Mae said:
The desire to pursue personal happiness is the opposite of the desire for truth and God. This is why NO ONE in the Bible who knew God pursued personal happiness and why God never told men to do so but rather pursue higher goals. The pursuit of personal happiness is selfishness. The Devil pursued and still does pursue personal happiness. God never.

I see. The motivating factor behind one's pursuit of God is so they can become more agitated? Feeling more lost, less like they've finally come home? Or are their motives supposed to be so pure that they don't even know what they are-as if they were already saints to begin with-just always doing the right thing?

Dorothy Mae · Aug 17, 2018

fhansen said:
Well, you've certainly maintained that. And I've maintained that the the desire for happiness is about as innate as the desire for food and shelter when we need it-not selfish until it becomes gluttony but rather a built-in aspect of everyone's created nature.

Its clear you maintain your view that the pursuit of personal happiness (selfishness) is normal. It isn’t true but it is your view.

Why would it be any more selfish to suffer guilt pangs after doing wrong than to feel physical pain when breaking a leg?

Those who pursue personal happiness as their life goal don’t notice the wrong they do in pursuing their own personal happiness. They tell themselves such pursuits are “natural” and thereby needn’t feel guilty.

It sounds like you protest against...nothing much really.

I protest against the monstrous selfish of the worldview that validates the pursuit of ones personal happiness at the expense of right and the happiness of others.

Anyway, I'd still submit that the desire for truth or a knowledge of God is the pursuit of happiness, for wholeness, for a cure to what ails man.

If the main goal is personal happiness aka selfishness, God will never supply any truth or reveal Himself to such a man. He will not submit to being used to please the self.

Dorothy Mae · Aug 17, 2018

fhansen said:
I see. The motivating factor behind one's pursuit of God is so they can become more agitated? Feeling more lost, less like they've finally come home? Or are their motives supposed to be so pure that they don't even know what they are-as if they were already saints to begin with-just always doing the right thing?

This is obviously a foreign concept for you. You’d have to drop pursuing your own happiness as a prime goal before you’d see it.

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