Theodicy

[MrsFoundit]

Suffering and evil exist, it is an important issue in Apologetics. Accepting that fact, I am creating a space with this thread where we can focus on the subject.

Here is a link to a general philosophy based article The Problem of Evil (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy) .

This link is to an explanation of the issue from a Christian perspective. What is theodicy? | GotQuestions.org

Some more Theodicy | theology.

Anyone have a comment based on the links, evil or suffering in life, or a Christian point of view I did not include? Post away...

 

[muichimotsu]

It almost feels ancillary or otherwise less important in terms of making a case for Christianity or theism in itself, rather than having it make sense to a Christian or theist who has issues with the coexistence of needless suffering and a supposedly benevolent and all powerful/all knowing sovereign deity. In short, it's more an issue if you already believe, rather than if you're skeptical about believing

For some, it could be an issue of sorts in believing in a deity at all, but deities can and are described in a way that can just be maltheism/dystheism rather than eutheism, the more common manifestation in general.

 

[com7fy8]

Your second link, if I understand correctly, claims that evil does not really exist, but it is simply the absence or limited presence of light.

But our Apostle Paul says there is >

"the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience." (in Ephesians 2:2)

I understand this means an actual spiritual being who exists plus actually "works" in people. This word for work is translated from the same Greek word used to speak of how God Himself "works" in us > Philippians 2:13.

And Satan is one who is spoken as having "wrath", and "desires" > >

Revelation 12:12 > this says Satan has wrath, and the Greek word for wrath, here, is the same as the word meaning God's wrath.

Plus, John 8:44 shows Satan has desires; and, yes, the Greek word for desire, here, is the same in Luke 22:15 where Jesus says He has desire!

I think this supports that the spirit of evil and Satan is really in existence.

God Himself is a personal and feeling Being. But Satan in his way does exist and is personal and has feelings and desires, though not how love has someone feeling and desiring. In sin we have been very conscious but in misery and ruin and not really loving. We were not only in some sort of absence!

And Hebrews 2:14-15 says "fear of death" had us in slavery to Satan. And there is "spirit of fear" > 2 Timothy 1:7; also please see Romans 8:15. Fear is not only a feeling, but there is an actual existent "spirit of fear".

But if people find God to be mainly distant and theoretical, then I would say they can suppose sin and Satan and his evil spirit are only nonexistent, and absences. But if God has proven Himself in us, by changing us away from Satan and his kingdom, we know He got us out of real trouble > turning us "from the power of Satan to God", as Jesus says, in Acts 26:18.

There is power involved in evil. Worry works very hard, with power. And lusts are dominating and dictatorial with personal and conscious experience. But God is almighty; His peace has almighty power to keep our "hearts and minds through Christ Jesus", we have in Philippians 4:4-7.

So, succeeding against evil is not only an intellectual and philosophical thing.

So, it is vain to try to disprove God's existence, by claiming He would get rid of evil if He really exists. God is succeeding against evil, and with Him we have His safety almighty >

"You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies" (in Psalm 23:5).

"And who is he who will harm you if you become followers of what is good?" (1 Peter 3:13)

So, this is not merely a theoretical issue. We need how God proves Himself in us >

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love." (1 John 4:18)

 

[muichimotsu]

Your second link, if I understand correctly, claims that evil does not really exist, but it is simply the absence or limited presence of light.

But our Apostle Paul says there is >

"the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience." (in Ephesians 2:2)

I understand this means an actual spiritual being who exists plus actually "works" in people. This word for work is translated from the same Greek word used to speak of how God Himself "works" in us > Philippians 2:13.

And Satan is one who is spoken as having "wrath", and "desires" > >

Revelation 12:12 > this says Satan has wrath, and the Greek word for wrath, here, is the same as the word meaning God's wrath.

Plus, John 8:44 shows Satan has desires; and, yes, the Greek word for desire, here, is the same in Luke 22:15 where Jesus says He has desire!

I think this supports that the spirit of evil and Satan is really in existence.

God Himself is a personal and feeling Being. But Satan in his way does exist and is personal and has feelings and desires, though not how love has someone feeling and desiring. In sin we have been very conscious but in misery and ruin and not really loving. We were not only in some sort of absence!

And Hebrews 2:14-15 says "fear of death" had us in slavery to Satan. And there is "spirit of fear" > 2 Timothy 1:7; also please see Romans 8:15. Fear is not only a feeling, but there is an actual existent "spirit of fear".

But if people find God to be mainly distant and theoretical, then I would say they can suppose sin and Satan and his evil spirit are only nonexistent, and absences. But if God has proven Himself in us, by changing us away from Satan and his kingdom, we know He got us out of real trouble > turning us "from the power of Satan to God", as Jesus says, in Acts 26:18.

There is power involved in evil. Worry works very hard, with power. And lusts are dominating and dictatorial with personal and conscious experience. But God is almighty; His peace has almighty power to keep our "hearts and minds through Christ Jesus", we have in Philippians 4:4-7.

So, succeeding against evil is not only an intellectual and philosophical thing.

So, it is vain to try to disprove God's existence, by claiming He would get rid of evil if He really exists. God is succeeding against evil, and with Him we have His safety almighty >

"You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies" (in Psalm 23:5).

"And who is he who will harm you if you become followers of what is good?" (1 Peter 3:13)

So, this is not merely a theoretical issue. We need how God proves Himself in us >

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love." (1 John 4:18)

Not sure someone objecting says that God should eliminate evil, but only needless suffering if it is indeed benevolent, unless you stretch the notion to mean God allows evil for whatever plan it has, in which case it's morally bankrupt, because it doesn't care about needless suffering, merely the completion of its plan, humans and their suffering a mere means to that end, violating Kant's 2nd categorical imperative in regards to human autonomy.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Suffering and evil exist, it is an important issue for in Apologetics. Accepting that fact, I am creating a space with this thread where we can focus on the subject.

Here is a link to a general philosophy based article The Problem of Evil (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy) .

This link is to an exploration of the issue from a Christian perspective. What is theodicy? | GotQuestions.org

Some more Christian thoughts here Pathways in Theodicy: An Introduction to the Problem of Evil on JSTOR .

Anyone have a comment based on the links, evil or suffering in life, or a Christian point of view I did not include? Post away...

I think you got everything covered as far as the basic topics/positions go (I've read and looked at the Stanford website article a number of times already before this thread was posted). This has been a topic, I've been very interested in for personal reasons, past history etc. I've especially been interested in the notion of a "soul building" theodicy, and have done lots of reading on that. That doesn't work as grand unifying theory but seems like an important concept concerning certain people's lives, and even some characters from the Bible. For me, I have had issues with things like failure and have found the work of William Lane Craig a help on that particular issue here. Failure | Reasonable Faith

 

[public hermit]

I've especially been interested in the notion of a "soul building" theodicy, and have done lots of reading on that.

You may be familiar, but Marilyn McCord Adams' Horrendous Evils and the Goodness of God is a good one for the notion of "soul building," as you put it. She is very much interested in, not only the general POE, but in how evil affects individual lives.

https://www.amazon.com/Horrendous-Goodness-Cornell-Philosophy-Religion/dp/0801486866

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Suffering and evil exist, it is an important issue for in Apologetics. Accepting that fact, I am creating a space with this thread where we can focus on the subject.

Here is a link to a general philosophy based article The Problem of Evil (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy) .

This link is to an exploration of the issue from a Christian perspective. What is theodicy? | GotQuestions.org

Some more Christian thoughts here Pathways in Theodicy: An Introduction to the Problem of Evil on JSTOR .

Anyone have a comment based on the links, evil or suffering in life, or a Christian point of view I did not include? Post away...

As a general guide for posting topics, non-Christians who are challenging Christianity should offer arguments as to why Christian beliefs are incorrect or untrue. Similarly, threads started by Christians should contain an argument why Christian beliefs are true and correct. All thread topics must contain an identifiable argument against or for the Christian faith. All participants should endeavor to support their arguments, and their rebuttals, with evidence.

 

[MrsFoundit]

It almost feels ancillary or otherwise less important in terms of making a case for Christianity or theism in itself, rather than having it make sense to a Christian or theist who has issues with the coexistence of needless suffering and a supposedly benevolent and all powerful/all knowing sovereign deity. In short, it's more an issue if you already believe, rather than if you're skeptical about believing

For some, it could be an issue of sorts in believing in a deity at all, but deities can and are described in a way that can just be maltheism/dystheism rather than eutheism, the more common manifestation in general.

It is a valid philosophical burden on theist people.

You are absolutely correct to say it is not a valid burden for atheists, agnostics, Deists, and polytheists who include malevolent deities, and some more. I could not be sure to list them all.

 

[MrsFoundit]

Your second link, if I understand correctly, claims that evil does not really exist, but it is simply the absence or limited presence of light.

This is the Statement of Faith page from that site - GotQuestions.org Statement of Faith | GotQuestions.org

"We believe in the existence and personality of Satan and demons. Satan is a fallen angel who led a group of angels in rebellion against God (Isaiah 14:12-17; Ezekiel 28:12-15). He is the great enemy of God and man, and the demons are his servants in evil. He and his demons will be eternally punished in the lake of fire (Matthew 25:41; Revelation 20:10)."

And the link in the OP itself -

""All by itself, this reasoning goes a long way toward forming a proper theodicy. If evil is not some “thing” God created or some force outside of God that He cannot control, then the meaning of these questions becomes very different. Any premise that requires God to have created, formed, or generated evil is immediately invalidated. All that is required, then, is for God to have “allowed” it."

The first point that must be realized is that God is consistent in His “allowance” of our free will and the natural function of His creation. As it turns out, it’s the fact that God is consistent in His moral behaviors that greatly aggravates the skeptic. This is because God’s consistency runs counter to our human preferences: we’d rather God bend or break the rules to suit our own selfish preferences.

For example, God is consistent in allowing human beings a broad use of free will."

If you wish to add a link please do, but mine is not, as far as I can see, an unusual or odd doctrine.

 

[MrsFoundit]

As a general guide for posting topics, non-Christians who are challenging Christianity should offer arguments as to why Christian beliefs are incorrect or untrue. Similarly, threads started by Christians should contain an argument why Christian beliefs are true and correct. All thread topics must contain an identifiable argument against or for the Christian faith. All participants should endeavor to support their arguments, and their rebuttals, with evidence.

Do feel free to report the thread if you want.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Do feel free to report the thread if you want.

So you only care about the rules when you are the one pointing it out. Good to know!

 

[hedrick]

Suffering and evil exist, it is an important issue in Apologetics. Accepting that fact, I am creating a space with this thread where we can focus on the subject.

Here is a link to a general philosophy based article The Problem of Evil (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy) .

This link is to an explanation of the issue from a Christian perspective. What is theodicy? | GotQuestions.org

Some more Christian thoughts here Pathways in Theodicy: An Introduction to the Problem of Evil on JSTOR .

Anyone have a comment based on the links, evil or suffering in life, or a Christian point of view I did not include? Post away...

I'm not interested in getting theology from GotQuestions, and JSTOR is private. But the Stanford link is a reasonable summary, except that they don't seriously consider restrictions on omnipotence. They just sort of breeze past it.

God can be super-powerful in general terms: able to control how the universe works, do the fine tuning that most people understand, but not able to get anything like intelligent life to develop while having everyone live a perfect life.

Most theodicies actually assume some kind of limitations. The free will defense assumes that you can't make beings that are free and also do what you want.

 

[MrsFoundit]

So you only care about the rules when you are the one pointing it out. Good to know!

Do feel free to report the thread if you want. It is in line with the rules far as I can see.

 

[muichimotsu]

It is a valid philosophical burden on theist people.

You are absolutely correct to say it is not a valid burden for atheists, agnostics, Deists, and polytheists who include malevolent deities, and some more. I could not be sure to list them all.

There are plenty, many of which I barely recall looking into just out of curiosity through Wikipedia, Ietsism, transtheism, etc.

 

[muichimotsu]

I'm not interested in getting theology from GotQuestions, and JSTOR is private. But the Stanford link is a reasonable summary, except that they don't seriously consider restrictions on omnipotence. They just sort of breeze past it.

God can be super-powerful in general terms: able to control how the universe works, do the fine tuning that most people understand, but not able to get anything like intelligent life to develop while having everyone live a perfect life.

Most theodicies actually assume some kind of limitations. The free will defense assumes that you can't make beings that are free and also do what you want.

If they assume limitations, the problem becomes how they can contest the entity is worth worshipping or even being called a god rather than a creator in an immanent sense or such.

Similar to the avoidance of the Euthypro dilemma by conflating God with goodness, logical constraints can be hand-waved by a theological conflation of God with the laws of logic, though I'm not certain how often apologists will use maximally powerful versus omnipotence, which is still more the common parlance in describing God's capacity, ignoring or otherwise deflecting from criticism of the latter term in creating contradictions that have been around in some form for a millennium or more.

 

[MrsFoundit]

and JSTOR is private. .

Fair comment, so I have changed it to a general source that I hope everyone can see for free.