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Theistic Evolutionists: Which parts are literal?

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pudmuddle

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Ok, when you read the OT, which storys do you take as literal, and which do you interpret to be allegorys? We're talking about the entire OT, now, not just the first book.

I'll list a few of the more disputed ones, you can take it from there.
1. Cain and Abel? Did it happen?

2. The flood. Yes? No?

3. The tower of Babel?

4. Walls of Jericho?

5. all the rest...
 
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Think about Cain for a moment, when he was cast out, he was worried about being killed, who was going to kill Cain? Where did all these other people come from, when Cain killed Able, did that not leave Adam and Eve and Cain? Gen 4:14-16 "I will be a homeless wanderer on the earth; whoever finds me will kill me.” But the Lord said to him, “All right then, if anyone kills Cain, Cain will be avenged seven times as much.” Then the Lord put a special mark on Cain so that no one who found him would strike him down. So Cain went out from the presence of the Lord and lived in the land of Nod, east of Eden."

Who did Cain marry? Was the sister older or younger than Cain?
Gen 4:17-18 "Cain had marital relations with his wife, and she became pregnant43 and gave birth to Enoch. Cain was building a city, and he named the city after his son Enoch. To Enoch was born Irad, and Irad was the father of Mehujael. Mehujael was the father of Methushael, and Methushael was the father of Lamech." Not only did Cain find a wife and have children, he was building a city!!! Where did the people come from to live in Cain's City, Enoch?
Gen 4:25-26 "And Adam had marital relations with his wife again, and she gave birth to a son. She named him Seth, saying, “God has given me another child in place of Abel, because Cain killed him.” And a son was also born to Seth, whom he named Enosh. At that time people began to worship the Lord." In these verses we read that Eve named the son Seth because he was in place of Able. Yet we also read at the time people began to worship the Lord. Now where is all these people coming from? Did Seth marry another sister of Cain and Able's? Or did his wife come from the city Enoch? I think it is pretty clear that we are not dealing with a historical account, but with the mythic origens of the Hebrew people. The other people were folks other than the Hebrews.
The story of Noah's Ark, although based on a historical happening is not history, like we know it, but more myth like and a religious tale told for a purpose. If one reads the story of Noah's flood carefully, there are two different stories about the event intertwined in Genesis.
Here is Genesis 7 and 8 in the American Standard Version of 1901, The bold print is the Yahwehist account and the regular print is the Priestly account. There are other stories of the flood see the Gilgsmesh Epic.
1 And Jehovah said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.
2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee seven and seven, the male and his female; and of the beasts that are not clean two, the male and his female:
3 of the birds also of the heavens, seven and seven, male and female, to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.
4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living thing that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the ground.
5 And Noah did according unto all that Jehovah commanded him.
6 And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.
7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.
8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of birds, and of everything that creepeth upon the ground,
9 there went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, male and female, as God commanded Noah.
10 And it came to pass after the seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;
14 they, and every beast after its kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after its kind, and every bird after its kind, every bird of every sort.
15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh wherein is the breath of life.
16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God commanded him: and Jehovah shut him in.
17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lifted up above the earth.18 And the waters prevailed, and increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high mountains that were under the whole heaven were covered.
20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both birds, and cattle, and beasts, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22 all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, of all that was on the dry land, died.
23 And every living thing was destroyed that was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and creeping things, and birds of the heavens; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only was left, and they that were with him in the ark.
24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth a hundred and fifty days.


1 And God remembered Noah, and all the beasts, and all the cattle that were with him in the ark: and God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters assuaged;
2 the fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained;
3 and the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of a hundred and fifty days the waters decreased.
4 And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat.
5 And the waters decreased continually until the tenth month: in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, were the tops of the mountains seen.
6 And it came to pass at the end of forty days, that Noah opened the window of the ark which he had made:
7 and he sent forth a raven, and it went forth to and fro, until the waters were dried up from off the earth.
8 And he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground;
9 but the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him to the ark; for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: and he put forth his hand, and took her, and brought her in unto him into the ark.
10 And he stayed yet other seven days; and again he sent forth the dove out of the ark;
11 and the dove came in to him at eventide; and, lo, in her mouth an olive-leaf plucked off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth.
12 And he stayed yet other seven days, and sent forth the dove; and she returned not again unto him any more.
13 And it came to pass in the six hundred and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth: and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dried.14 And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dry.
15 And God spake unto Noah, saying,
16 Go forth from the ark, thou, and thy wife, and thy sons, and thy sons' wives with thee.
17 Bring forth with thee every living thing that is with thee of all flesh, both birds, and cattle, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth; that they may breed abundantly in the earth, and be fruitful, and multiply upon the earth.
18 And Noah went forth, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him:
19 every beast, every creeping thing, and every bird, whatsoever moveth upon the earth, after their families, went forth out of the ark.
20 And Noah builded an altar unto Jehovah, and took of every clean beast, and of every clean bird, and offered burnt-offerings on the altar.
21 And Jehovah smelled the sweet savor; and Jehovah said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake, for that the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more everything living, as I have done.
22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.


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Of interest is that there are 7 pairs of clean animals taken onto the ark by the Yahwahist story and only a pair of all animals in the priestly version.
Which is the true story of Noah's flood?
Jeff the Finn
 
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Lotar

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pudmuddle said:
Ok, when you read the OT, which storys do you take as literal, and which do you interpret to be allegorys? We're talking about the entire OT, now, not just the first book.

I'll list a few of the more disputed ones, you can take it from there.
1. Cain and Abel? Did it happen?

2. The flood. Yes? No?

3. The tower of Babel?

4. Walls of Jericho?

5. all the rest...

After Babel
 
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Vance

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Well, sometimes we can't know whether they are literal or not upon a simple reading. This is because for God's purpose it may not be important whether they are literal or not. The message is the message.

In any case, your list:

1. Cain and Abel? Did it happen?

Yes. But it a plain reading of the text would indicate that there were other humans around. This means that, no matter what, we are not being told the whole story (And there is no reason God *has* to tell us the whole story since what He tells us is sufficient for the support of His message of redemption).

We either have to read in a bunch of stuff about exponential growth of generations from Adam and Eve's other children and read in time gaps in order allow for their to be others out there (and create a very strained reading, much more so than a regional flood reading); OR we have to read into the Scripture that there were other humans which were not descendents of Adam and Eve (thus making them the spiritual rather than physical founders of mankind). Either way, we have to read in a lot extra and I am not sure which is true.

2. The flood. Yes? No?

Yes, the flood happened, but it very well could have been regional. The text supports either possibility. So a regional flood could still be based on a literal reading.

3. The tower of Babel?

Yes, it happened, but I am not sure how whether it was a regional event or truly the origin of all langauges world-wide. Just not sure that it really matters.

4. Walls of Jericho?

Sure, no reason not to believe it.

I fully believe in the miraculous. God sets up the laws up nature, but reserves the ability to over-ride them when and where He chooses.
 
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