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Quite true, although there are well-positioned people within the Catholic church who would like to change that, e.g. Michael GuinanPapist, I pointed out in post #14 that the Catholic Church teaches that Adam and Eve were historical persons
Yes, it's quite possible to believe in a historical Adam and Eve and still accept the scientific conclusion that humans have always had a fairly large population.
(If they mutated randomly, but not "toward" human, it seems the chance of becoming one human species would be dismally small.
Quite true, although there are well-positioned people within the Catholic church who would like to change that, e.g. Michael Guinan
So am I, but I suspect we mean very different things by the statement.well I am glad that the Church preserves the orthodox faith handed down from the time of the Apostles and does not get lost in the vain innovations of man-made doctrines
1) Humans did not evolve from chimps.How would that work according your mutation hypothesis?
One million chimps mutated toward human, how many would eventually make it? For those who made it, were they the same kind of human to start with?
(If they mutated randomly, but not "toward" human, it seems the chance of becoming one human species would be dismally small. If so, what do you mean by "fairly large population"?)
I recognize Theistic Evolution as an acceptable position to be held
but after meeting several really holy Catholics who are believers in Creationism, I am now more favorable to that position ....
so now basically I say I do not care
I know God made everything
if it was made in 7 days, or 4 billion years, does not really make any difference to me
1) Humans did not evolve from chimps.
2) By "fairly large population" I mean at least a few thousand.
3) No members of a population "make it". They die, as all organisms do. Later generations of the entire population are different from earlier generations.
4) Interbreeding animals, like humans, remain one species because they continually exchange genes.
And, God certainly didn't have a plan for creating mankind other than a roll of the dice.
Originally Posted by sfs
Yes, it's quite possible to believe in a historical Adam and Eve and still accept the scientific conclusion that humans have always had a fairly large population.
How would that work according your mutation hypothesis?
One million chimps mutated toward human, how many would eventually make it? For those who made it, were they the same kind of human to start with?
(If they mutated randomly, but not "toward" human, it seems the chance of becoming one human species would be dismally small. If so, what do you mean by "fairly large population"?)
That is an over over simplified analogy.
Juvi wrote:
Good question, since it is not easy for most people to imagine. The key is to think over many generations, remembering that mutations are spread due to reproduction and natural selection, and also remembering that one's number of descendants increases geometrically, which means that before too long, the entire population is descended from any given previous individual. This is explained step by step below.
Only one need "make it" (and it's not one step for the mutations anyway). That one will have kids, after all. If their many little mutational changes are beneficial, they will, on average, be selected for and soon be present in everyone in the whole population.
My example will use a million in the population. In general, "fairly large" means, here, at least in the thousands.
Here is a step by step example:
Consider the hominid population that is evolving to be more and more human. It consists of all non-humans, each represented by an asterisk, below, with around a million individuals in the population:
Gen 1 ****************************************** (+ a million more or so)
Call that Generation 1 (Gen1)
Now, in Gen 2, A hominid is born whom God gives a soul. The mutational changes for bigger brains are happening too, and I don't know exactly what the brain size was when God created the first human soul. This person is the first human, Adam. Along with his human wife, Eve, generation 2 looks like this, with humans marked in blue :
Gen 2 ******************************************* (+ a million more or so)
Now, Adam and Eve have many kids, and each of them is human, has inherited original sin, and is marked in blue. Polygenism is avoided because only Adam and Eve are human, thus we are descended from a single pair of humans, but not a single pair of ancestors.
Gen 3 ***************************************** (+ a million more or so)
Of course, a child of whom one parent has original sin will also inherit original sin, and be human, so, like the descendants of Jacob, the descendants of Adam and Eve increase with each generation, EVEN IF THE WHOLE POPULATION ISN'T INCREASING:
Gen 4 *************************************** (+ a million more or so)
So even after just a few generations, most of the nearby hominids are descendants of Adam, and are human, and over time this will spread to the whole population.
Gen 7 ******************************************************* (+ a million more or so)
So fast forwarding just a few thousand years, the whole population is human.
Gen 83 **********************************(+ a million more or so)
Notice that at no time was the whole breeding population limited to just two individuals.
This is why the Catholic Dr. Ayayla could say:
We know that our ancestors were never at any time just two individuals. Modern genetic analysis allows us to conclude that through millions of years of our history, there have been always at any time at the very least several thousand individuals. So we don't descend from a single pair. (Dr. Francisco Ayala)
See? We don't descend from only a single pair of ancestors, as the good Dr. is pointing out. At the same time, we can be descended from a single pair of humans (Adam and Eve), as shown above.
Regardless of whether or not you think this is what happened, do you agree that this solves any problems of "two individuals" and the large populations shown by science?
In Christ -
Papias
How would that work according your mutation hypothesis?
One million chimps mutated toward human, how many would eventually make it? For those who made it, were they the same kind of human to start with?
(If they mutated randomly, but not "toward" human, it seems the chance of becoming one human species would be dismally small. If so, what do you mean by "fairly large population"?)
I don't think it's feasible to maintain that a literal Adam and Eve existed.
As to Genesis, they clearly are described as individuals in Gen 2+. I would take that story to be a traditional one included in the Bible because it showed the Hebrew's understanding of their relationship to God, but not because it was history or biology. But I don't support reading it as some kind of symbol for a group. That's misconstruing it as history.
As to Paul, he was speaking of the implications of Genesis. Plenty of mainline writers and preachers quote the creation story and talk about its implications. They almost always discuss it in its own terms. That is, they treat Adam as an individual, because that's clearly what the story says. When doing exegesis of non-literal parts of the Bible, you don't constantly say "you know this is non-literal." That is understood.
Did Paul actually understand that Genesis was not literal history? I don't see any way to be sure.
Juvi wrote:
Good question, since it is not easy for most people to imagine. The key is to think over many generations, remembering that mutations are spread due to reproduction and natural selection, and also remembering that one's number of descendants increases geometrically, which means that before too long, the entire population is descended from any given previous individual. This is explained step by step below.
Only one need "make it" (and it's not one step for the mutations anyway). That one will have kids, after all. If their many little mutational changes are beneficial, they will, on average, be selected for and soon be present in everyone in the whole population.
No. Each new mutation that contributed to making us human started in one individual, but that individual was always part of a larger population.So, all human population began with ONE, not a big number.
No. Each new mutation that contributed to making us human started in one individual, but that individual was always part of a larger population.
?? Where did Paul say he had an opinion on Genesis?? Not true.That's where I stand as well. What St. Paul says theologically is much more important than what his personal opinions about the historicity of the early chapters of Genesis,
If it were true, we could talk, but you made it up.and to that extent would make Paul's personal opinion on the subject rather moot.
?? Where did Paul say he had an opinion on Genesis?? Not true.
If it were true, we could talk, but you made it up.
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