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miamited

Ted
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Hi JBMM,

I'm an 'if not'. I support the app. 6,000 year old creation by God's inclusion of the geneologies of Adam's line to Abraham. Most all those who have seriously studied the Scriptures find extrabiblical evidence to support the time of the Exodus. God, in His infinite wisdom knew that we would be able to always support the app. date of the Exodus and so only had need to show His 'proof' of time from the beginning to the Exodus. Therefore, He included the previously mentioned geneologies.

Secondly, while so many get caught up in the argument that we can't know what a 'day' was in the time that the Genesis account records for us, I also find that God has answered that argument. He repeats twice in the Exodus account, and we know that by that time of our history that everyone knew what a day was, that He created the world in six days and then rested and it is what He sets as the example of the Sabbath. Six literal evening and morning days and then a literal evening and morning Sabbath. So, for me, I don't even argue the issue of what a day was considered in the Genesis account.

Thirdly, God closes out the description of each day of the creation as being an evening and then a morning. Just exactly what we think of as a day, today. However, that is not really what a 'day' is. We would still have 'days' even if there were no sun and moon, because the event that literally defines a 'day' upon the earth is one rotation of the earth. Whether or not the sun stands in the sky or the moon rises at night, a day is defined as app. 24 hours and that 24 hour period is marked by the planet earth making one full rotation around its axis. The sun may fall away into space and travel clear across to the other side of our galaxy or even beyond and our earth will continue to spin on its axis marking 'days'.

We have become accustomed to a 'day' being defined as the rising and setting of the sun and moon on the horizon of our earth, but in actuality they have nothing to do with the proper and excact definition of a 'day'. Just as we improperly refer to the sun coming up as its rising, in actuality the sun doesn't move from it's position in the center of our solar system. It is the earth which spins and as it spins the sun is revealed to different 'sides' of the earth and it appears as a 'rising' to us. Similarly, over thousands of years man has become accustomed to a day being seen as the 'rising' of the sun to make it daylight outside and then the 'setting' of the sun which brings on darkness which we call night, but the true event that creates the 'day' for us is really neither of these events, but rather the turning of the earth upon its axis. One full rotation makes a day and the moment that God spoke the earth into existence, so long as it was spinning when it was created, there would have been a day followed by a day and followed by another day, etc.

When the Sun was created then we would have had daylight to govern the time we think of as day followed by nightime as the earth continued to spin and half of the earth was plunged into darkness. This is exactly what God tells us was His purpose in creating the greater and the lesser light. Keep in mind that this 'theory' that a day is made up of a period of sunlight and moonlight is not able to be considered, because in reality there is always sunlight still somewhere on the earth. So, for a 'day' to be defned as a period of light and then darkness one must stand in a particular spot to see this, but for the earth to rotate a full turn has nothing to do with where one stands upon the earth.

God is wise. Did you ever wonder why the Scriptures say that our sin is as far as the east is from the west and not the north is from the south? You can start anywhere on the earth and walk north but you will eventually crest the pole of the axis and begin walking south. However, you can walk east from any point on the earth and you will always and forever be walking east. You will never be walking west unless you change your direction.

Fourth, I rest my support on the Scriptural claim that God is the God of the impossible and so when scientists and evolutionists make claims that this understanding of mine is 'impossible', then I'm fairly assured, "Well, then I know God could well have done it!" God is the God who can create miracles and only the 6,000 year creation account holds up to the 'miracle' test. All the others have a logical and reasonable explanation for what they hold as truth.

Finally, I have discussed with many who are called Christians and those who do not claim that name who try to assure me that the god of theistic evolution is the same God of the 6,000 year creation and I'm very sorry, but that just isn't true. The god of theistic evolution, while certainly a very powerful and wise god, does not display the same power, omniscience, wisdom, and glory as the God who created everything perfect in the beginning. The theistic god started perhaps the universe which through natural and logical selective processes became what it is today. He then started the earth and to be completely honest I have quite a bit of trouble understanding where He stepped in and began working with the plants and animals of the earth and what all of 'created as its kind' really means if God actually just started some amoebe like living organism that through natural and logical processes made its way to become a bear or dog or elephant or whatever.

The God of the 6,000 year creation created in practically mere moments the perfection of the universe and the perfection of the earth and all that is in it and on it and curiously when we read and understand the God of the 6,000 year creation we see that He actually created the earth as the first physical piece that we now call the universe and then surrounded it with the remaining universe. This, of course, is the earth 'centric' understanding of the creation which I believe is correct. Not that the earth is the physical 'center' of the universe, but that the creation of this realm began with the earth and was all about making the earth a place where flesh could live and worship and love God. God is love and His entire purpose for creating this realm was to create a creature that He could love and would return that love to Him. The entire realm of this creation was for God's pleasure and God's desires. He is the God who can speak all of this into near immediate existence and I firmly believe and am convicted that the Genesis account, while not readily accepted by the scientific community due to the very fact that he first 'law' of science is that there are no miracles, is the true account of how He did it.

One thing that both scientists and lay people need to comprehend is that 'miracles' cannot be explained. Period!! If it can be reasonably and logically explained, then it is not a miracle. Of course, that doesn't stop us from trying and we use the physical properties of the creation to try and explain how we got here, but it can't be explained. If it can be explained then it is not a miracle.


God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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JCTats

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I believe God created the world pretty much as it is now, although there's no doubt the world has changed a fair bit since then. I'm open to the idea that God created a world and organisms within it that have the ability to adapt and evolve from His original creations. I think to believe God is not capable of such intelligent design is an insult to Him. God created the universe filled with planets, stars, black holes, nebula and life, I'm sure a few carefully planned and well timed genetic mutations aren't a big deal for Him.
 
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JCTats

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I don't believe in us coming from primates. I do think that (animal) species change depending on their environments. As for theistic evolution, as in God, Himself, changing? I don't know. I wouldn't think so

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever
 
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holyrokker

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Bible verses to "back up" claims about "theistic evolution", or any other topic is a fruitless endeavor.

Anyone can "back up" a claim with Bible verses. Waht's more important is what is taught in the Bible, and what conclusions can we correctly arrive at from the Bible.

"Theistic evolution" is basically the opinion that God created the "laws" of nature by which all things are governed.

I don't see how that is contrary to what the Bible teaches.
 
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Handmaid for Jesus

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I believe God created everything with the ability to adapt and to change. It just makes sense. We learn and we build upon that learning and adjust our lives accordingly. God is our constant, He never changes.

Malichi 3:6For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

He is our Anchor, our Rock. I don't believe Adam was an ape, if that is what you are asking.
 
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Biker Angel

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Theistic evolution
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:

"Theistic evolution or evolutionary creation is a concept that asserts that classical religious teachings about God are compatible with the modern scientific understanding about biological evolution. In short, theistic evolutionists believe that there is a God, that God is the creator of the material universe and (by consequence) all life within, and that biological evolution is simply a natural process within that creation. Evolution, according to this view, is simply a tool that God employed to develop human life.
Theistic evolution is not a scientific theory, but a particular view about how the science of evolution relates to religious belief and interpretation. Theistic evolution supporters can be seen as one of the groups who reject the conflict thesis regarding the relationship between religion and science – that is, they hold that religious teachings about creation and scientific theories of evolution need not contradict. Proponents of this view are sometimes described as Christian Darwinists."


Maybe it took from the big bang until 14000 years ago for God to put the final touches on His master piece the universe. Then he spent 6000 years actually doing the final touches (as recorded in Genesis) and then rested for a thousand years and here we are now trying to figure it all out. I hope some day we learn the truth about all this.
 
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Nurbz

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I don't think God would create all this evidence of a very ancient earth, such as measurable sedimentary levels, fossils of various stages of earth spread across those sedimentary layers and plate movements as "tests of faith". If all animals in the fossil records existed in the same 6,000 years, they would ALL befound in the same sediment layers with old human bones, which are also seperated by layers of earth depending on age.

I also believe the story in Genesis was written by a human being who at the time didn't realize his story had a plothole that left all of humanity the product of generations of inbreeding (and probably gave ancient Jewish people an excuse to treat women as property).

The universe can be "reversed" through mathmatics to a point in time where all matter and galaxies compress down to a single point... where everything sprang from nothing, so I don't see at this point why a supernatural or higher dimensional being such as God couldn't have done something like that.
 
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JCTats

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You make some good points. However God did it and why is something we probably wont understand until we meet Him.

Isiah 55:8-9 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the Lord. "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts higher than your thoughts.
 
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miamited

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Hi Nurbz,

You responded: I also believe the story in Genesis was written by a human being who at the time didn't realize his story had a plothole that left all of humanity the product of generations of inbreeding (and probably gave ancient Jewish people an excuse to treat women as property).

That would be your foundational error. However, you will find that you are in a multitude of company.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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dies-l

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I believe in Theistic evolution, and I believe that TE is consistent with Scripture. This, not in the sense that I can point to a handful of verses that say that evolution is fact any more than I can point to verses that show that Newtonian physics is true. But, I see nothing in Scripture that can reasonably be interpreted as contradicting the Theory of Evolution. What I see is a series of narratives at the beginning of Genesis that, if interpreted as literal history are so filled with contradictions that a literal translation would necessarily draw the authority of Scripture into doubt. Because I believe that Scripture is authoritative and does not contradict itself, I cannot accept an interpretative methodology that leads to internal inconsistency.
 
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John S

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I believe in the 'Theory of Evolution' but that an "Artist" has painted the picture - and continues to do so to this very day - and will continue to do so until the day that this universe no longer exists.
A "Day"(Era) for God can take many millions of years.

In my opinion, to believe that the world is ONLY 6000 years old, is scientifically inaccurate.
What is 6000 years old is the history of THIS civilization on this planet. Historians have a pretty accurate assessment that the first civilizations arose in Ur about 4000 B.C.
Assuming that the story of Noah's Ark is accurate, and I have no reason not to believe it's authenticity, there would have had to have been an older, advanced civilization before that. There is NO way that God would wipe out an entire planet based on the sins of a few sheep and goat herders. (Atlantis?)
 
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miamited

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Hi all,

Listen friends, that fact that people don't understand the Scriptures does not have any bearing on the veracity thereof. Peter wrote to us about just such things as this. Here, speaking of those who misunderstood and distorted Paul's letters he writes to us:

His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Hopefully we can all grasp what this is saying. Dies, let me ask you. Can you understand and explain how God flooded the whole earth? Can you understand and explain how God parted a sea and allowed thousands upon thousands of people to pass on dry ground and then in nearly a moment in time allowed the deep water to return to drown an entire Egyptian army? Can you understand and explain how God caused a plague of flies to swarm all over the land of Egypt and yet not a single one was found in the part of the city known as Goshen. Can you understand and explain how God was able to kill only the firstborn of both man and cattle in all the land of Egypt and yet not a one was harmed in any home that had painted blood on the doorposts? Can you understand and explain how God caused the sun to stand still in the sky for nearly a full day? Can you understand and explain how a woman 2000 years ago in Judea who had never had sexual relations with a man came to be pregnant.

Friend, I don't know how wise you are, but I am positive that you cannot either explain a single one of these events, nor can any of them be made to logically fit within the confines of science. Yet, God's word says He did these things. Do you believe that He did and can you please send me your explanation of how He did them.

Why is it that so few 'christians' understand even something as simple as a miracle?

God has made it very plain to anyone who would care to just read the account that He created this realm in six days. He repeated it twice for us in the books of the law. He listed for us the geneologies. As I have explained many times, the 'facts' that evolutionists look at to claim that the earth must be old are exactly the same 'facts' that would have had any scientist claiming that it was impossible for Adam to be one day old, the day after he was created. Can you grasp that? Can you sit for a moment and just wrap your thoughts around Adam. A full grown and fully formed man with body hair, full set of teeth, 28 inch arm length, fully formed brain with all the knowledge of a grown man, full size heart, lungs, kidneys, etc. Yet, there was a day that he was only one day old and any scientist would have laughed at both you and him if you were to try and tell them that on that day. Can you possibly comprehend that?

When Adam was formed he was a full size man. Eve also. But every man or woman living since has begun this life as a baby. But Adam did not because he had to be made fully formed. Similarly the earth had to be made fully formed. It could not have sustained the life that God had created the earth to sustain if it had not been made fully formed. The universe was made fully formed. It had to be. It could not have sustained the earth in its courses and life upon this earth, if it had not been instantaeously fully formed.

God is God!!! He began on day one with the full and purposeful realization of creating a realm of existence in which flesh could live. He began by forming the earth and in a matter of mere hours He spoke and a perfect earth was suddenly spinning in space. He then spoke, in just a few more hours, all the water and clouds upon the earth. He then spoke in just a few more hours, and vegetation came up all over the dry land that he had caused to appear. He then spoke and the universe was filled with stars and the sun and the moon were created to provide the proper temperature and atmosphere for the soon coming magnum opus of this realm of creation. Then in just a few more short hours He spoke and all the land and the sea was filled with living animals, but there was still the greatest piece of this realm of creation to come. After all was ready, after 5 days of steady work to see that everything was good and perfect for His final creation, God, the God of love, stooped down and with His very hands formed Adam and Eve and blew into them His breath of life and He loved them and He nurtured them. It was a miracle, my friend. It was a miracle made by a loving, omniscient, all-powerful, merciful God that you and I and the thousands of generations that have preceeded us and the possibly thousands that may yet come, might have a place to live and to love and to know Him.

It was a miracle my friend. God did it!! It was for His good pleasure and through His power and wisdom that He created a place for man to live and that's what every star hanging in the universe was made for. It's what everything on the earth and under the earth was made for. This entire universe from edge to edge of the furthest galaxies was put in place by a God who loves you so that you might have life.

Oh, my friend, what an awesome God we have. He is a God who can step into our realm of existence and by the command of His voice cause a sea that may well be hundreds of feet deep, just to part right down the middle and show dry land with a wall of water on either side. He can just command that flies swarm over an entire nation and yet, withhold them from a small suburb of that nation. He is a God who can say, 'Sun stand still!' and it will stand still. He is a God who can gently and lovingly speak that a young woman's womb should be filled with the flutter of life without aid of any earthly man and it shall be so. That, my friend, is what miracles are all about. In His revelation to us He even warns us not to be swayed by the wisdom of men, those who have no understanding of who He is and the power that He has and the things that He can do that are beyond our most complex understanding or explanation.

That, is the God I serve. Love you Father.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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