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Theistic Evolution vs. the Real Presence

SQLservant

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I know that title sounds very silly, but I'd still like an answer for this. Consider Genesis 1 and the Institution narratives, particularly the words "this is My Body" and "this is My Blood." One, I take literally, one, I do not. However, my reasons for taking one at face value appear to be inconsistent with my reasons for reinterpreting the other (Tradition, empirical evidence). Is this inconsistent? Does taking "this is My Body" literally while taking Genesis 1 figuratively fail the coherence test?

How are the two texts different?
 

miamited

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I know that title sounds very silly, but I'd still like an answer for this. Consider Genesis 1 and the Institution narratives, particularly the words "this is My Body" and "this is My Blood." One, I take literally, one, I do not. However, my reasons for taking one at face value appear to be inconsistent with my reasons for reinterpreting the other (Tradition, empirical evidence). Is this inconsistent? Does taking "this is My Body" literally while taking Genesis 1 figuratively fail the coherence test?

How are the two texts different?

Hi,

I have found that understanding the things of God comes from the Holy Spirit and not from men. Therefore, my encouragement would be that you lay this question before the one who you know, knows the truth rather than depend on a bunch of folks that may or may not.

If you were to take the understanding of a man as the starting point, then I would encourage you to start with this: "And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it."

God bless you.
IN Christ, Ted
 
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Keachian

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I know that title sounds very silly, but I'd still like an answer for this. Consider Genesis 1 and the Institution narratives, particularly the words "this is My Body" and "this is My Blood." One, I take literally, one, I do not. However, my reasons for taking one at face value appear to be inconsistent with my reasons for reinterpreting the other (Tradition, empirical evidence). Is this inconsistent? Does taking "this is My Body" literally while taking Genesis 1 figuratively fail the coherence test?

How are the two texts different?

Both are rich in symbolism which we are somewhat removed from, however it is much easier for us to understand some of the sacrificial theology behind "This is my body" than the temple and cosmological theology behind Genesis 1. Consistency should always come in the form of understanding the text in its original context not about whether you take it literally or figuratively, in this case I believe that taking Genesis 1 figuratively and the "this is my body" is literal.
 
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SQLservant

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Both are rich in symbolism which we are somewhat removed from, however it is much easier for us to understand some of the sacrificial theology behind "This is my body" than the temple and cosmological theology behind Genesis 1. Consistency should always come in the form of understanding the text in its original context not about whether you take it literally or figuratively, in this case I believe that taking Genesis 1 figuratively and the "this is my body" is literal.

And that is what I have come to as well. But I notice an awful lot is said about "you have to understand the context" from everyone on everything, and it so often takes the form of special pleading. Would you care to go into detail on how the context or intended meaning differs?
 
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Papias

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SQL worte:

Does taking "this is My Body" literally while taking Genesis 1 figuratively fail the coherence test?

But don't you already take them both figuratively?

Protestants generally see communion figuratively, not literally. The words are "this is my body", yet the bread is seen as bread, not as literal, actual, bleeding human flesh. So seeing Genesis and communion both figuratively doesn't fail the coherency test, right?

Papias
 
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SQLservant

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SQL worte:



But don't you already take them both figuratively?

Protestants generally see communion figuratively, not literally. The words are "this is my body", yet the bread is seen as bread, not as literal, actual, bleeding human flesh. So seeing Genesis and communion both figuratively doesn't fail the coherency test, right?

Papias

Then I must not be a general Protestant, because I believe in the Real Presence as much as I believe in my own presence at my desk while typing this. I would confess that elephants were pink before I would confess that Christ was not present in the Eucharist.
 
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Papias

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SQL wrote:

I believe in the Real Presence as much as I believe in my own presence at my desk while typing this. I would confess that elephants were pink before I would confess that Christ was not present in the Eucharist.

Well, sure, and I agree.

However, that's not what the scripture says (literally). It doesn't say "I'm really present in some way in this bread". It says "this is my body". A human body is made up of flesh, not bread. So to take the verse completely literally is to say that it's human flesh, not bread. Saying the Jesus is really present is still a symbolic interpretation, unless you are saying that the bread literally transforms into literal human flesh.

I'm not arguing against your position that Jesus is really present. I'm just pointing out that you position is already a non-literal position. I'm also not saying that the bread is "just a symbol" of Jesus - I agree that Jesus is present (just not in the literal human flesh way that the text literally says).

Papias
 
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SQLservant

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SQL wrote:
Well, sure, and I agree.

However, that's not what the scripture says (literally). It doesn't say "I'm really present in some way in this bread". It says "this is my body". A human body is made up of flesh, not bread. So to take the verse completely literally is to say that it's human flesh, not bread. Saying the Jesus is really present is still a symbolic interpretation, unless you are saying that the bread literally transforms into literal human flesh.

I'm not arguing against your position that Jesus is really present. I'm just pointing out that you position is already a non-literal position. I'm also not saying that the bread is "just a symbol" of Jesus - I agree that Jesus is present (just not in the literal human flesh way that the text literally says).

Papias

I think I get it now. Not being transformed into cells and such means the completely literal interpretation goes out the window (aside from extraordinary events, such as have appeared at Lanciano).

Even so, we maintain that it is real flesh as Scripture says, physical/chemical properties notwithstanding, while we do not maintain that what appears to have taken aeons really only took 144 hours, as Scripture appears to say. What is the difference between the two passages, that arguments from Tradition and experience and reason don't apply in the same way?
 
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Papias

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SQL wrote:


Even so, we maintain that it is real flesh as Scripture says,


No, the scripture says "this is my body". Does that mean "this contains my spiritual body"? Or "this is joined by sacramental union to my spirit", or what? Different chrisitian churches over the years have had very different answers to that.

And so who do you mean by "we"? Certainly not "we Christians", because protestants in general reject the Catholic idea that it becomes Christ by the transubstantion, going all the way back to Martin Luther, who rejected the transubstantiation and replaced it with the "sacremental union", and many more Protestants (such as Baptists and Methodists) reject that too, going with a spiritual presence only (which is still real).

You can get a good overview at the wikipedia article:
Real presence of Christ in the Eucharist - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

physical/chemical properties notwithstanding,

But if you are talking about "real flesh", the you can't just ignore the physical/chemical properties. Real flesh has certain physical/chemical properties, just like real rocks, real steel, real concrete, real water and real plastic. Anyone would rightly label me a nutter if I took a piece of concrete, and said "this concrete is real water, notwithstanding it's physical/chemical properties.". Once you say something is really something, you can't just hand wave away the physical/chemical properties.


What is the difference between the two passages, that arguments from Tradition and experience and reason don't apply in the same way?

I'm not sure what the difference is, or even that there is an important difference. They both describe divine truths (Genesis - that God created the world, and the Gospels - that Jesus is present in the eucharist), and they both do so in ways that aren't and can't be fully literal.

The Genesis account has more words in it. That's a difference, though I don't think it's an important difference.


I think I get it now. Not being transformed into cells and such means the completely literal interpretation goes out the window (aside from extraordinary events, such as have appeared at Lanciano).

Right. That's what I was saying. Thanks.


May God bless you-

Papias
 
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Knee V

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I'm often hesitant to use the word "literally" too much. For example, to take an example from Fr (St) Seraphim Rose, how do we say that God literally said "Let there be light?" Does God literally have lungs? Does God literally breath the air of some atmosphere? Does God literally have a tongue and lips by which to form words?

I'm also hesitant to use the word "figurative" too much. If Genesis 1 is a figure of something, of what is it a figure? How would we know? On what basis do we insert a foreign idea into the text? Because of the observations of our senses?

I am much more comfortable talking about it in terms of being "true". However it happens, the bread and wine "truly" become the body and blood of Christ. However it happened and whatever it means, God "truly" created the world as we find it described in Genesis, whether certain elements be literal or figurative or what have you.
 
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SQLservant

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I am much more comfortable talking about it in terms of being "true". However it happens, the bread and wine "truly" become the body and blood of Christ. However it happened and whatever it means, God "truly" created the world as we find it described in Genesis, whether certain elements be literal or figurative or what have you.

I think that's where I will have to settle on this, too.
 
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Mr Dave

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How are the two texts different?

One is primarily focussed as being Torah/Instruction...
One is primarily focussed as being Gospel

One forms part of a compiled text that was put together in the first millenium BC
One was written in the first century AD

One was written to a Hebraic audience
One was written to a Graeco-Roman audience

One comes amongst other mythological stories as a literary means to impart greater truth
One forms part of the biographical decription of Jesus'life and ministry

One was written in Hebrew, with a Hebrew mindset, linguistic devices etc.
One was written in Greek, with a Greek mindset, linguistic devices etc.


and so on and so forth
 
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Papias

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knee-v wrote:


I am much more comfortable talking about it in terms of being "true". However it happens, the bread and wine "truly" become the body and blood of Christ. However it happened and whatever it means, God "truly" created the world as we find it described in Genesis, whether certain elements be literal or figurative or what have you.


Yes, I completely agree. SQL, looks like we are all in agreement on this.

Papias
 
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Martyrs44

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The words 'This is my body' were symbolical in the same sense that Jesus commanded the people in John 6 to "Except ye eat my flesh and drink my blood ye have no life in you." Well, what did they do in response to this(?)...did his disciples literally eat his flesh off His bones and drink his literal blood...like vampires?

Absolutely not. They never touched Him. It is partaking of Him and his body spiritually that brings life, not actually eating His literal flesh.

Jesus said so! "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." John 6: 63.

So the literal eating of His flesh would not profit nor bring eternal life...it is in faith and trust in Him as proven by acts of obedience that brings life. Remember, He spoke these words BEFORE the Lord's supper was even instituted.

"By grace are ye saved through faith...and that not of yourselves.." Eph. 2:8a

The Roman Catholic dictum during communion "Hoc est einem corpus meum" has actually been degenerated to an act of black magic and that perversion of Christ's words are twisted by occultists into 'hocus pocus'...

When the Lord's Supper is performed bibilcally <edit>...Christ is, of course present in the elements...but...He is present also in the hearts of His people and in the very midst of them in their worship just as He promised that He would be. So the 'real presence' idea is a limited view of the matter. <edit>
 
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Standing_Ultraviolet

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The Catholic view is utter heresy.

Transubstantiation (the view that the bread and wine of communion actually become the body and blood of Jesus) can be found in some of the earliest Christian writings which we have, including the letters of St. Ignatius of Antioch, who wrote probably in the late first century, and was a disciple of the Apostle John. The Church has historicallytaught that the bread and wine of communion have a change in their underlying substance (ie., what they are) from bread and wine to the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ, with only the accidental aspects of bread and wine (texture, taste, chemical content, etc.) remaining. It's a complicated bit of theology, but they do become literally every part of Jesus.

History strongly supports the Catholic view of Jesus' statements regarding the Eucharist being transubstantiated into His body and blood, while oddly enough not supporting the view that Genesis' early chapters are necessarily literal. As far back as Philo, who wrote before Jesus' birth and during His life (as well as shortly after His death and resurrection), Genesis was often interpreted in a less than literal way. St. Augustine interpreted Genesis non-literally, as did many other authors in the early Church. Here, we have historical context to suggest that those parts of Genesis are not strictly literal, while we also have historical context to suggest that the Eucharistic passages are. In addition, we also have literary context (the unusual nature of the first chapter of Genesis, which is unique among Hebrew literature and appears to be between the styles of poetry and prose) to suggest that the first chapter of Genesis, at least, should not be interpreted in the same way as plain prose narrative.

All in all, the Catholic view on the Eucharist is strongly supported historically and Scripturally (consider Paul's admonition that those receiving the Eucharist unworthily are sinning "against the body and blood of Christ"), while strictly literal readings of parts of Genesis are not.
 
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Trogool

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The words 'This is my body' were symbolical in the same sense that Jesus commanded the people in John 6 to "Except ye eat my flesh and drink my blood ye have no life in you." Well, what did they do in response to this(?)...did his disciples literally eat his flesh off His bones and drink his literal blood...like vampires?

Absolutely not. They never touched Him. It is partaking of Him and his body spiritually that brings life, not actually eating His literal flesh.

Jesus said so! "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." John 6: 63.

So the literal eating of His flesh would not profit nor bring eternal life...it is in faith and trust in Him as proven by acts of obedience that brings life. Remember, He spoke these words BEFORE the Lord's supper was even instituted.

"By grace are ye saved through faith...and that not of yourselves.." Eph. 2:8a

The Roman Catholic dictum during communion "Hoc est einem corpus meum" has actually been degenerated to an act of black magic and that perversion of Christ's words are twisted by occultists into 'hocus pocus'...

When the Lord's Supper is performed bibilcally<edit>...Christ is, of course present in the elements...but...He is present also in the hearts of His people and in the very midst of them in their worship just as He promised that He would be. So the 'real presence' idea is a limited view of the matter. <edit>

I must admit, I got a good laugh from the silliness of calling the Catholic Eucharist "black magic", blasphemous as that was. I mean really? What are you getting your theology from? Jack chick tracts?

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner
 
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mark kennedy

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I was enjoying your discussion on Transubstantiation and the Eucharistic, (a relatively modern formal doctrine btw) and you change direction with this:

... passages are. In addition, we also have literary context (the unusual nature of the first chapter of Genesis, which is unique among Hebrew literature and appears to be between the styles of poetry and prose) to suggest that the first chapter of Genesis, at least, should not be interpreted in the same way as plain prose narrative.

So where did that come from because you never got it from Rome.


NEW ADVENT BIBLE: Genesis 6
Man's sin is the cause of the flood. Noah is commanded to build the ark.

NEW ADVENT BIBLE: Genesis 4
The history of Cain and Abel, including the account of the first homicide.

NEW ADVENT BIBLE: Genesis 12
The call of Abram, and the promise made to him. He sojourns in Canaan, and then goes down to Egypt during a famine.​

The book of Genesis is an historical narrative. Elements of poetic prose are literary feature but they, like all Christian scholars, understand that Genesis is historical in nature. There might be some awkward rationalization of rather or not a 24 hour day is actually 24 hours but you didn't get your rhetoric from Rome.

Among all the Scriptural texts about creation, the first three chapters of Genesis occupy a unique place. From a literary standpoint these texts may have had diverse sources. The inspired authors have placed them at the beginning of Scripture to express in their solemn language the truths of creation - its origin and its end in God, its order and goodness, the vocation of man, and finally the drama of sin and the hope of salvation. (CCC 289)​

All in all, the Catholic view on the Eucharist is strongly supported historically and Scripturally (consider Paul's admonition that those receiving the Eucharist unworthily are sinning "against the body and blood of Christ"), while strictly literal readings of parts of Genesis are not.

The Eucharist or the bread becoming the literal body of Christ does go back quite a ways, it actually predates the Roman Catholic Church. Transubstantiation is a much more modern and very different thing since it's a formal doctrine. Nothing in Scripture indicates that the bread in the Lord's Supper is anything other then bread. Nor is there anything in Scripture indicating that Genesis is anything other then an historical narrative.

What Theistic Evolutionists don't take seriously and really should is that Creation is essential doctrine. Rome has affirmed this in no uncertain terms with unparalleled consistency.

1. Christian culture being attacked on all sides
2. men easily persuade themselves in such matters that what they do not wish to believe is false or at least doubtful
5.Some imprudently and indiscreetly hold that evolution, which has not been fully proved even in the domain of natural sciences, explains the origin of all things,
6. Such fictitious tenets of evolution which repudiate all that is absolute, firm and immutable, have paved the way for the new erroneous philosophy​

Rome has never reduced any part of Genesis to poetic prose, the suggestion is baseless and false.

"To omit the creation would be to misunderstand the very history of God with men, to diminish it, to lose sight of its true order of greatness..."The sweep of history established by God reaches back to the origins, back to creation...If man were merely a random product of evolution in some place on the margins of the universe, then his life would make no sense or might even be a chance of nature," he said. "But no, Reason is there at the beginning: creative, divine Reason." (VATICAN CITY, APRIL 23, 2011, Zenit.org)

The creation, incarnation and new birth are all the same miracle, just a different manifestations. Rome has always affirmed this and always will.

Have a nice day,
Mark
 
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Standing_Ultraviolet

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So where did that come from because you never got it from Rome.
NEW ADVENT BIBLE: Genesis 6
Man's sin is the cause of the flood. Noah is commanded to build the ark.

NEW ADVENT BIBLE: Genesis 4
The history of Cain and Abel, including the account of the first homicide.

NEW ADVENT BIBLE: Genesis 12
The call of Abram, and the promise made to him. He sojourns in Canaan, and then goes down to Egypt during a famine.​
The book of Genesis is an historical narrative. Elements of poetic prose are literary feature but they, like all Christian scholars, understand that Genesis is historical in nature. There might be some awkward rationalization of rather or not a 24 hour day is actually 24 hours but you didn't get your rhetoric from Rome.
Among all the Scriptural texts about creation, the first three chapters of Genesis occupy a unique place. From a literary standpoint these texts may have had diverse sources. The inspired authors have placed them at the beginning of Scripture to express in their solemn language the truths of creation - its origin and its end in God, its order and goodness, the vocation of man, and finally the drama of sin and the hope of salvation. (CCC 289)

Sorry if there was some confusion, but I was referring pretty much exclusively to poetic elements in the first chapter of Genesis when I said that. I believe in a literal Adam, Eve, Noah, Abraham, etc. Genesis does convey actual history, but not in purely literal language (ie., Genesis doesn't require belief in a 7 day creation). I think that we actually agree pretty firmly on this. My argument here (that Genesis is history with non-literal literary elements) is something in complete agreement with the Vatican, and I think it's also the same thing that you're saying.

The Eucharist or the bread becoming the literal body of Christ does go back quite a ways, it actually predates the Roman Catholic Church. Transubstantiation is a much more modern and very different thing since it's a formal doctrine. Nothing in Scripture indicates that the bread in the Lord's Supper is anything other then bread.
I did actually give an example of a quote from St. Paul's epistles which suggests that sinning against the Eucharist is the same as sinning against the body and blood of Christ. Along with the historical evidence that the earliest followers of the apostles believed that the bread and wine literally become the body and blood of Christ, this should be sufficient to say that the doctrine is more strongly supported than the Protestant view (the strictly anti-sacramental view, which is most common in modern evangelicalism, emerged in the 16th century with Ulrich Zwingli).

The language currently used to describe transubstantiation is heavily Aristotelian, and I doubt that Ignatius of Antioch would have used the words that we do. However, his beliefs were the same. The early Church believed that the bread and wine of communion became Jesus, rather than simply coexisting with Jesus (as in the Lutheran doctrine).

Nor is there anything in Scripture indicating that Genesis is anything other then an historical narrative.
I'm actually not going to argue that it isn't historical. I will argue, however, that it contains elements of symbolism.

2. men easily persuade themselves in such matters that what they do not wish to believe is false or at least doubtful


I actually was a creationist for a very long time. Very briefly, I held to Young Earth Creationism. For a much longer time, I held to OEC, with evolution for everything but human beings. Scientific evidence convinced me that human evolution had really occurred, and I came up with pretty much every way to get around it that I could. At some point, I realized that I really couldn't.

While I agree with this statement that people do easily persuade themselves on doubtful or false things, it is also possible to be persuaded of something true.

5.Some imprudently and indiscreetly hold that evolution, which has not been fully proved even in the domain of natural sciences, explains the origin of all things,
Early statements by the popes regarding evolution dealt with the science as it existed at the time. Reading Humani Generis as though it reflects the current understanding of evolution is very difficult, although it does reflect the timeless truth that we should always look at science as what it is, rather than an infallible guide to the Universe. More recently, Pope John Paul II had this to say about evolution:

Today, almost half a century after the publication of the Encyclical, new knowledge has led to the recognition in the theory of evolution of more than a hypothesis. It is indeed remarkable that this theory has been progressively accepted by researchers, following a series of discoveries in various fields of knowledge. The convergence, neither sought nor fabricated, of the results of work that was conducted independently is in itself a significant argument in favor of this theory.
While this doesn't constitute an endorsement of evolution (contrary to what some may say, the pope was very careful regarding this; I would imagine that it's connected to the fact that Church does not promote scientific theories, since they're out of its purview when they don't conflict with Catholic doctrine).

Also, in the words of the current Pope Benedict XVI (then the head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith):

Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on earth are genetically related, it is virtually certain that all living organisms have descended from this first organism. Converging evidence from many studies in the physical and biological sciences furnishes mounting support for some theory of evolution to account for the development and diversification of life on earth, while controversy continues over the pace and mechanisms of evolution.
I agree that we (as human beings generally) should not accept scientific theories without thorough evaluation or unconditionally (ie., we shouldn't be dogmatic about any particular theory). However, we can look at the evidence and draw a conclusion. The idea that evolution occurred is now known to be very firmly supported. We can accept it in the same way that we accept any scientific finding of similar strength, knowing that faith and science cannot contradict.

Humani Generis, shortly before the sentence you quoted, says this:

However, this must be done in such a way that the reasons for both opinions, that is, those favorable and those unfavorable...be weighed and judged with the necessary seriousness, moderation and measure...
This would seem to leave no room for the categorical rejection of evolution without evaluation, either. Evolution (barring an official pronouncement against it by the Vatican, which seems unlikely), is to stand or fall on its own evidence. So far, it has stood very firmly.

6. Such fictitious tenets of evolution which repudiate all that is absolute, firm and immutable, have paved the way for the new erroneous philosophy
To accept evolution does not mean to accept philosophies which twist it for their own ends. I accept evolution, but I do not accept that evolution makes The God Delusion any more accurate, for example.

In the promulgation of Humani Generis, the pope was stating that these ideas are fictitious, regardless of the truth of evolution. He allowed for evolution's potential reality, but not of these theories. Therefore, they can't be explicitly connected.
Rome has never reduced any part of Genesis to poetic prose, the suggestion is baseless and false.

The Catholic Church does actually accept that there is a lot of symbolism in Genesis. If you mean that the Church does not accept that Genesis is ahistorical, though, then I agree. The Church affirms the historicity of Genesis, while still holding that it contains symbolic and poetic elements. There is a difference between literalism and historicity.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which is basically a compendium of what the Church teaches, puts it this way:

The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man.

This is an example of how something may be both figurative and historical.
 
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Martyrs44

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Transubstantiation (the view that the bread and wine of communion actually become the body and blood of Jesus) can be found in some of the earliest Christian writings which we have, including the letters of St. Ignatius of Antioch, who wrote probably in the late first century, and was a disciple of the Apostle John.

What Ignatius actually said was, "I desire the bread of GOD, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ."

I agree with that but that is not transubstantiation in the Catholic understanding. To EAT of that bread is to believe in Jesus Christ by faith...in the same sense that Jesus told Peter to 'feed my sheep'. Well, they were not literal sheep and that 'food' was fulfilled in the teaching and preaching to them God's Word.

Observe the following verses which are being ignored in this debate:

"Joh 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Joh 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

Understand that this was not an observance of communion (the Lord's Supper).

It was the same sermon (years before the command in the Lord's supper) that the Lord Jesus told the listeners that 'unless ye eat my flesh and drink my blood ye have no life in you.'

So................did the people therefore go up to Jesus and eat his literal flesh off of his literal body? Did they? How about it? Did they approach Jesus and drink his blood right out of his veins?

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You all know the answer to that question. Of course not. There were thousands of people there that day listening to His sermon, so if they had done so then Jesus would have died a few years BEFORE the crucifixion where the atonement for our sins was made.

They did NOT eat Jesus! Not physically. But those that believed on him were given eternal life and the grace of God.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." John 3:16.

Finally, as I pointed out before: In the very same sermon that Jesus told the people, "Except ye eat my flesh...and drink my blood..." He said,

" It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

So it is the Word of God that saves the believing soul...and not partaking of His literal flesh. Why, oh why, can't our dear Catholic friends grasp this? The Word of God does not contradict itself...but believing the Word of God is the way that one partakes of Jesus flesh and blood. It is by truly believing the Lord that one 'eats' and nothing more.
 
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Standing_Ultraviolet

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What Ignatius actually said was, "I desire the bread of GOD, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ."

I think that is a quote from Ignatius, but I was referring to this quote:

Ignatius of Antioch said:
They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again.
 
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