Theistic Evolution vs. creationism

[The thinker]

Hey all,

I know that God exists for many reasons especially because of things he's done in my life and things that he has done in other peoples lives. So that is not a problem at all for me. I am just debating with myself on what to belive about the origin of life because Creation and Theistic Evolution both have evidence backing them up.

I used to believe in Theistic Evolution because there is some (theoretical) evidence backing it up and it makes sense but I am slightly less sure now because it doesn't exactly fit with the bible but then again humans could have been around with the dinosaurs and they could have been the original animals God created and they just evolved into modern animals. This is just one of the many theories and ideas I have heard.

Creation also has some evidence backing it up and the most important thing: the Bible. I have started leaning more towards the Creationist theory since I have become a much more active Christian and I now don't have the slightest shred of doubt in my mind that God exists so I have started thinking "well it says so in the bible".

I really don't know what to believe because I know God exists and that is certain in my mind I am just confused about how he made us and I was just wondering what other Christians believe and what their opinions are on this matter.

Thanks for anything you can offer, WWC

Edit: I just thought of this, how does evolution explain first of all Adam and Eve and second from a non-Christian viewpoint how on earth did two sex's evolve from bacteria and the like, the idea and the pure chance of two sex's emerging is unbelievably complicated and unlikely.

 

[TwinCrier]

The best advice I can offer is question EVERYTHING and pray often.

2 Corinthians 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

 

[Ave Maria]

The best advice I can offer is question EVERYTHING and pray often.

2 Corinthians 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

I agree. Question everything and that includes the doctrines that your church teaches you too.

 

[The thinker]

hmm.. last month at school I was thinking about god and then out of the blue I just kept on thinking Corinthians:4 and psalms:35 so I got home and read them but they didn't really mean much so after a while I kind of forgot about it and now you are quoting 2corinthians:4 to me... coincidence?

 

[herev]

The best advice I can offer is question EVERYTHING and pray often.

2 Corinthians 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

absolutely, I agree

 

[The thinker]

lol, I didn't expect people to reply like that I was expecting more of a debate
good advice though

 

[artybloke]

I used to believe in Theistic Evolution because there is some (theoretical) evidence backing it up and it makes sense but I am slightly less sure now because it doesn't exactly fit with the bible but then again humans could have been around with the dinosaurs and they could have been the original animals God created and they just evolved into modern animals. This is just one of the many theories and ideas I have heard.

Make that masses and masses of evidence in favour of evolution. There is no evidence (at least no reliable evidence that hasn't been cooked up to fool the gullible) that human beings walked with dinosaurs.

As for the Bible; well, it depends on your interpretation: if you take a view of truth that sees "fact" as the only kind of "truth" that is real, then maybe a literalist view of the Bible is the only one you can take.

But this "factual" view of truth is nothing more than 19th century rationalism that's being adopted wholesale and uncritically by the fundamentalist minority in the church, and has very little to do with the way people thought in Biblical times. They saw no problem with using poetry and story as ways of expressing truth; so yes, the Bible tells us the truth about creation, but it isn't a scientific account and the attempt to use rationalistic arguments to "reconcile" the Bible with science is doomed to failure.

Question everything: including what your pastor says. Read and think critically, learn to assess the evidence for yourself. The problem with this, of course, is that it takes effort and doesn't always make you feel comfortable. But Jesus said that the truth shall make you free, he didn't promise it would make you feel good.

 

[Non-ape Jase]

I am a YECist purely because God tells us that he created everything in 6 days. It's so simple really. Arguing against that is impossible. I find it incredible that Christians could even entertain trying to fit that into an unproven theory suggested by falliable humans about a fallen world. God's Word is the only Truth in this world.

Ken Ham calls evolution the "anti-God religion of death", which sounds rather over the top at first. But break it done and it makes perfect sense:

Anti-God: life created itself. You can't get more anti-God than that.
Religion: it's a belief because there is no testable proof, just evidence that can be interepted in other ways.
Death: death and struggle leads ultimately to death.

It suprises me not that there is an attack on the first chapters of the Bible. Genesis is the foundation of the Gospels, so what better place for the enemy to start? Make people believe that they are nothing and cause division and poor teaching within the church. Has the world become a better place since evolution has been accepted as fact, and has been taught in schools?

 

[artybloke]

Anti-God: life created itself. You can't get more anti-God than that.

Not a belief that has anything to do with evolution, however. Though Ken Ham and his scam-artists would like you to believe that. Evolution does NOT equal atheism; it is merely the method by which God created life in all its variety.

It suprises me not that there is an attack on the first chapters of the Bible.

Nobody is attacking the first chapter of Genesis. What we are disputing is the Fundamentalist/Positivist interpretation of Genesis. Of course, I do realise that most fundamentalists think they have a direct line to God and can therefore tell everybody that what they think is what God thinks, but it ain't neccessarily so.

 

[California Tim]

Of course, I do realise that most fundamentalists think they have a direct line to God and can therefore tell everybody that what they think is what God thinks, but it ain't neccessarily so.

It saddens me to see this pious remark made over and over by the same side - as though it somehow lent credibility to the argument at hand. What a paradox it is though - (actually hypocritical) to sarcastically discredit an opponents point of view on the proper interpretation without laying claim to the same "personal infallibility" to discern the right way to read it. In order to make that accusation in the quote above, you must FIRST be convinced you alone are right and the literalist is wrong. Why, might I ask is it the TE camp that repeatedly resorts to this repulsive tactic?

 

[artybloke]

Why, might I ask is it the TE camp that repeatedly resorts to this repulsive tactic?

When fundamentalists stop saying that evolution = atheism, they'll deserve some respect.

There is no evidence for creationism, and it is spread by lies and misinformation.

 

[California Tim]

When fundamentalists stop saying that evolution = atheism, they'll deserve some respect.

In otherwords, "you'll love your neighbor when they love you first". Is that about the concept you suggest brothers in Christ demonstrate? Why not consider the erroneous remark made against you as an opportunity to mature in the faith by being the FIRST to exercise patience and love? Or do these verses on the matter have no bearing on your Christian walk?

But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you (Luke 6:27-28).

Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse (Romans 12:14).

We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it (1 Corinthians 4:12).

Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing (1 Peter 3:9).

Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble (1 John 2:9-10).

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails (1 Corinthians 13:4-8).​

 

[The thinker]

When fundamentalists stop saying that evolution = atheism, they'll deserve some respect.

Fundamentalists might say this but I understand their point of view, saying that Humans evolved is nothing like what the bible says about Adam and Eve even if you don't take it literally I don't see how evolution is in line with it and I am sure it says in the Bible that if you are a Christian you must trust and follow God in every aspect and not just ignore the beginning of the bible. Correct me if I am wrong (I don't exactly know that much about it)

But surely in the end isn't it living for God that matters and not how we got here, the fact is we are here now and that there IS an almighty loving god that we should worship. I found out about God through experiances not through reading the beginning of the bible and thinkg "well this make sense, I'll be a Christian". The other things are less important in my opinion people shouldn't get so hung up on this whole debate(I am not saying you guys are but it is true with some people)

 

[rmwilliamsll]

Fundamentalists might say this but I understand their point of view, saying that Humans evolved is nothing like what the bible says about Adam and Eve even if you don't take it literally I don't see how evolution is in line with it and I am sure it says in the Bible that if you are a Christian you must trust and follow God in every aspect and not just ignore the beginning of the bible. Correct me if I am wrong (I don't exactly know that much about it)

But surely in the end isn't it living for God that matters and not how we got here, the fact is we are here now and that there IS an almighty loving god that we should worship. I found out about God through experiances not through reading the beginning of the bible and thinkg "well this make sense, I'll be a Christian". The other things are less important in my opinion people shouldn't get so hung up on this whole debate(I am not saying you guys are but it is true with some people)

this is fundamentally the argument from personal incredulity. the solution to which is education.

start with:

Evolution from Creation to New Creation: Conflict, Conversation, and Convergence by Ted Peters, Martinez Hewlett

both men are serious Christians, knowledgable and excellent teachers. who will show you a wide variety of believers who engaged with the topic of creation-evolution in a significant and helpful way......

my review:
This book is one of those extraordinary reads. I bought it simply because i had Martinez Hewlett along with Thomas Lindell and William Stoeger as team teachers for an unusual and very interesting seminar class at the U of Arizona, theology and biology. It was a continuation of Dr. Lindell's interests in bioethics and exactly how to relate science to theology in a constructive and useful, to both parties, manner. A truely unique experience for which i am again thankful. But if buying this book because of the author was the reason for opening it and reading the first few chapters, i would have stopped there, for the book itself must carry my interest from that point. This one did. Very much so, engaging, informative, interesting, clever, structured wisely- just a few of my comments. I seldom thoroughly enjoy a book as much as i did this one, i even wrote WOW on the last page in my yellow highlighter, it is good.

Why?
First, it represents the culmination of two really interesting people's work. Dr. Hewlett is a clever, talented, thoughtful and spiritually aware man. He is a poet, a novelist, a viral researcher, but most appropriately to this book- a good teacher. There is something special about a talented teacher who can unfold a topic IN ORDER, with a structure that shows the neophyte how the pieces fit together. And gives us the pieces in an order that helps us see the big picture that the author's themselves grasp. Hey readers, this is RARE. More often you hit things in a logical or chronological order, pieces are thrown at you without reference to the big picture. So you often are lost as a student in a new field in the forest, concentrating on the trees and never ever able to understand why anyone would actually come to this forest. A good teacher, or a good writer, never lets the structure interfere with your reason for being there, for your motivation to read the next page. But they have you anticipate and salivate for the next chapter or the next idea.

Second, it represents distilled knowledge, carefully written to teach the essentials of the debate so that you can be lead to understand their big point. There is lots of background information here, people, spectrums, differentiations between close ideas, that are the meat and potatoes of this feast. Yet the point they want you to understand is available in just a few pages- chapter 7 Theistic Evolution: A Constructive Proposal, but you must read the book pretty much in straight order to get there. This is because of the culmulativeness of the material, the distinctions that they make, and the specialized vocabulary you need to understand. So pick it up and read front to back, with a pen in hand to markup and take notes, this is not a walk in the park book, but a serious analysis, worthy of your best efforts.

Third, i am impressed at the carefulness of the structure. Intro, Darwin, Social Darwinism, Creationism, ID, TE then their proposal.
It is certainly the result of Dr. Hewlett's teaching of the topics to seniors at university, first they are looking outside of school perhaps for the first time in their lives, and second they are self-absorbed and desireous of internal consistency and coherence, those early adulthood dilemmas and opportunities. By presenting it this way, the interactions between people and ideas is so obvious that it is extremely natural to be drawn into the discussion and look inward. nice.
I appreciate the talent and insight, for instance, "science must first be extracted from it's ideological wrapping" pg. 19, but a constant and important theme throughout.

Hey, it is just such an awesome book, if you have any interest in the topic, just get it and don't waste time reading more reviews but get onto reading it.

 

[The thinker]

Thanks, I'll look out for it

 

[gluadys]

Hey all,

I know that God exists for many reasons especially because of things he's done in my life and things that he has done in other peoples lives. So that is not a problem at all for me. I am just debating with myself on what to belive about the origin of life because Creation and Theistic Evolution both have evidence backing them up.

Theistic Evolution has no problem with Creation. We all believe God created. The problem is with creationism---the theory that the biblical accounts of creation are also scientific accounts of creation. Since scientific evidence conflicts at almost every point with a literal interpretation of Gen. 1 & 2 (not to mention with the flood story), it makes much more sense to consider the biblical accounts to be teaching stories, not scientific data. This was the way the people of ancient and medieval times thought of them too, even though they didn’t have access to modern scientific data. So we are not breaking with Christian tradition to treat them as sacred stories rather than literal science.

I used to believe in Theistic Evolution because there is some (theoretical) evidence backing it up and it makes sense but I am slightly less sure now because it doesn't exactly fit with the bible but then again humans could have been around with the dinosaurs and they could have been the original animals God created and they just evolved into modern animals. This is just one of the many theories and ideas I have heard.

Vance’s signature line warns about getting information about evolution from creationist sources, and it’s a good thing to remember. It is a very good idea to check any claim (such as humans and dinosaurs living together) against this Index to Creationist Claims to see how accurate the claim is and the evidence that goes against it. The Index itself is fully referenced so you can investigate further if you like.

Creation also has some evidence backing it up and the most important thing: the Bible. I have started leaning more towards the Creationist theory since I have become a much more active Christian and I now don't have the slightest shred of doubt in my mind that God exists so I have started thinking "well it says so in the bible".

The bible teaches creation, and we all agree with that. But does it teach creationism? That’s a different question and many of us do not agree that the bible teaches creationism. Keep your mind open and follow some of the threads here.

I really don't know what to believe because I know God exists and that is certain in my mind I am just confused about how he made us and I was just wondering what other Christians believe and what their opinions are on this matter.

Thanks for anything you can offer, WWC

Well, you’ve come to the right place. You will hear all sides here.

Edit: I just thought of this, how does evolution explain first of all Adam and Eve and second from a non-Christian viewpoint how on earth did two sex's evolve from bacteria and the like, the idea and the pure chance of two sex's emerging is unbelievably complicated and unlikely.

For Adam and Eve, see the Romans 5:14 thread in the Theistic Evolution sub-forum. As for sex, did you know that even bacteria exchange their DNA? It’s a process called conjugation and it is a sort of bacterial precursor to sex. Many unicellular life forms do reproduce sexually, even though they are not male and female. Gender comes much later than sex. And remember that even some complex animals like fish and some amphibians use external fertilization where the matching of body parts is not as essential as with internal fertilization. Also some creatures are hermaphroditic (both male and female at once.) Some (but not all) of these are even self-fertilizing.

It would certainly be a problem if the evidence showed that all creatures were either asexual or gendered beings using internal fertilization like us and you had to envisage one type of sexuality transforming in one bound to the other by chance. But that’s not what the evidence shows. Instead it shows many different ways of being sexual and it is not difficult to imagine a step-by-step process of getting from asexual to fully gendered sexuality.

 

[Vance]

The best advice I can give in addition to prayer and study is to simply read through the back and forth of the discussion on this forum. You will see both sides presented, and then you can make up your own mind. Always remember, though, that how you believe about the issue of origins should not effect your belief about the essentials for salvation. The Scripture is God's message to us and you can fully trust that this message is true and correct, no matter what debate there is over whether it is historical or not, occasionally contradictory on the details or not. It is still all TRUE and believable.

 

[The thinker]

Thanks for all the different opinions, I guess now its pretty much left up to me to decide

 

[Non-ape Jase]

Though Ken Ham and his scam-artists would like you to believe that.

Careful, these are fellow brothers and sisters you are bad mouthing, not to mention brothers and sisters who are also scientists. It's incredible that a fellow Christian (I can only assume you are) couild attack Bible believing Christians like that.

Evolution does NOT equal atheism;

Of course it does. Athiest Evolutionists don't want anything to do with God in their precious little unproven theory.

it is merely the method by which God created life in all its variety.

Brother, I feel called to ask you to prove that. Were you there? It sounds to me that you have allowed secular influences cloud your understanding of God's Word, when in fact you are called to cloud the understanding of secular influences with God's Word.

Nobody is attacking the first chapter of Genesis.

If you are saying it happened differently, then you are attacking not only Genesis, but questioning God. Brave, but unwise.

Of course, I do realise that most fundamentalists think they have a direct line to God and can therefore tell everybody that what they think is what God thinks, but it ain't neccessarily so.

If by 'direct line to God' you mean having a basic understanding of the Bible, not to mention a personal relationship with him, then I am guilty of this.


What would Jesus be doing in this situation? Well, he'd still be quoting from Genesis. And since everything was made through him, he is in the best situation to know.

 

[Vance]

See, Tim, there ARE YEC's that argue like that! So, next time you say that YEC's don't really take such positions, I will just refer you to this thread! :0)

If there were only more YEC's like Jase . . .