The Wall

ern said:

I've always loved that cop-out, "Science doesn't deal in _______." It is used for any number of real life events, from miracles to spiritual beings (angels or demons). Even though they use it as a defense against certain points brought up, all it serves to do is show the shortcoming of scientific theory. Now I'm not saying science is a bad thing, I'm just saying that science should not be the number one thing used to explain a certain phenomenom. First go to the Bible, see what it says, then feel free to move on to science. One more thing, I'm not saying that these "walls" are the products of a miracle, I don't know what caused them, I just wanted to bring to light this cop-out that is used far to often.

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Science cannot deal with the super-natural. However, it can deal with the physical effects of the super-natural. Because of this, it can state that no supernatural explaination is needed for something (such as the transfer of this post across the internet) or disprove supernatural claims with physical effects (such as the claim that God has a giant palace on the other side of the moon).

dctalkexp said:

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Science does indeed deal with the natural laws that God has created. However, if the people of Jesus' time had all the scientific knowledge we have today, what would you say then? Perhaps that Jesus didn't do a miracle, because there may have been a way naturally that it could have happened, and if we can't find out scientifically how Jesus did it, we must then just not ever know if it truly was a miracle, since science has no say regarding the matter? Well, we know that it is impossible for water to just automatically turn into water, scientifically, so this indeed does bring us grounds to say that it was miraculous.

God bless.

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Science can only say that there is no known physical way to turn water into wine. It cannot say anything the miracles of Jesus since they can't go back in time to study them.

fragmentsofdreams said:

Science can only say that there is no known physical way to turn water into wine. It cannot say anything the miracles of Jesus since they can't go back in time to study them.

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Re-read my post, please. I said that if they did have the scientific knowledge we had today.

God bless.

TheBear said:

How is it a cop-out? It is a fact. Science only deals in the realm of our natural world. Period. Science has no position on things spiritual or supernatural, one way or the other, and remains neutral on the topic. If something is unexplained in science, it remains unexplained until/unless it is explained. If it is explained in the realm of the supernatural, that's great, but has nothing to do with science.

Ages past, many civilizations attributed things like lightning, volcanos, earthquakes and other natural occurences, to God showing His anger or wrath. Science has since explained these occurences.

I just wanted to bring to light the reality of what science deals in, and what it doesn't deal in.

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Thats what makes it such a great cop-out. Science doesn't have to explain the super natural, it can just be ignored.

An auto mechanic does not have to explain the deatils of a medical procedure. Is that a cop-out too?

I think you're missing the point here. Science is not, in any way shape or form, an authority on things religeous, spiritual or moral, and never makes any claims that they are. Science has no opinion on these matters, one way or the other.

In this specific area of science, the same scientific method is used the same as anything else in the scientific community. The fact that the scientific findings and theories, in this specific area, conflict with a particular religeous view, does not somehow make the scientific community responsible. They could care less about religeous views. If there is evedince that points to something that overturns an entire theory, they are welcomed. There is no purpose or meaning to cling tenaceously to a theory that is chok full of flaws. The grants and funding would have dried up years ago, because there would be no reliable results.

Now, if there is scientific evidence that completely overtuns the entire theory of evolution, present it, just like any other hypotheses, to the scientific community. The Nobel Prize in Physics and the Nobel Prize in Medicine, (and maybe - just maybe, as the result of the harmony between science and the literalists, the Nobel Peace Prize ), are there for the taking.

A problem with a lot of modern science, that is the last 200 years, is that its underlying motive was written to explain away acts of God--that is miracles. Read the original writings of many of the "authors" of cosmotology and note the disturbing attitude they take towards a creator and the things He values. Do you think these orginated from the hearts of these men, or their minds?

Of course any civilizations, most pagan that I am aware of, have stories of "miracles" that were nothing but nature in action. Yet, there are scientist that are constantly attempting to give scientific explanations of things such as the burning bush, the pillar of fire, and countless other examples. They make assumptions that man several hundred years ago, was ignorant enough to carry on a conversation with a gas-fed bush, thinking it was God. This chip on some particular scientists shoulder, that Christians just want to classify everything as a miracle, is mounted at will when it suits there weaknesses in explanation. The real scientists are open minded (the best ones are open-spirited as well) to all possibilities, even to historical evidence that is bonefide and tested to corroborate with many other historical recordings.

The Word of God is a miracle itself. It's proven itself and has been revealed through the Holy Spirit to those that give a flip and are bold enough to declare it. Furthermore, it's apparently been protected against man's degenerative moral standard and will one day judge the world. The day I dread to hear the words--it's right here in black and white, even in your own language stupid! What were you thinking?!!!?

Take a moment to browse through other forums of less privileged users. When you read their entries, what does your spirit tell you? Is it disturbed? It should be, that exact attitude and deadened spirit state is, or one day will be, trying to mislead your children.

If you haven't already, scan through a book called Creation Hypothesis, by JP Moreland. It inspects the creation theory and uses several approaches to do so.