The Wall of Doubt

God is truth, so my guess is that if you want to know the truth, Heaven, with God, would be a good place to go. John 14:6 English Standard Version
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

He gives knowledge to those that are understanding.
Daniel 2:21
He changes times and seasons; he removes kings and sets up kings;he gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to those who have understanding;

Read more: http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/10-bible-verses-about-knowledge/#ixzz3wFbrJZNQ


I don't know what is in heaven, but if God is the truth and the devil is the deceiver and the father of lies, I would imagine you would have a better chance of discovering the truth through Jesus.

godshapedhole said:

If God exists in some part in a Spinozan sense, that is, nature is God, then I would love nothing more than to understand it and therefore Him. To me, understanding nature is pure bliss itself, that moment of comprehension when all the pieces fall together, whether it be understanding cellular respiration or general relativity, it is the supreme, sublime beauty of the universe and the human mind, when they come together as one. If understanding the universe (and therefore God) is heaven, I want in. If it's not, and you just have to accept miracles as miracles and sing God's loving praises (perhaps a stereotypical view of heaven), I'm not interested.

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Nature is God? If this is what you believe, you have a very small view of God indeed. God is not what He has made, any more than a potter is the pot that he has made, or a painter the painting he has created. It is a very silly person who looks at a clay pot and declares, "This pot is the potter!" We may see superficially something of the character and nature of God in what He has made, but thinking you can know Him completely through His Creation is like thinking you can know a potter just by studying his pots, or a painter his paintings. Can a clay pot reveal to you all the life history of the potter? Can a clay pot tell you whether or not the potter is tall or short, blue-eyed, or brown? Can a clay pot show you the intricacies of the potter's genetic code, or the complex neurology of his brain? Obviously not. Likewise, Creation can only disclose to us the most surface and simple facts about the Creator.

Selah.

godshapedhole said:

Even if you were omniscient, and had a quadrillion years to contemplate everything I just ran through in the previous paragraph, you would still only have contemplated a tiny fraction of nature.

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But the Christian conception of God as omniscient means He has always known everything. God does not, therefore, obtain new knowledge, nor does He "think" on anything as though He needs to better understand it. It is in this aspect - among many others - where God is transcendent to His Creation and cannot be known or understood simply through what He has made.

Selah.

godshapedhole said:

At the moment it's hard to say. For most of my life I've been an agnostic atheist, not believing in God because I saw no evidence for God. But my interest in God has grown recently, an inquisitive interest, and I just happen to have been born in a traditionally Christian country, so that's where I'm starting. I'm curious as to why so many people do believe, and wonder if I look hard enough, whether I myself might believe, but I will always try to stay vigilant in not becoming trapped in scare tactics or false promises! Whatever I find, I'm very confident nothing will shake my belief that the best way to understand the 'material' world is through the modern scientific method.

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The “scientific method”, should get you to the most logical alternative interpretation of the data, but science excludes by definition the supernatural (deity). If you’re willing to accept the possibility of the supernatural, you can use the scientific method to see God as the most logical alternative interpretation of the data.

We can talk about the making of the universe, but I, as a Chemist, prefer to talk about life coming from nonliving chemicals and that possibility, which is virtually impossible. There is not an infinite amount of time for this to happen on a planet in the good life zone, since the planet exist for a finite amount of time. On earth, DNA type life seems to have started about the same time liquid water would remain a liquid on earth, so how could that happen?

We have intelligence, so if there is no intelligence (especially greater intelligence) in the universe to create intelligence, how would intelligence come about from just random actions?

How much more likely would it be for intelligent life to create other intelligent life than it would be for random reactions to produce intelligent life?

godshapedhole said:

If God exists in some part in a Spinozan sense, that is, nature is God, then I would love nothing more than to understand it and therefore Him. To me, understanding nature is pure bliss itself, that moment of comprehension when all the pieces fall together, whether it be understanding cellular respiration or general relativity, it is the supreme, sublime beauty of the universe and the human mind, when they come together as one. If understanding the universe (and therefore God) is heaven, I want in. If it's not, and you just have to accept miracles as miracles and sing God's loving praises (perhaps a stereotypical view of heaven), I'm not interested.

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I don't believe that nature is God. I believe that nature is because of God. God is the great "I Am" and everything that exists, exists because of God. Understanding the universe (and therefore God) is in the incorrect order. I can believe that in heaven, we would understand God (or more of God) and therefore nature.

<Staff Edit>
This isn't case for the Christian. The Bible reveals that God is an unembodied Spirit, a perfect, infinite Mind, if you like, and as such is quite simple - certainly much simpler than the material universe with all its enormously complex physical structures and processes.

Selah.

<Staff Edit>
Well, you have a big problem if this is how you wish to define the Christian conception of God. The complexity of the universe that you pointed out earlier in this thread is a material or physical complexity. But the God revealed in the Bible is immaterial, non-corporeal, and so has no such complexity. Thus, your "definition" is neither Christian nor, in the case of Jehovah, logical. You see, since time, space, matter and energy came into being when the universe began, the Cause of the universe had to be timeless, spaceless, immaterial and immensely powerful. In other words, far simpler - physically speaking - than the universe itself. And this is exactly the nature of the God revealed in the Bible.

Selah.

godshapedhole said:

That's an interesting thing to think about, if God, as it were, "wound up the clockwork" of the universe and let it go at the big bang, then sat back and didn't interfere in matters of chemistry, life and evolution, God could be quite simple, just setting up the necessary constants (speed of light, gravitational constant etc.) of the universe and letting it go, and letting emergence doing the rest, not God.

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If there is one thing the Bible makes very clear it is that God has not established the universe, set it in motion, and then walked away from it to unfold as it will.

Selah.

godshapedhole said:

I think that if there is a God of the Bible, He would have enough intelligence to create a universe with natural characteristics and laws which allow for chemistry from which life can emerge, without divine interference, then upon the emergence of life intelligent enough to contemplate its own existence, its place in the world around it, build civilisations, devise technology and agriculture, and grasp the notion of a God, He could then engage in revelation to those intelligent creatures who took 13.8 billion years (presumably not a long time for God) since the moment of His creation to come into existence. I'm not saying I believe in such a God, but that would be a more plausible God.

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God is not obliged by His supreme intelligence to create a self-sustaining universe. And what you may find "more plausible" has nothing really to do with what is.

godshapedhole said:

I think the idea of a God who has to come in and fiddle about with things like evolution and the chemistry needed to create life from non-living organic chemistry is a rather pathetic and small idea of a God.

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Well, you're entitled to your opinion.

And I don't think God fiddled with evolution and chemistry in order to bring humanity into existence.

Selah.

godshapedhole said:

I think science is still its infancy. Think about how little we knew about life just 200 years ago. We didn't know about natural selection, we had no conception of the age of the universe (or even that it had an age). When my uncle was studying biochemistry in the 50's, the structure of DNA had only just been discovered. If life can arise from non-life, it doesn't have to be probable, it can be astronomically improbable. There's octillions of stars in the observable universe, and there's billions of years in which the process could have occurred - it only had to happen once.

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The idea "science is still its infancy" is part of the truism "the more we know the more we realize we do not know." This is especially true of life itself. It takes an overall greater complexity (intelligence for the most part) to create something with less complexity. Life is extremely complex, so it will take something much more complex to make life.

KC Sparks said:

It's wrong and I still committed them, shouldn't I take responsibility for those actions?

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You should but you can't. Sin places us in a hole too deep to climb out of. If one does not recognize sin, then they also do not recognize a need for salvation or for Christ.

Be honest with yourself and ask God to show you your own sin and need for mercy. It may take some time, don't force it and don't worry if it doesn't come right away.

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KC Sparks said:

I read the above post, and it kinda hit a bell in me, perhaps not for all the same reasons. I used to be an agnostic, but I've been going to church for the past 2 years, and needed somewhere to vent (so sorry in advance )

Personally, I believe firmly in the existence of God, that He's around us, helping us, still shaping the world we live in. I have too many things in my life that I'm grateful for, things that I believe God have granted to me. And yet, I find myself facing a wall of doubt regarding Sin, and Jesus.

I recognise that I am sinful. Heck I know everyday we do things that are sinful, everyday things like hate, or greed. But when they talk about how Jesus died for our sins, it strikes me that hey, these sins are mine. Jesus loved us, so He did it for us. But what if I don't want someone to die for my sins? I know it's wrong. It's wrong and I still committed them, shouldn't I take responsibility for those actions?

Yeah, I know the penalty is to burn in hell, etc etc. And some may say if I truly seek a relationship with God it's the only way. But what the hell. It just kinda goes against what I am.

Another thing that bothers me is prayer. I do pray once in awhile, but while others tell me God speaks to them in prayer, there's nothing there for me. Is it the sinful nature that separates me from God? I believe most will answer me in that way, but..



Honestly, I think I know the answers. But the wall is there. And it doesn't budge.

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I can tell you God's never answered me in prayer but he answers my prayers faithfully and loyally as soon as I knew what is was to pray. The relationship that God the Father had with us, wants with us, and couldn't have with us until Jesus died for us is really hard to wrap our heads around let alone explain and not very many people are willing to follow Jesus and his teaching but I'll tell you from experience there's none better.

KC Sparks said:

I read the above post, and it kinda hit a bell in me, perhaps not for all the same reasons. I used to be an agnostic, but I've been going to church for the past 2 years, and needed somewhere to vent (so sorry in advance )

Personally, I believe firmly in the existence of God, that He's around us, helping us, still shaping the world we live in. I have too many things in my life that I'm grateful for, things that I believe God have granted to me. And yet, I find myself facing a wall of doubt regarding Sin, and Jesus.

I recognise that I am sinful. Heck I know everyday we do things that are sinful, everyday things like hate, or greed. But when they talk about how Jesus died for our sins, it strikes me that hey, these sins are mine. Jesus loved us, so He did it for us. But what if I don't want someone to die for my sins? I know it's wrong. It's wrong and I still committed them, shouldn't I take responsibility for those actions?

Yeah, I know the penalty is to burn in hell, etc etc. And some may say if I truly seek a relationship with God it's the only way. But what the hell. It just kinda goes against what I am.

Another thing that bothers me is prayer. I do pray once in awhile, but while others tell me God speaks to them in prayer, there's nothing there for me. Is it the sinful nature that separates me from God? I believe most will answer me in that way, but..

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I understand what you mean by this and have felt in a similar way. For me it was, we should be accountable for our own actions and it isn't really fair to have someone else pay for our mistakes. I've gotten past this understanding mostly by trusting God's word and leaning not on my own understanding. It makes sense to me for us to have to account for our own transgressions and this way seems more fair to my understanding but, as it is written in Ezekiel 18:25, "Yet you say the way of the Lord is not equal... Is not my way equal? or are not your ways unequal?" I understand now that my ways are very unequal to God only wise, the Creator of all heaven and earth's ways. It may seem that they are not to me, but what can I know compared to an all-powerful, all-knowing God?

Another thing you may want to consider is that you really have no idea of what the wrath of God is like. I really have no idea of what the wrath of God is like. No one living in the world today does. You may want to think about it carefully if you'll consider again taking responsibility for your own actions (or words to that effect). We're talking about a holy God here whose ways are not our own. There are sins we commit that we don't even know about, his holiness is so foreign to us. Sure, we may want pay the price if somehow we fall away and end up committing robbery or even killing someone. But we're held accountable to love God with our whole heart, soul, mind and strength. Is there really anyone that can say they do this? I'm doubtful that there is even a handful of people that can say this, in truth.

It is best, in my understanding, to trust when God tells us that we need a Saviour even if we don't feel like we do. I do not understand how anyone can encounter the barest fraction of the holiness of God without feeling that they need Jesus, but that is neither here nor there. The best I can advise in that way is to read over the ten commandments and all their implications (when God says do not steal, he means to not commit the crime of taking something from others, but also to do our best to promote the well-being and prosperity of those around us just as when Jesus teaches about the commandment "do not murder" also means do not get angry at others since that is also committing murder against them) and realize that this is the standard which God holds us to. I don't know how that cannot make someone fall to their knees in thankfulness for Jesus.

As for prayer, I think this is something which most Christians struggle with. At least many of the pastors whose sermons I've listened too often commented on how difficult prayer is for them. I'd urge you to pray to God every day and not just sometimes. This is very difficult but it is a way to spend more time with him. I don't feel as though God is speaking to me when I pray. It seems like there is nothing there often and also that I end up repeating the same things over and over again. Beg God to open your heart to him and reveal himself to you in his word. Don't expect some magic revelation or suddenly feeling something different. It likely won't happen that way. Rather trust God's word that when you pray in the name of Jesus, he will hear you. He will answer your prayer though the only answer may be not now, or it may be no. God isn't someone we come to when things aren't going our way and we need some help. He definitely is a help to us, but he is not there in order to help us; he is a Sovereign God and Lord of our lives and whatever our prayer is it should be that it is according to his will.

KC Sparks said:

I read the above post, and it kinda hit a bell in me, perhaps not for all the same reasons. I used to be an agnostic, but I've been going to church for the past 2 years, and needed somewhere to vent (so sorry in advance )

Personally, I believe firmly in the existence of God, that He's around us, helping us, still shaping the world we live in. I have too many things in my life that I'm grateful for, things that I believe God have granted to me. And yet, I find myself facing a wall of doubt regarding Sin, and Jesus.

I recognise that I am sinful. Heck I know everyday we do things that are sinful, everyday things like hate, or greed. But when they talk about how Jesus died for our sins, it strikes me that hey, these sins are mine. Jesus loved us, so He did it for us. But what if I don't want someone to die for my sins? I know it's wrong. It's wrong and I still committed them, shouldn't I take responsibility for those actions?

Yeah, I know the penalty is to burn in hell, etc etc. And some may say if I truly seek a relationship with God it's the only way. But what the hell. It just kinda goes against what I am.

Another thing that bothers me is prayer. I do pray once in awhile, but while others tell me God speaks to them in prayer, there's nothing there for me. Is it the sinful nature that separates me from God? I believe most will answer me in that way, but..

Honestly, I think I know the answers. But the wall is there. And it doesn't budge.

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Speaking from experience, you're the one creating the wall. For some reason, you have decided to believe you can't get to God. Maybe you're putting your faith in your failures instead of in God?! Once I stopped believing there was a wall, things started happening. As I just posted in another thread, faith is not a feeling, it's a decision to act on something. Faith is a verb, it's done by acting on something no matter how you do, or do not feel. You can make a decision to trust or believe when you have intense fear, or when you feel nothing at all. Feelings come and go, and I found that it's best not to wait on a feeling, or I could be waiting a long time. I recommend you read the Amplified Bible and start in the New Testament. Google "Promises of God" and start reading what God has promised to give you "for free", and I'm not talking about money or material possessions. I'm talking about peace of mind, joy, and wisdom to make the right decisions in every area of your life. As far as God speaking to you, God speaks to everyone, everyday. Everyone hears God, they just don't know it's God, they think it's their own thoughts. And most people ignore those thoughts because they feel foreign, uncomfortable even. If we would just relax, and decide we're gonna believe God is listening, and that he is speaking to us, no matter how we feel, we will begin to hear him directing us. It's way more simple than we make it out to be. God is not complicated at all. Praying, in Jesus name, that God helps you get a grasp on what true faith is, and gives you the strength to stop relying on feelings.