The violence debate

candle glow said:

Hi all,

Over on another thread there has been some discussion about Christians and the military. For me, I'm fairly well convinced regarding the military and Christianity.

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candle glow said:

But someone brought up the idea of police and I wondered if that's really the same. Police are meant to protect people, but isn't that the same as what the military does?

Is it wrong to call the police, knowing that they carry guns and have a mandate to kill people if they deem it necessary?

What is violence? How does it relate to enemies and enemy loving? What is an enemy?

*Violence:
a : exertion of physical force so as to injure or abuse;
vehement feeling or expression.

Enemy: one that is antagonistic to another; especially : one seeking to injure, overthrow, or confound an opponent 2: something harmful or deadly.

Love your enemy--<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/8jbibrY32fE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Defending yourself from your enemy/enemies:
Ezekiel 33 "... 6 'But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, and the people are not warned, and a sword comes and takes a person from them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require from the watchman's hand.'
If you know danger is coming to others, and you deliberately fail to warn the others of the danger, you are guilty of harming the victims. This is not to say that you can make people heed your warning. The surrounding verses also say that if the people refuse to heed the warning of the watchmen, the watchman is not guilty if they are harmed.



We also see principles in Mosaic law teaching that if we fail to guard the lives of others, we are guilty. In Deuteronomy 22:8, if someone falls from your roof, and you failed to install a safety fence around the edge, you would be held liable for the death of that person. Likewise, in Exodus 21:29-31, if a man has an ox which is prone to harm people, the owner is held liable if he fails to confine it and the ox harms or kills others. If the ox harms someone, the negligent owner is fined. If the ox kills someone, the negligent owner is to be put to death.
The principle could hardly be stated more forcefully: you must protect your life and the lives of others.




Is it wrong to take a life in any circumstance or are their exceptions? If so what are the exceptions?

If there is a crazy lunatic running around shooting people with a machine gun, would it be wrong to throw a rock at his head to knock him out, even knowing that there is the possibility that the attack could actually kill him?

Anyway, I look forward to your thoughtful responses.

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*
Exodus 20:13 You shall not murder.
Murder is wrong. This means the premeditated killing of others is wrong. Killing in a fit of emotion is also wrong and is prohibited here.
We must do all that we can to avoid it and stay as far away as possible from taking life.



Exodus 22:2-3 2 "If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed.

Nehemiah 4:14 specifically says, "...fight for your brothers, your sons, your daughters, your wives, and your houses." It is good and right to defend your family, even using lethal force weapons.
Read the whole chapter...the men stayed armed while rebuilding and were
willing to defend their families if the enemy had attacked.

In the book of Esther we find that King Ahasuerus (convinced by Esther) to save her people--He had a special Writ prepared and sent out to her people stating they could defend themselves from attack.

The examples you use here sound more like simple common sense issues rather than issues relating to violence and enemy loving.

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Nehemiah 4:14 specifically says, "...fight for your brothers, your sons, your daughters, your wives, and your houses." It is good and right to defend your family,

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Your ID shows you from Nairobi, and that could put a different slant on the discussion. Where I live, police are 99.5% trustworthy. There might be a few hotheads, or people who get tempted, but for the most part, we like how they do their job.

If we read about countries with militant groups and corrupt governments, we see a very different picture. I consider Kenya is fairly stabilized, but there might be times you feel they are doing injustice when they should be protecting and defending justice.

&#8220;But I say love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.&#8221;

How did Jesus show love to his enemies?
He tried to teach/share the Word of God with them,
he "emptied" himself when teaching his disciples --Judas included.

However, Jesus didn't do a bunch of kowtowing with those who hated
him...he wasn't continually before his enemies begging them to love him
nor was he trying to smooze his way into their social circles.

Impassioned or violent response....John 2:14-15 In the temple courts he found people selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple courts, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.

(Jesus knew Judas would betray Him...Judas didn't have the "guts"
to plunge a knife into Jesus' heart but he would "sell" out...all this was known
to our Lord.)

There are enemies we can love like Jesus loved Judas...there are some enemies
that we can't...why? because those are the ones who are so bent on doing us
harm that they can't be reasoned with and you can't even be around because they
are so full of hate that they would do you or your loved ones major harm.

A little about me and my background-- I grew up in an area of NC that had a lot of bigots...our next door neighbor
was in the KKK and he caused us a lot of problems.

My mom is a Christian and she raised us children to love the Lord and to love others. We couldn't show a lot of love for our neighbor because he was so full of hate that he would try to do us physical/bodily harm if we outside and mom wasn't present. One time he "exposed himself" to my brother and told him - N(use of the N word)---- this is all you are good for! And made "signs" of a sexual nature at my brother.

How my mom responded to this threat (after my brother told her about what happened)-- Reported to the police-- the good 'ol boy officer that showed up
gave our bigot neighbor a "slap on the wrist".
After that event we prayed a lot and stayed out of sight of the neighbor
when he was outside.
(There are some folks you have to "love" from afar.)

My dad let our neighbor know if he (the neighbor)ever put his hands on any of us, he would shoot him.
I will also tell you my mom and the neighbor's wife were friends....they would
gather in our kitchen to talk and do meal preparations before her husband came home.

I take the Bible as a whole as all scripture is useful.

If you don't believe in defending yourself or family against someone who is
going to them harm, that is your decision. You can use whatever scripture
to back up your stance...just as I can do the same.

I don't believe every enemy needs to be killed, sometimes wounding that
person is the right choice. There are times you can reason with someone
and there are times you have to keep quiet.

Romans 12:20
&#8220;And if your enemy hungers, feed him, and if he thirsts, give him a drink, and if you do these things to him you will heap coals of fire on his skull.

You can offer food and drink but it doesn't mean your enemy will accept it or
show kindness toward you. I learned this from personal experience...I still
make the attempt to show kindness but I don't push or force it on someone who is
my enemy.

candleglow

I can hardly believe it.
Another poster pointed out that you are from Nairobi ... I should have remembered that.

No offense ... but are you kidding???
You are living in Nairobi and you are debating any kind of violence.
My goodness, Nairobi is one of the roughest cities in Africa. Do I need to remind you about the violent behavior of the wakomi (gangsters) in that city. It's BAD beyond belief.

Yes- if you see a criminal in Nairobi about to hurt an innocent person, hit the guy on the head with a rock. As long as you can do it safely, then try to save an innocent life. The gangster is probably sociopathic. He cares nothing about human life - he could kill a chicken as easily as he could kill a human being. You know, and I also know from firsthand experience, that there are plenty of criminals in your city who operate exactly like that.

You are going to have to be a bit practical, and try to adapt the Biblical standards to the place where you are living. Especially in a place like Nairobi. If possible, of course show kindness and mercy. But God does not require you to sacrifice yourself to criminals who behave like animals.

Gideon123

What job? And "how they do it" means what, in practical terms regarding violence?

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I live in the US. The policemen have plenty of laws that they themselves have to abide by, including when they are allowed to use violence or deadly force.

The assumption in their limits is that police violence is appropriate when the person is resisting arrest and threatening the lives of the officers, victims, or surrounding people. It is not appropriate when the person is not resisting or a threat to others.

If a law does not seem fair, or the behavior of a policeman is unfair, we appeal to higher offices, the court, or the news media. The people have a voice, and eventually the situation is given a hearing and fair assessment.

There is no difference in the military. They all have a strict laws to abide by when using deadly force.

In reality, Police are much more closely watched. Think about it, in the military and war you can have what the call "collateral damage" There is no such thing in policing. You cant say, well i was shooting at the bad guy but accidentally missed and hit 5 bystanders. You could possibly goto jail. Police (which I am one) are also recorded non stop on cell phone cameras and in car cams.

I have sought the advice of people on here, and prayed about it, and I believe that if an innocent is being harmed then I need to do what is needed to stop the harm. At some point the results of what happen have to be the fault of the bad guy. I believe the Lord will forgive me if I need to take a life of a bad guy to save an innocent. In fact I would be doing the Lord a disservice if I chose not to act

it all depends, I guess if I were in the position to defend myself and my family I would rather kill instead of being killed...

Ideally we shouldn't need to use any physical violence.

But often in this world the ideal option is obscured/seemingly unavailable.

So many of us settle for "second best", and hope we don't exceed what's "justifiable", or mistakenly injure anyone.

Either way there's some risk. And each situation is bound to have some unique aspects to consider.

I've found in some cases that rebuking/speaking of God and His Judgments with strong conviction, tends to scare folks away better than loaded firearms !

And I've also seen where showing humility and kindness did miraculously disarm hostility.

Yet, I still keep a few guns around; but haven't shot any in years.

wm

Writing of civil authorities Paul:
...for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. (Romans 13:4)

Per this verse, seems to me being a policeman or military is a calling in which violence is ordained by God. (Of course this calling may be abused. And sadly it is.)

I got this from a site
In the New Testament, Jesus marveled when a Roman centurion (an officer in charge of one hundred soldiers) approached Him. The centurion&#8217;s response to Jesus indicated his clear understanding of authority, as well as his faith in Jesus (Matthew 8:5-13). Jesus did not denounce his career. Many centurions mentioned in the New Testament are praised as Christians, God-fearers, and men of good character (Matthew 8:5; 27:54; Mark 15:39-45; Luke 7:2; 23:47; Acts 10:1; 21:32; 28:16).

Have to realize that military is not all about killing, it is also about peace keeping and nation buidling. There are a lot of military operation other than war that take place (MOOTW). For most people it is not killing becuase they want to, it is out of necessity of protecting innocent and changeing that regime. Al-qaeda has made a direct threat towards Americans and westerners (including innocents) as a religious duty to kill in several outlined Fatwas from Osama bin Laden. This was well before 9/11 and the war on terror took place. I dont think it is the individual good intentioned soldier that needs to worry about his place with god.

candle glow said:

Again, we are forced to rely on any quote except what Jesus himself is recorded as having said...


but okay just going by what you've said here...

Military killing enemies is ordained by God because Paul said that God will take revenge on those whom he desires to take revenge on?

Can you see ANY discrepancy here? (hint, there really is a big discrepancy).

Is the Christian response to kill our enemies?

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First, God does not take revenge, but he does avenge.

Second, you 'll need to state clearly the discrepancy in that I don't see it.

Here's my take on this difficult issue.

I think scripture is clear that God has given governments the sword. So the military and police are not objectively wrong per se, I think God gave them permission to exist and use violence because an armed state is ultimately a lesser evil than anarchy, due to the corrupted nature of human beings, especially left to their own devices without a central authority.

Now all that being said, I am convinced that as Christians we are called to be nonviolent in every possible circumstance. If we are witnessing, for example, a child being brutalized then the love of Christ would, in my understanding, compel us to stop this by any means necessary. To just let it happen would be unloving.

However, I don't believe Christians should participate in the military or other armed institutions. I don't want to offend when I say this, but I think Jesus was clear that we as his followers are not to behave violently toward our enemies, which is what military service entails.

"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy; But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those whose persecute you, so that you may be children of your Father in heaven..." - Matt. 5, 43-46

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There are of course many other passages where Jesus appears to teach nonviolence and I will not go over them as I'm sure we are all familiar with them. I don't see how you can love your enemies and kill them too. If we are to not resist evil persons, to love even the worst enemy as ourselves, to pray for those who persecute us, and are called to be peacemakers, how can we make a career out of violence?

This is not to condemn those who have been or are in the military, and I might be wrong here, but my strong feeling is this; though God has permitted the existence of the state and of the military, we, as Christians, should abstain from such a path, so as to fulfill the commands of our lord.

The state and the military are very worldly things, and we are called to be separate from the world. I think we out to leave the madness of this world to those who are of this world, and are to practice love and nonviolence in all circumstances so long as this is possible.

A certain missionary couple John and Eloise Bergen(in Kenya were brutally attacked and the wife(65yrs. old) was severally beaten and gang raped-- the husband(70 yrs. old) nearly died due to his extensive wounds from the machetes the attackers used on him.

The wife said that she prayed that God would help her get free from the attackers.
(She was having a bath when the men came into the home and beat/raped her--her husband was outside...they had security guards....unbeknownst to the Bergens' at the time, their security men were in on the planned attack.

The man and his wife were attacked at the same time by the men...I believe there were 5 attackers (possibly more.)

The woman was able to get herself and her husband to a hospital despite her injuries.

Their attackers were caught and the man and his wife later visited them in prison-- gave them full forgiveness; however, the men still had to go to court and the missionary couple gave testimonies that the men savagely attacked them with machetes and the wife was repeatedly raped--the men went to prison and many of
them got saved.

Forgiveness in the face of Terror (a book written by John and Eloise Bergen.)