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The value of prayer
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<blockquote data-quote="EpicScore" data-source="post: 71859971" data-attributes="member: 402102"><p>Well, I suppose we can agree to disagree here, as I have already pointed out that both views are biased either way. A person who is a believer is inclined to perceive that an answer to the prayer is a divine intervention, while the non-believer would prefer to see that exact same occurrence as a coincidence. As it stands, both views can't really be empirically proven and "coincidence" is not a measurable data-point. </p><p></p><p>Skeptics have long tried to rationalize Old Testament miracles such as the parting of the Red Sea or the destruction of the Walls of Jericho using scientific evidences to disprove miracles or the supernatural, but believers would maintain that the fact that God is able to use natural laws to achieve His purpose wouldn't discount His involvement considering that He is the one who created those natural order to begin with. The Christian view of God is that He is both trancendent and immanent to the universe, which means that He does not always have to use spectacular displays of power, but could also use mundane means to achieve certain purposes. </p><p></p><p>The most prominent example of this is perhaps the Book of Esther, whose canonicity has been disputed by some Christian scholars due to its lack of explicit mention of God. The story is about a young, beautiful Jewish woman (the titular Esther) who married the king of Persia and was crowned queen. She later uses her position to deliver the Jews from the "racial cleansing" plot instigated by Hamman. Though God's presence is not visible, as it is in the other OT books, the account of the story makes it clear that His purposeful providence is what gave way to Esther's rise as queen and her eventual role as the saviour of her people, as Mordecai states to drive Esther into taking action, "If you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance for the Jews will arise from another place, but you and your father’s family will perish. And who knows but that you have come to your royal position for such a time as this?" (Esther 4:14)</p><p></p><p>It is worth noting that before Esther did anything to try to help the people, she commanded a three day fast, which is primarily meant to show a dependence to the divine or a plea for divine intervention, and is typically practiced in accompaniment for intercessory prayer. The subsequent events is really mundane, and probably something one could reasonably expect to happen without the prayer. But the writing takes it for granted that Esther's eventual success was due to God, and there is any evidence that the same outcome would happen had Esther not prayed is speculative at best.</p><p></p><p>You ask for statistical evidence, but not only is the accurate data almost impossible to collect (due to the presuppositional bias I mentioned above), the sort of evidence you ask for doesn't align to what most evangelical Christians believe about the meaning and purpose of prayer. Saying that the effectiveness of prayer can only be proven if the content of the prayer gets fulfilled goes against what has already been said in previous posts about God not being obligated to say "yes" to every prayer request. He could say "no" if He decides that what is asked for isn't good for the person in the long run, or deliberately withhold the "yes" due to the request being made in a beligerent/disrespectful/begrudging manner (my parents often does that--they'd say "no" in response to a bad attitude but are perfectly willing to say "yes" once I say it nicely). In terms of result, I suppose the quality of a fellowship between family/friends/loved ones would depend more on how much the relationship is deepened and/or strengthened through the activity, and less about the quality of the entertainment, food, etc. the party had during their time together. </p><p></p><p>I mentioned the Bible because I think the perception of prayer have been coloured by name-it-and-claim-it, health/wealth gospel preacher who says that as long as you believe it hard enough, God would grant whatever you desire, that your life would be easy, etc. even though the principles of the Scriptures teaches no such thing. Indeed, most orthodox Christians, and the Bible itself, would condemn people who, for their own benefits, twist the Biblical passages to tell people what they might prefer to hear and proclaim a message that the Scriptures itself never intended to teach, as heretical or even satanic, even though they may be known to the rest of the world as Christians. What I'm saying is that trying to map external phenomenon into fixed statistics is essentially meaningless because God is more concerned with the heart (<a href="https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/1-Chronicles/28/9" target="_blank">1 Chronicles 28:9</a>, <a href="https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/Proverbs/16/2" target="_blank">Proverbs 16:2</a>, <a href="https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/Jeremiah/17/10" target="_blank">Jeremiah 17:10</a>), but I digress.</p><p></p><p>All in all, prayer is inseparable from a belief in God, or deities, to which the prayer is offered. One's perception of prayer is fundamentally rooted in how one views and relates to God. Is "God" a man-made figment of imagination whose purpose is to serve man's desires, or are man God-created beings made to "glorify God and enjoy Him forever"?</p><p></p><p>Perhaps my lengthy posts will not satisfy all the questions you have about prayer life and God in general, but I hope it has given you some additional perspective towards those topics. I do apologise if I may have made insensitive, ignorant or offensive remarks throughout this discussion.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="EpicScore, post: 71859971, member: 402102"] Well, I suppose we can agree to disagree here, as I have already pointed out that both views are biased either way. A person who is a believer is inclined to perceive that an answer to the prayer is a divine intervention, while the non-believer would prefer to see that exact same occurrence as a coincidence. As it stands, both views can't really be empirically proven and "coincidence" is not a measurable data-point. Skeptics have long tried to rationalize Old Testament miracles such as the parting of the Red Sea or the destruction of the Walls of Jericho using scientific evidences to disprove miracles or the supernatural, but believers would maintain that the fact that God is able to use natural laws to achieve His purpose wouldn't discount His involvement considering that He is the one who created those natural order to begin with. The Christian view of God is that He is both trancendent and immanent to the universe, which means that He does not always have to use spectacular displays of power, but could also use mundane means to achieve certain purposes. The most prominent example of this is perhaps the Book of Esther, whose canonicity has been disputed by some Christian scholars due to its lack of explicit mention of God. The story is about a young, beautiful Jewish woman (the titular Esther) who married the king of Persia and was crowned queen. She later uses her position to deliver the Jews from the "racial cleansing" plot instigated by Hamman. Though God's presence is not visible, as it is in the other OT books, the account of the story makes it clear that His purposeful providence is what gave way to Esther's rise as queen and her eventual role as the saviour of her people, as Mordecai states to drive Esther into taking action, "If you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance for the Jews will arise from another place, but you and your father’s family will perish. And who knows but that you have come to your royal position for such a time as this?" (Esther 4:14) It is worth noting that before Esther did anything to try to help the people, she commanded a three day fast, which is primarily meant to show a dependence to the divine or a plea for divine intervention, and is typically practiced in accompaniment for intercessory prayer. The subsequent events is really mundane, and probably something one could reasonably expect to happen without the prayer. But the writing takes it for granted that Esther's eventual success was due to God, and there is any evidence that the same outcome would happen had Esther not prayed is speculative at best. You ask for statistical evidence, but not only is the accurate data almost impossible to collect (due to the presuppositional bias I mentioned above), the sort of evidence you ask for doesn't align to what most evangelical Christians believe about the meaning and purpose of prayer. Saying that the effectiveness of prayer can only be proven if the content of the prayer gets fulfilled goes against what has already been said in previous posts about God not being obligated to say "yes" to every prayer request. He could say "no" if He decides that what is asked for isn't good for the person in the long run, or deliberately withhold the "yes" due to the request being made in a beligerent/disrespectful/begrudging manner (my parents often does that--they'd say "no" in response to a bad attitude but are perfectly willing to say "yes" once I say it nicely). In terms of result, I suppose the quality of a fellowship between family/friends/loved ones would depend more on how much the relationship is deepened and/or strengthened through the activity, and less about the quality of the entertainment, food, etc. the party had during their time together. I mentioned the Bible because I think the perception of prayer have been coloured by name-it-and-claim-it, health/wealth gospel preacher who says that as long as you believe it hard enough, God would grant whatever you desire, that your life would be easy, etc. even though the principles of the Scriptures teaches no such thing. Indeed, most orthodox Christians, and the Bible itself, would condemn people who, for their own benefits, twist the Biblical passages to tell people what they might prefer to hear and proclaim a message that the Scriptures itself never intended to teach, as heretical or even satanic, even though they may be known to the rest of the world as Christians. What I'm saying is that trying to map external phenomenon into fixed statistics is essentially meaningless because God is more concerned with the heart ([URL='https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/1-Chronicles/28/9']1 Chronicles 28:9[/URL], [URL='https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/Proverbs/16/2']Proverbs 16:2[/URL], [URL='https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/Jeremiah/17/10']Jeremiah 17:10[/URL]), but I digress. All in all, prayer is inseparable from a belief in God, or deities, to which the prayer is offered. One's perception of prayer is fundamentally rooted in how one views and relates to God. Is "God" a man-made figment of imagination whose purpose is to serve man's desires, or are man God-created beings made to "glorify God and enjoy Him forever"? Perhaps my lengthy posts will not satisfy all the questions you have about prayer life and God in general, but I hope it has given you some additional perspective towards those topics. I do apologise if I may have made insensitive, ignorant or offensive remarks throughout this discussion. [/QUOTE]
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