The useless (?) tree of life (moved)

LittleLambofJesus · Jul 11, 2008

KCDAD said:
BRAVO! Here we have the one of the main reasons I call myself a Follower of Jesus or a Follower of the Way rather than a Christian. To call one's self a Christian really means you follow Paul, not Jesus.

Hi there. I am little confuse on that. Peter seemed to deem Paul inspired and a pretty important fellow enough to listen to, so do you believe Paul was a True Apostle of Jesus or not?

The Jewish/Hebrew book of Revelation shows those who fail to heed to both the Messages of Jesus and Paul.Just curious.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

2 Peter 3:16 As also/and in all the letters, speaking in them about these-things; in which are difficult to understand any which the un-learned and un-steadfast are wresting/twisting as also the rest of Writings, toward the own of them destruction/apwleian <684>. [# 684 used reve 17:8, 11]

Reve 17:8 The wild beast which you perceived was, and not is, and is being about to be ascending out of the abyss, and into destruction/apwleian <684> it is going away.

KCDAD · Jul 11, 2008

LittleLambofJesus said:
Umm correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't it JESUS that talked about hellfire and not Paul or, am I misreading you here. Paul never mentioned it that I know of.

Jesus spoke of Gehenna, Paul talked about Hades.

KCDAD · Jul 11, 2008

LittleLambofJesus said:
I had heard a little while back the Admins haven't got that working yet. Is it working now?

I forgot where that option is LOL

I just looked for it and couldn't find it.

LittleLambofJesus · Jul 11, 2008

KCDAD said:
Jesus spoke of Gehenna, Paul talked about Hades.

Paul appears to put a slightly different spin on Hosea 13:14, where he mentions death but not "sheol". Never noticed that until now.

Hosea 13:14 "From hand of sh@'owl I shall rescue them; from Death I shall Redeem them. Where plagues of you Death?. Where sting of you sh@'owl? Regret shall be hidden from My eyes."

1 Coring 15:54 But, whensoever, this mortal, shall clothe itself with immortality, then, shall be brought to pass the saying that is written--Death hath been swallowed up, victoriously; 55 Where, O death, is thy victory? Where, O death, is thy sting? 56 Now the sting of death the sin, the yet power of the sin the law;--[Hosea 13:14]

Isaiah 28:18 And-shall-be-atoned/kaphar, Covenant-of-you with Death, and-seer with Sh@'owl ,

God-free · Jul 11, 2008

KCDAD said:
Exactly! Well put, If there be any untruth in anything, all of it is false. So you disregard all newspaper articles, all books, all teachers, all advice from any friends.... That's it. You found the secret of life!

If newspaper articles, modern books, teachers, and friends provide questionable information then I can do my own research to find out whether or not I should accept or disregard it. There is no way to research or investigate a story written hundreds of centuries ago. All I can do is use my own reasoning skills and common sense to determine what, if any, truth the story imparts.

KCDAD said:
Sin is not bad, it is normal. Why was it so easy for Jesus to say "your sin is forgiven"? Because sin meant nothing to him. He was talking about their guilt and shame they had been carrying around their whole lives.

You got serious problems that are completely curable... you are not bad, you are human.

Who are you trying to convince, with all this, anyway: me or yourself?

Sin (being the transgression of divine law) isn't considered bad among Christians anymore? I didn't realize the rules had changed so much since I 'left the fold.' Jesus thought himself to be, and convinced others he was, the son of God. Why wouldn't he go around forgiving the sins of gullible, guilt-ridden people? It's a great PR tactic.

Please, enlighten me about my 'serious problems.' Cure me if you can.

I'm just voicing my thoughts on the subject matter. Whether or not my opinions will make a difference to anyone else is not for me to say.

KCDAD said:
So... take it up with Paul, not Jesus. Jesus never said anything like that.

When Paul or Jesus post a comment directed at me, on this forum or any other, then I'll eagerly take it up with them.

KCDAD said:
The original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek versions...and several English translations... and you?

Are you suggesting that God doesn't inflict horrific punishments on anyone in those versions?? He certainly does in the KJV and NEV that I possess.

~Barbara

LittleLambofJesus · Jul 11, 2008

Are you suggesting that God doesn't inflict horrific punishments on anyone in those versions?? He certainly does in the KJV and NEV that I possess.

~Barbara

Greetings Barbara. Can ya throw a few of dem thar verses at me? Just want to peruse them. Thanks.

KCDAD · Jul 11, 2008

God-free;47802811
Sin (being the transgression of divine law) isn't considered bad among Christians anymore? I didn't realize the rules had changed so much since I 'left the fold.' Jesus thought himself to be, and convinced others he was, the son of God. Why wouldn't he go around forgiving the sins of gullible, guilt-ridden people? It's a great PR tactic.

That is not a Biblical definition of sin. It is doctrinal definition. Jesus called himself Son of Man.

Please, enlighten me about my 'serious problems.' Cure me if you can.

You are human. As are we all. We are all going to die from that condition... it is fatal.

Are you suggesting that God doesn't inflict horrific punishments on anyone in those versions?? He certainly does in the KJV and NEV that I possess.

I am suggesting the people blame of credit God for their own actions and consequences... I can claim God is writing this post... why would you think it were so?

God-free · Jul 11, 2008

LittleLambofJesus said:
Greetings Barbara. Can ya throw a few of dem thar verses at me? Just want to peruse them. Thanks.

Just off the top of my head... Does the story of the destruction of Soddom and Gomorrah ring any bells?

~Barbara

LittleLambofJesus · Jul 11, 2008

God-free said:
Just off the top of my head... Does the story of the destruction of Soddom and Gomorrah ring any bells?

~Barbara

Yep. In fact, it is mentioned in one verse in the Jewish/Hebrew book of Revelation. I have a fairly large study on this.

Matthew 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Matthew 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

Matthew 11:24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies upon the broad-place of the city, the great, which-any being spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, where also/even their Lord was crucified.

God-free · Jul 11, 2008

KCDAD said:
That is not a Biblical definition of sin. It is doctrinal definition. Jesus called himself Son of Man.

If Jesus wasn't the son of God, then he had no power to forgive sins.

KCDAD said:
You are human. As are we all. We are all going to die from that condition... it is fatal.

I don't consider being human a serious problem. You said my serious problems were curable. Now they are fatal?

KCDAD said:
I am suggesting the people blame of credit God for their own actions and consequences...

I don't.

I can claim God is writing this post...

You could.

why would you think it were so?

I wouldn't.

~Barbara

KCDAD · Jul 12, 2008

God-free;47803011If Jesus wasn't the son of God, then he had no power to forgive sins.

Nonsense. Anyone can forgive sin.

I wouldn't.

Yet you argue that God did what the Hebrews claim he did...

God-free · Jul 12, 2008

KCDAD said:
Nonsense. Anyone can forgive sin.

When someone sins against me, I have the option to forgive the sinner if I want to.

When someone sins against someone (not me), it's not my place to forgive the sinner.

If Jesus was not the son of God (or God in human form), then he had no power to forgive sins not commited against him personally.

KCDAD said:
Yet you argue that God did what the Hebrews claim he did...

Huh? Superman saved Lois Lane from certain death repeatedly. I don't argue that either Superman or Lois Lane are real, or that this actually happened. I'm simply stating what has been written down, and eventually cinematized. Get my parable?

~Barbara

LittleLambofJesus · Jul 12, 2008

God-free said:
When someone sins against me, I have the option to forgive the sinner if I want to.

When someone sins against someone (not me), it's not my place to forgive the sinner.

If Jesus was not the son of God (or God in human form), then he had no power to forgive sins not commited against him personally.................

~Barbara

But He was the Son of the God. It says so right here: . Who is saying he wasn't?

Matthew 17:5 Still of-Him speaking, behold! a cloud, luminous, upon-shadows them. And behold!, a voice out of the cloud, saying, `This is the Son of Me, the Beloved, in whom I delight, be ye hearing Him!".

Revelation 2:18 And to the messenger of the assembly in Thyatira, write! Now this is saying the Son of the GOD/YHWH, the One having the eyes of Him as flame of fire, and the feet of Him as to burnished-brass.

KCDAD · Jul 12, 2008

God-free said:
When someone sins against me, I have the option to forgive the sinner if I want to.

When someone sins against someone (not me), it's not my place to forgive the sinner.

If Jesus was not the son of God (or God in human form), then he had no power to forgive sins not commited against him personally.

Huh? Superman saved Lois Lane from certain death repeatedly. I don't argue that either Superman or Lois Lane are real, or that this actually happened. I'm simply stating what has been written down, and eventually cinematized. Get my parable?

~Barbara

Get it? If you are relating a story, there is no debate. If you arguing that it occurred, <staff edit> , because you just stated they aren't real.

In this case you are juggling apples and oranges...

Sin is NOT something you do. It is not a behavior. You can not forgive what someone does, you can only forgive the motivation, the intent or the attitude that created that behavior.
Think about it: when someone accidentally does something to hurt you, and they say "I am so sorry, I was trying to do ________(whatever), please forgive me"... what do you say? "Ahhh that's ok, there is nothing to forgive." Of course there isn't. You recognize that what they DID was not what was INTENDED by them to DO. you may go on to say something to the effect of be careful next time or don't try so hard... it is the not THINGS WE DO that is sin, but THINGS WE THINK AND FEEL.

We are human, we are created with thoughts and feelings, we learn behaviors. We are not morally responsible for out thoughts and feelings, morality is a social issue. We are morally responsible for our actions as they effect other people. Spiritually we are survivors, and there for self-interested. It is this self-interest that we are born with that is our "original sin", our original intent and motivation... feed me, warm me, wipe my buttocks, me me me me me...

So... I can, in my dealings with other people, recognize their human nature, their original "sin" or motivation and forgive them when they exercize it, or not... in fact, to maintain my own sanity, I must deal with that issue one way or the other. By forgiving others their "sin" I recognize my own "sin" and am able to forgive myself and accept forgiveness from others.

In The Lord's Prayer, Jesus teaches the disciples to pray to God, their Father, "You forgive us our sin in just the same way as we forgive those who sin against us."

God-free · Jul 12, 2008

KCDAD said:
Get it? If you are relating a story, there is no debate. If you arguing that it occurred, <staff edit> , because you just stated they aren't real.

The writers of the Bible related stories that have been sparking debates since day one. Are all of those debaters idiots, or just the ones who recognize that the stories aren't real? Your house is made of glass. Be careful when throwing stones.

KCDAD said:
In this case you are juggling apples and oranges...

Sin is NOT something you do.

It can be.

KCDAD said:
It is not a behavior.

It can be.

KCDAD said:
You can not forgive what someone does,

Of course, I can.

KCDAD said:
you can only forgive the motivation, the intent or the attitude that created that behavior.

I can do that too.

KCDAD said:
Think about it: when someone accidentally does something to hurt you, and they say "I am so sorry, I was trying to do ________(whatever), please forgive me"... what do you say? "Ahhh that's ok, there is nothing to forgive." Of course there isn't. You recognize that what they DID was not what was INTENDED by them to DO. you may go on to say something to the effect of be careful next time or don't try so hard...

I agree.

KCDAD said:
it is the not THINGS WE DO that is sin, but THINGS WE THINK AND FEEL.

I disagree. No need to shout.

KCDAD said:
We are human, we are created with thoughts and feelings, we learn behaviors. We are not morally responsible for out thoughts and feelings, morality is a social issue. We are morally responsible for our actions as they effect other people. Spiritually we are survivors, and there for self-interested. It is this self-interest that we are born with that is our "original sin", our original intent and motivation... feed me, warm me, wipe my buttocks, me me me me me...

Didn't we already discuss this? I simply cannot accept that thought or self-interest is sinful. It's absurd. Particularly absurd is the sentence I've bolded. We are born helpless, unable to fend for ourselves. I'm amazed that anyone can think that the needs of a baby are sinful.

~Barbara

~Wisdom Seeker~ · Jul 12, 2008

KCDAD said:
Who let the other animals into the tree?

Thank you for addressing my post. But, your counterpoint is unintelligible.

~Wisdom Seeker~ · Jul 12, 2008

Miracle Storm said:
How do you choose which parts of the bible are true and what parts are not?

adam was he the first man...eve was she created from his rib..Is heaven really heaven..is hell really hell..is jesus really the son of god...was mary truly a virgin...what about satan..the resurrection...ascension into heaven..

there is a reason christians do not agree... I wonder if it is because the "holy spirit" gives people such 'discernments' to view something as simple as trees and fruit as figurative of something much bigger and deeper meaning...

I also wonder why in the bible a tree can't just be a tree and a fruit a fruit..
I'm just sayin'

I don't.

That is your interpretation.

It may seem simple to you, because that is how you need it to be, to be able to wrap your mind around it.

I didn't say it wasn't. I said I believe the meaning is deeper than that.

Question...do you explain the theory of relativity to a two year old using scientific language? Or do you start with something a little easier for them to understand?

Don't get mad at me. I'm just posting what I think. If you think a tree is just a tree... that's your prerogative. I just don't happen to be at that level of understanding at this point in my life.

~Wisdom Seeker~ · Jul 12, 2008

Washington said:
Interesting belief, but one I fail to see any support for.

That may be the difference between you and I.

"Convinced myself, I seek not to convince."
Edgar Allan Poe

KCDAD · Jul 12, 2008

~Wisdom Seeker~ said:
Thank you for addressing my post. But, your counterpoint is unintelligible.

If the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is real... why do other animals have the same sense of sympathy, self recognition, guilt, etc?

Are they sinful and sentenced to the fires of hell, too?

Miracle Storm · Jul 12, 2008

~Wisdom Seeker~ said:
I don't.

That is your interpretation.

It may seem simple to you, because that is how you need it to be, to be able to wrap your mind around it.

I didn't say it wasn't. I said I believe the meaning is deeper than that.

Question...do you explain the theory of relativity to a two year old using scientific language? Or do you start with something a little easier for them to understand?

Don't get mad at me. I'm just posting what I think. If you think a tree is just a tree... that's your prerogative. I just don't happen to be at that level of understanding at this point in my life.

Oh I didn't say it was simple at all..
To wrap my mind around it would be to engulf myself again into a world of fiction and folklore..I don't need that anymore, but it's okay if you do.

If I think a tree is just a tree it is okay?...BUT you are at a deeper level of understanding than that at this point in your life.. Bahahaha

Oh yes..You are deep, deep in something I wouldn't want to step into again.

The useless (?) tree of life (moved)

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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