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The Use of lies and deception in Science

pshun2404

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How then can we know just what is true and what is false anymore? How are we supposed to trust even educators who perpetuate frauds as if they are established facts and allow curriculums that teach intentional misinformation and engineered lies? It can’t happen here? It certainly has been happening here for a very long time.

In 2012, R Grant Steen of Medical Communications Consultants, out of Chapel Hill, NC, pointed out that “Scientific papers are retracted for many reasons including fraud (data fabrication or falsification) or error (plagiarism, scientific mistake, ethical problems). Growing attention to fraud in the lay press suggests that the incidence of fraud is increasing.”

So in fact, cases of scientific fraud are increasing not decreasing. Allegedly there were 8 times as many fraudulent presentations discovered and retracted in 2009 than in 2006. This means that as more of these frauds are being exposed (by other more honest scientists I might add), the greater the fervency to commit more seems to be occurring. In other words, some scientists are intentionally determined to do whatever is necessary to convince, shape, and engineer, public and professional opinion that they will even lie and misrepresent data.

In an article I read from the National Institute of Health, we receive this report (EMBO Rep. 2007 January; 8(1):1). “Fraud in our laboratories?”, by Frank Gannon, informs us that “With depressing regularity, the media continue to uncover cases of scientific fraud...although the scientific community regards publicized cases of fraudulent behavior as exceptional and deviant from accepted scientific standards—fraud is an inevitable component of today's research.”

So how many “finds” and “determinations” believed in today, are actually the result of some these spurious interpretations, fudged statistics, and/or doctored data? How many were drawn in by and made to see through the lens of Heackel’s lies? How many more have escaped notice and now plague the “convinced” modern mind? More than have been caught I assure you. Gannon states these people are not above disregarding, and not reporting, data that is contrary to their own alleged conclusions. How many or which ones can we or should we consider factual beyond a reasonable doubt?

In another article you will never find on “some Creationist website” titled, “Scientific fraud and the power structure of science” (Prometheus, Vol. 10, No. 1, June 1992, pp. 83-98), author Brian Martin tells us, “One of the most common misrepresentations in scientific work is the scientific paper itself (see P. B. Medawar, 'Is the scientific paper fraudulent? Yes; it misrepresents scientific thought', Saturday Review, 1 August 1964, pp. 42-43). Martin tells us, “It presents a mythical reconstruction of what actually happened. All of what are in retrospect mistaken ideas, badly designed experiments, and incorrect calculations are omitted. The paper presents the research as if it had been carefully thought out, planned and executed according to a neat, rigorous process, for example involving testing of a hypothesis. The misrepresentation of the scientific paper is the most formal aspect of the misrepresentation of science as an orderly process based on a clearly defined method” (see John A. Schuster and Richard R. Yeo, The Politics and Rhetoric of Scientific Method: Historical Studies, Reidel, Dordrecht, 1986). So in effect, many scientists do not publish all the raw data…or report those procedures inappropriately done, this process can be called cooking, trimming, fiddling, fudging or forging the data. This means that when this occurs the story you are being told (that the press goes crazy with), that textbooks may represent as established facts, are in fact hogwash…but yet we believe them all unquestionably as students.

Apparently this is becoming even more of a problem in our time. Fortunately those who do this do not represent the attitude and behavior of all scientists today, and many in fact are the very reason these frauds have been exposed but alas that does not excuse those who have pushed these ideas in the classrooms and though the Media. How many do we need to uncover before we can say it is with intent in many cases?

Take for example Richard Leaky’s “Heidelberg Man”, This was the one in the public school textbooks who’s image was made to look most like an ape. In reality it was nothing more than a racist fraud. The image in our texts was entirely intuited (imagined, made-up) and artistically contrived from a lower jawbone that was found in Hiedelburg, Germany, that had been deceitfully pieced together with two teeth and a leg bone found in Boxgrove, England (thus not even related), and then finally, to give it what these neo-Darwinain racists consider “more of a monkey look”, they added the skull bone of man found in Bodo, Ethiopia (see how subtly racist these intellectual totalitarians are? They intentionally use skull of an African man because they thought it looked ape-like.)! Leaky did this with full knowledge of his intentional deceit, but the pursuit of their agenda is not only relentless, but to them entirely justifiable.

Still today many textbooks speak highly of Heidelburg Man as an example of proof for Darwin’s theory. Have they no shame? No, it is not that! It is just that they know…that you do not know, and they have carefully guarded your finding out. The contrived images are an important part of their propaganda plan (one picture being worth 1,000 words, especially when imprinted over and over). IMO they utterly lack the intellectual integrity necessary to be considered real scientists, but yet Leaky and his team were revered as scientific heroes.

Many honest scientists at the time conceded the jawbone of Heidelburg Man to be quite human and well within the dimensional norm considered modern. All of the alleged and intuited topical characteristics (the hunched back, spinal curve, low forehead, thick lips, excessive hair, etc.), that had been impressed on generations of young inquiring minds, has been determined to be quite impossible to know! With Hiedelburg man, that which was actually human is labeled as ape-like because of an imported and unrelated Ethiopian skull which came from a man. These pieces from England didn’t even belong, yet for decades this was presented as a single find, and textbooks claimed this mix match of unrelated fossils a new sub-species called Homo-Heidelbergenesis. How deceitful….

Any thoughts?

Paul
 

pshun2404

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Here's a good one...

The True Peppered Moth Hypothesis​

“In the rare probability of the absence of normal foods for particular birds, and if these moths in the natural white phase of their consistently unchanged DNA are unnaturally glued or pinned to a darker tree bark by an outside intelligent force, and their darker counterparts are left free to fly and escape at will, the lighter colored, intentionally glued, or securely attached moths, will have a lesser chance of survival, and may be eaten by certain types of hungry birds, thus proving the necessity for intelligent deceit, and willful outside intelligent intervention to enhance an already unnatural selection, or at least, in order to produce the illusion of a natural selection, to the gullible minds of innocent trusting school children without their or their parent’s consent“!

Now that is the truth...the peppered moth fraud proved intelligent design from those who lack intellectual integrity...yet it was presented to convince innocent inquiring minds of something it was not...and obviously their propaganda technique worked since so many are still convinced.

Paul
 
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troodon

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Take for example Richard Leaky’s “Heidelberg Man”, This was the one in the public school textbooks who’s image was made to look most like an ape. In reality it was nothing more than a racist fraud. The image in our texts was entirely intuited (imagined, made-up) and artistically contrived from a lower jawbone that was found in Hiedelburg, Germany, that had been deceitfully pieced together with two teeth and a leg bone found in Boxgrove, England (thus not even related), and then finally, to give it what these neo-Darwinain racists consider “more of a monkey look”, they added the skull bone of man found in Bodo, Ethiopia (see how subtly racist these intellectual totalitarians are? They intentionally use skull of an African man because they thought it looked ape-like.)! Leaky did this with full knowledge of his intentional deceit, but the pursuit of their agenda is not only relentless, but to them entirely justifiable.
From what I can gather the first skull was found in Germany in 1933. The Ethiopian skull was found in the 70s and tentatively assigned to H. heidelbergensis (they aren't sure it's a distinct species and, tbh, I'm not either. Physical anthropologists are nutjobs when it comes to taxonomy and phylogeny). So it sounds like if these scientists are racist against anyone it's Germans. Now personally I don't have a problem with that, I'm racist against Germans, but I don't think that's the point you were trying to make. Skulls in Spain have also been assigned to the species but, I don't know, the Spanish have never bothered me much. Certainly not as much as those wretched Germans :mad:

It presents a mythical reconstruction of what actually happened. All of what are in retrospect mistaken ideas, badly designed experiments, and incorrect calculations are omitted. The paper presents the research as if it had been carefully thought out, planned and executed according to a neat, rigorous process, for example involving testing of a hypothesis. The misrepresentation of the scientific paper is the most formal aspect of the misrepresentation of science as an orderly process based on a clearly defined method
I don't see what the problem is supposed to be here. At this point I only have one published paper, but for the research I conducted for that paper I ended up reaching a conclusion that was 180 degrees from the conclusion that I was expecting. There was no reason for me to mention that in the publication, it doesn't matter. The data stand on their own. Actually, the fact that I got results that were the opposite of what I was expecting speak to the strength of the conclusions I drew from my data, because they were obviously capable of overcoming whatever prejudices I entered the project with.
 
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pshun2404

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Physical anthropologists are nutjobs when it comes to taxonomy and phylogeny.

That's really ripe! So does ontology recapitulate phylogeny or not? Was Ernst correct or a liar who intentionally distorted reality to promote the theory? Were these really gills, or just fat folds? I though we got our O2 though the umbilical cord? Am I incorrect here as well?

And wasn't the actual jawbone found by a Physical Anthropologist named Dr. Schoetensack? Oh that's right he's a nutjob. And did you know the original casts and drawings were inspired by him? But if he is such a nutjob, why did Leaky (not even a scientist) follow after him? And the Heidelberg Man I am referring to is presented in "The First Europeans", National Geographic, July 1997, page 108 and is a contrived composite based on the Boxgrove find, the Heidelberg jaw, and the Bodo Ethiopian skull (a true frankenstein) and is passed off in the article as our probable ancestor. so I take it not only are Physical anthropologists nutjobs, but now I guess National Geographic was giving us false information? Hmmm? I will stick with these and you stick to the excuse made later as a response. I believe the non-scientist R. Leaky knew he was promoting a fraud when he combined these finds and called them one being. You can believe what you wish.

Paul
 
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pshun2404

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One out of every 10,000 scientific papers is retracted. Even if the actual rate of fraud is ten times that, how exactly does this cast doubt on the bulk of scientific results?

It does not and I love science and defend science but take a look at what I do not support...

Here are some dates for just the Boxgrove bones…

Racemization = 400,000 years

Thermoluminescence = 175,000-230,000 years

Electron-spin resonance = 205,000-281,000

Aminostratigraphy with marine species = 303,000-524,000 years

The uranium series differed even from these…

So what do we get in school and sites like talk origins? The line of best guess. which MAY BE true but don't claim it is...just tell the truth...these finds are not related but each is exciting...but don't just fit together these unrelated finds and create a frankenstein to brainwash people with and then when people question the factualness of the published alleged conclusions they're the nutjobs? I don't think so...

So also with the Heidelberg jaw which originally was dated to 700,000 years for decades and later re-determined to 350,000 years...still older than the consensus dating for the Boxgrove find but chosen to be closer IMO so it could fit the theory…( a sad practice more common than admitted)...

And the Steinhem skull you inferred is judged by many to be quite Sapien and only dates to about 250,000 years, while the Bodo skull dates to 600,000 (older than them all) years and only since Leaky has been assigned to Heidelbergenesis and was previously classified as Erectus with Sapien qualities (but the neo-Darwinians could not have that) but put them together and add a little media and a bombardment of neo-Darwinians declaring their perspective in a whole slew of articles and viola…

You see, I think this quote from Joseph Goebbels, Hitler’s propaganda Minister applies here but to the public presentation of the science rather than to politics. They jimmied the data to fit the theory rather than just letting the data dictate the theory. At any rate Goebbels said, “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.” That is what happened here for sure...and even after people are told what I have just revealed they will hold to the impressed fabrication and lump me in with the nutjobs (Hallelujah I am in such good company).

Paul
 
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sfs

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It does not and I love science and defend science but take a look at what I do not support...
So the bit about not being able to trust science because of fraudulent reports was just noise?

Here are some dates for just the Boxgrove bones…

Racemization = 400,000 years

Thermoluminescence = 175,000-230,000 years

Electron-spin resonance = 205,000-281,000

Aminostratigraphy with marine species = 303,000-524,000 years

The uranium series differed even from these…

So what do we get in school and sites like talk origins? The line of best guess. which MAY BE true but don't claim it is...just tell the truth...these finds are not related but each is exciting...but don't just fit together these unrelated finds and create a frankenstein to brainwash people with and then when people question the factualness of the published alleged conclusions they're the nutjobs? I don't think so...

So also with the Heidelberg jaw which originally was dated to 700,000 years for decades and later re-determined to 350,000 years...still older than the consensus dating for the Boxgrove find but chosen to be closer IMO so it could fit the theory…( a sad practice more common than admitted)...

And the Steinhem skull you inferred is judged by many to be quite Sapien and only dates to about 250,000 years, while the Bodo skull dates to 600,000 (older than them all) years and only since Leaky has been assigned to Heidelbergenesis and was previously classified as Erectus with Sapien qualities (but the neo-Darwinians could not have that) but put them together and add a little media and a bombardment of neo-Darwinians declaring their perspective in a whole slew of articles and viola…

You see, I think this quote from Joseph Goebbels, Hitler’s propaganda Minister applies here but to the public presentation of the science rather than to politics. They jimmied the data to fit the theory rather than just letting the data dictate the theory. At any rate Goebbels said, “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.” That is what happened here for sure...and even after people are told what I have just revealed they will hold to the impressed fabrication and lump me in with the nutjobs (Hallelujah I am in such good company).

Paul
Ah, so you're publicly accusing a number of specific scientists of fraud. I trust you're an expert in all of these dating techniques. Because I wouldn't want to think you were slandering a bunch of people based purely on hearsay, or because, say, a site was genuinely difficult to date and was reported as such.
 
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troodon

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Physical anthropologists are nutjobs when it comes to taxonomy and phylogeny.

That's really ripe! So does ontology recapitulate phylogeny or not?
To a large degree, yes. Just not to the degree that Haeckel claimed.

And wasn't the actual jawbone found by a Physical Anthropologist named Dr. Schoetensack? Oh that's right he's a nutjob. And did you know the original casts and drawings were inspired by him? But if he is such a nutjob, why did Leaky (not even a scientist) follow after him? And the Heidelberg Man I am referring to is presented in "The First Europeans", National Geographic, July 1997, page 108 and is a contrived composite based on the Boxgrove find, the Heidelberg jaw, and the Bodo Ethiopian skull (a true frankenstein) and is passed off in the article as our probable ancestor. so I take it not only are Physical anthropologists nutjobs, but now I guess National Geographic was giving us false information? Hmmm? I will stick with these and you stick to the excuse made later as a response. I believe the non-scientist R. Leaky knew he was promoting a fraud when he combined these finds and called them one being. You can believe what you wish.
I said they were nutjobs when it comes to taxonomy and phylogeny, as in they over-split their taxa and are overly quick to try to make every new taxon appear to be important to human evolution. Other paleontologists laugh at them because of this.

How is creating a composite based on several specimens misleading? Do you realize that until rather recently paleontologists had never found a skull for Brachiosaurus? Older images you see of that dinosaur (including Jurassic Park) are composites based on Brachiosaurus and a very closely-related genus from Africa. This is necessary given how fragmentary the fossil record is. You almost never find whole specimens, so you have to take pieces multiple specimens of the same taxon, or even from closely-related taxa, and stick them together.
 
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pshun2404

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So the bit about not being able to trust science because of fraudulent reports was just noise?


Ah, so you're publicly accusing a number of specific scientists of fraud. I trust you're an expert in all of these dating techniques. Because I wouldn't want to think you were slandering a bunch of people based purely on hearsay, or because, say, a site was genuinely difficult to date and was reported as such.

No not at all, I did not say that. There are a number of cases where this did take place (like the case I sited) but I do appreciate the scientists who are honest with the data. For another example, If I find a bunch of ape bones almost a football field away from the remains of what looks like stone tools it is shoddy science to conclude this ape's family made or used them when there is no evidence for such a conclusion...but millions have been convinced of Selem have they not? This is what I am referring to. Those geologists who dated the gorge did a great job (alleging approximately 3.5 million years) but the fossils there could have been laid down 2 million years ago or even 1 million, and the connection to the tools is an erroneous conclusion not based in fact (it was assumed).

Paul
 
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pshun2404

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To a large degree, yes. Just not to the degree that Haeckel claimed.

I said they were nutjobs when it comes to taxonomy and phylogeny, as in they over-split their taxa and are overly quick to try to make every new taxon appear to be important to human evolution. Other paleontologists laugh at them because of this.

How is creating a composite based on several specimens misleading? Do you realize that until rather recently paleontologists had never found a skull for Brachiosaurus? Older images you see of that dinosaur (including Jurassic Park) are composites based on Brachiosaurus and a very closely-related genus from Africa. This is necessary given how fragmentary the fossil record is. You almost never find whole specimens, so you have to take pieces multiple specimens of the same taxon, or even from closely-related taxa, and stick them together.

Precisely! Guess work! And besides I thought we had a post-cranial portion in the fossil find of 1883...

Paul
 
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troodon

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PAnd besides I thought we had a post-cranial portion in the fossil find of 1883...
If I may quote wikipedia:

"It was described and recognized as a Brachiosaurus skull in 1998 by Kenneth Carpenter and Virginia Tidwell"

And this isn't deception, it's best guess work. If we used only complete specimens there would be, like, 20 dinosaur genera that ever get drawn or put up in museums.
 
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Metal Minister

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If I may quote wikipedia:

"It was described and recognized as a Brachiosaurus skull in 1998 by Kenneth Carpenter and Virginia Tidwell"

And this isn't deception, it's best guess work. If we used only complete specimens there would be, like, 20 dinosaur genera that ever get drawn or put up in museums.

So then, if I may (blind post) because we wouldn't have enough for museums, we should fabricate things? Or "guess" at what animals MIGHT have looked like and teach it as fact?
 
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troodon

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So then, if I may (blind post) because we wouldn't have enough for museums, we should fabricate things? Or "guess" at what animals MIGHT have looked like and teach it as fact?
It isn't done so that museums have more specimens to put on display, that's just a happy little bonus.

It's done because, most of the time, it's perfectly safe to do.

I find a specimen at site A that has some metacarpals, teeth, a pubis, some vertebrae, and a humerus.

I find a specimen at site B that has a complete skull, some vertebrae, a scapula, and a pubis.

If the overlapping material is sufficiently similar (in this case the pubis and possibly the vertebrae), and if it's from rocks of similar age, then the material from the two sites may be assigned to the same taxon, and if so they may be used to create a composite organism.

This happens all the time in vertebrate paleontology, it's a really fundamental thing for just about all of us (including me even though I don't work with actual specimens). Every case is unique, sometimes people get it wrong (see Brontosaurus/Apatosaurus), and often experts will argue in sequential papers as to whether assignments are correct or incorrect (Rioarribasaurus/Coelophysis is a good example). It isn't done haphazardly, it's done quite deliberately, methodically, and in a fully transparent manner. This isn't a secret held only by experts - any mild enthusiast of paleontology is aware that this is routine.
 
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Metal Minister

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It isn't done so that museums have more specimens to put on display, that's just a happy little bonus.

It's done because, most of the time, it's perfectly safe to do.

I find a specimen at site A that has some metacarpals, teeth, a pubis, some vertebrae, and a humerus.

I find a specimen at site B that has a complete skull, some vertebrae, a scapula, and a pubis.

If the overlapping material is sufficiently similar (in this case the pubis and possibly the vertebrae), and if it's from rocks of similar age, then the material from the two sites may be assigned to the same taxon, and if so they may be used to create a composite organism.

This happens all the time in vertebrate paleontology, it's a really fundamental thing for just about all of us (including me even though I don't work with actual specimens). Every case is unique, sometimes people get it wrong (see Brontosaurus/Apatosaurus), and often experts will argue in sequential papers as to whether assignments are correct or incorrect (Rioarribasaurus/Coelophysis is a good example). It isn't done haphazardly, it's done quite deliberately, methodically, and in a fully transparent manner. This isn't a secret held only by experts - any mild enthusiast of paleontology is aware that this is routine.

But you didn't answer my question. Or perhaps you did in a round about fashion. You're saying that, for all intents and purposes, scientists are "guessing" that fragments of bones go together with other fragments, and then this is later taught to children as fact. I can site times where as little as a couple of teeth were found and immediately attributed to a "missing human/ape link", only to be found to be completely unrelated to humans or apes. You yourself mentioned such a time when bones attributed to one creature are in fact part of another. The most complete T-rex skeleton is only roughly 80%, and yet we've made conclusions based on this that were taught to school children for decades, and only now are those conclusions being challenged. (Such as was T-rex a voracious carnivore, or was he a scavenger.) I guess my point is that if we don't have all the facts (or even bones) why are scientists making wild pronouncements of facts being settled? How do we know we're only missing 20% of that T-rex fossil? Heck it could be closer to complete than they think, or they could have only as much as 50%! ( those stubby arms always looked like they were missing something to me! Lol! JK!) Either way, I just don't think scientists should make pronouncements of hard and fast fact when they themselves admit that they're theories are constantly changing. Say "This is the best answer we have now, but that may change as new information becomes available" not "This is fact, and anyone who says different is either ignorant of science, or is lying!" (Little hat tip to Dawkins there lol) Oh well, I guess I've wasted enough time derailing the thread! I'll step away and let you folks get back to it. God bless! :)
 
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troodon

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You're saying that, for all intents and purposes, scientists are "guessing" that fragments of bones go together with other fragments, and then this is later taught to children as fact.
They use their best judgement to decide what fragments belong to what specimens and what specimens belong to what taxa, of course. How else would we do it?

And why are you concerned about this? Paleontologists create the best reconstructions possible given the data available. I mean, you do realize that no one has ever seen the internal structure of an atom, right? And that it wouldn't actually look like the cartoon atoms we use to teach children. Should children not be taught atomic theory?

You yourself mentioned such a time when bones attributed to one creature are in fact part of another. The most complete T-rex skeleton is only roughly 80%, and yet we've made conclusions based on this that were taught to school children for decades, and only now are those conclusions being challenged. (Such as was T-rex a voracious carnivore, or was he a scavenger.)
I don't see how this situation would be any different if every Tyrannosaurus specimen found was 100% complete. And, by the way, there's, like, one paleontologist on the planet who thinks T-Rex was a dedicated scavenger. He just happens to be a media darling so he gets press.

I guess my point is that if we don't have all the facts (or even bones) why are scientists making wild pronouncements of facts being settled?
Equating long, bladed serrated teeth with carnivory is hardly a "wild pronouncement".

How do we know we're only missing 20% of that T-rex fossil? Heck it could be closer to complete than they think, or they could have only as much as 50%! ( those stubby arms always looked like they were missing something to me! Lol! JK!)
While it is extraordinarily rare for any specimen to be 100% complete if we get enough specimens we can usually put them all together and get virtually the entire skeleton accounted for. Tyrannosauridae, the family to which Tyrannosaurus rex belongs, is very well known from dozens and dozens of specimens on two continents. Between those specimens I'm sure every single bone is accounted for.

Either way, I just don't think scientists should make pronouncements of hard and fast fact when they themselves admit that they're theories are constantly changing.
When it comes to reconstructions or taxon assignments paleontologists are, in my experience, always clear that this is an interpretation that they're presenting. You'll never find a paleontologist say "it's a fact that this animal looked like this", and if they ever assign skeletal material to a taxon they'll explain their reasoning for doing so.
 
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pshun2404

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Right! Guess work...and conveniently it is guessed and completed when necessary in such a way as it always supports the theory instead of letting individual data speak its truth even when (unless made to) it does not necessarily belong.

Its called deception when done intentionally. Nature forbid that a creationist try and pull something like that...there almost instantly would be about 100 pages jumping down their throats and burying what might have been valuable for a reasonable person to consider free of the preconceived conclusions (in the neo-Darwinian camp that is not allowed).

I will repeat my paraphrase of our local social philosopher Donald Crowell...Free thinking is totally allowed, so long as one free thinks the way they free think!

other guesses may well be possible...even best, most reasonable, guesses are not truth...it is still reasonable to doubt...

Paul
 
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troodon

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Right! Guess work...and conveniently it is guessed and completed when necessary in such a way as it always supports the theory instead of letting individual data speak its truth even when (unless made to) it does not necessarily belong.
This process would exist in virtually the same form even if YEC were the prevailing paradigm in the field. Paleontologists would still assign partial material to taxa, the only difference is that no consideration would be given to stratigraphic distribution. Of course taxanomic ranges are obviously dependent on stratigraphy so paleontologists are fully justified in taking that into account.

Its called deception when done intentionally. Nature forbid that a creationist try and pull something like that...there almost instantly would be about 100 pages jumping down their throats and burying what might have been valuable for a reasonable person to consider free of the preconceived conclusions (in the neo-Darwinian camp that is not allowed).
Heaven forbid a creationist interpret the world through their preconceptions? Are you serious? That's all creationists do, they start out with their theory and look for evidence to confirm it. It's backwards from the way science operates.

I will repeat my paraphrase of our local social philosopher Donald Crowell...Free thinking is totally allowed, so long as one free thinks the way they free think!
Creationism is a rather poor example of "free thinking".
 
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pshun2404

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This process would exist in virtually the same form even if YEC were the prevailing paradigm in the field. Paleontologists would still assign partial material to taxa, the only difference is that no consideration would be given to stratigraphic distribution. Of course taxanomic ranges are obviously dependent on stratigraphy so paleontologists are fully justified in taking that into account.

Yes but appearance in strata and then disappearance does not actually mean they no longer existed (as demonstrated by fish and some amphibians). In fact just because we do not find human remains in certain layers does not mean there were no Sapiens…it just means none were fossilized. So if something depends on something which in and of itself is not fully revealing this poses obvious limitations and relies on interpretations of data (which again may or may not be totally accurate) such that ultimate conclusions can be amiss.

Heaven forbid a creationist interpret the world through their preconceptions? Are you serious? That's all creationists do, they start out with their theory and look for evidence to confirm it. It's backwards from the way science operates.

Good point and I agree...I think this is true for many in many areas of opinion and see that this is also (I have many examples) the case of the neo-Darwinian camp (especially of Physical Anthropology and even Paleontology)

Creationism is a rather poor example of "free thinking".

Only in those circles where one is not allowed to vary or hold other theological perspectives. But Crowell was addressing ANYONE who asserts they are open minded but only allows for agreement with their view (or else they suffer consequence, even if that is only name calling to belittle or discredit)…such are the neo-Darwinians (like Dawkins) as well as these kinds of creationists…

So off topic (if I may) but perhaps you have heard (being so much more read in this field) …I know they were going to date the red blood cells found in that T-Rex fossil…suddenly the info line went blank…any insight? Has anything been made known to the public? The site was dated to be about 48 to 68,000,000 years old…did the blood C-14 or whatever agree or disagree and if so by how much? Any idea how we can find out? This was some time ago…they must already have gotten results…why the silence? Just really curious as to what the tests of the blood sample showed in relation to the other data...

Paul
 
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