The unfulfilled promise to Abraham.

thereselittleflower · Jul 30, 2007

Biblewriter said:
Angry denials are not refutations of logical arguments. If you wish to debate rationally, you need to tone down your emotions and tune up your logic.

I have answered you in the new thread titled "olam means forever."

Anger? I have no anger. Imagining anger is not a valid reason for not meeting your burden of proof.

This is just deflection. Nothing more. It is a common type of response when one's arguments have been backed into corner that is hard to defend them from.

.

LittleLambofJesus · Jul 30, 2007

The Bible tells us of many promises made by God to Abraham. The best known of these is:

Umm, Abraham is dead so why dwell on it? Let Ishmael,Isaac, Esau and Jacob and all their descendants fight over the land

http://www.scripture4all.org/

[Young LT] Hebrew 12:18 For ye came not near to the mount touched and scorched with fire, and to blackness, and darkness, and tempest, 19 and a sound of a trumpet, and a voice of sayings, which those having heard did entreat that a word might not be added to them, 20 for they were not bearing that which is commanded, `And if a beast may touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or with an arrow shot through,' 21 and, (so terrible was the sight,) Moses said, `I am fearful exceedingly, and trembling.' 22 But, ye came to Mount Zion, and to a city of the living God, to the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of messengers, 23 to the company and assembly of the first-born in heaven enrolled, and to God the judge of all, and to spirits of righteous men made perfect, 24 and to a mediator of a new covenant--Jesus, and to blood of sprinkling, speaking better things than that of Abel!

thereselittleflower · Jul 30, 2007

And we see that no valid answer was given in the other thread. So the claim of this thread remains unproven.

There is nothing valid to substantiate a claim that the promise of the land to Abraham was forever as in undending time.

All valid evidence tells us that olam is for an age. The promises of God to Abraham regarding the land were for an age. As shown above, there are no promises of the land that are left unfulfilled.

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Biblewriter · Jul 30, 2007

thereselittleflower said:
And we see that no valid answer was given in the other thread. So the claim of this thread remains unproven.

There is nothing valid to substantiate a claim that the promise of the land to Abraham was forever as in undending time.

All valid evidence tells us that olam is for an age. The promises of God to Abraham regarding the land were for an age. As shown above, there are no promises of the land that are left unfulfilled.

.

I gave a full dozen places where olam was used for the results of death.

It is perfectly obvious that there was never a time when mankind did not understand that death was eternal.

I never said that olam always means eternal. I said it sometimes means that, and I proved my point, to the satisfaction of any open mind. You said it never means that.

I said that olam has the same meaning in Hebrew as forever in English. You unintentionally admitted that this is correct.

In English, forever sometimes means eternal, but it always means having no end in regard to the time period in question. I demonstrated from its many uses that olam has the same meaning in Hebrew.

But what is the time period in question for the promise to Abraham? God defined it as "to a thousand generations." The time period you want to apply this promise to (until the time of Christ) is only something on the order of fifty generations.

I am not going to continue to argue with you, for you have demonstrated that you will not listen to reason. You simply deny every fact I demonstrate. Your problem is actually very simple. You love a certain interpretation of the Bible, and will not even consider any evidence that contradicts the interpretative system you so love.

But you have forgotten one exhortation from the Bible. Psalm 122:6 "Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee."

thereselittleflower · Jul 30, 2007

Biblewriter said:
I gave a full dozen places where olam was used for the results of death.

It is perfectly obvious that there was never a time when mankind did not understand that death was eternal.

That one came out of the blue. . . . You are applying your 21st century Christian, American mindset to an ancient writing in an ancient language by an ancient people who were nothing like our 21st century Americian culture and time period. You are comparing one language with another that are so far apart from one another that you can draw no legitimate parallels such as you are attempting between "forever" and "olam". One is not the exact translation of the other.

I never said that olam always means eternal. I said it sometimes means that, and I proved my point, to the satisfaction of any open mind. You said it never means that.

You can claim you proved something, that does not mean you have done so. You have made claims for which you have provided no evidence except scripture that needs to be interpreted so the evidence there is really your interpretation which creates a circular argument.

You have totally ignored actual evidence that others have presented which effectively counter your claims. If you ignore this evidence then all you are doing is engaging in the logical fallacy of Ignores Facts In Evidence.

I can't help it if you do, it is your choice. But it means you have proven nothing except this is your interpretation of scripture. You have not proven it is legitimate.

I said that olam has the same meaning in Hebrew as forever in English. You unintentionally admitted that this is correct.

No, you misunderstood.

In English, forever sometimes means eternal, but it always means having no end in regard to the time period in question. I demonstrated from its many uses that olam has the same meaning in Hebrew.

And I brought to your attention that the time period is what is in question. You continue to acknowledge the limited nature of the time period.

But what is the time period in question for the promise to Abraham? God defined it as "to a thousand generations."

Poetic language, hyperbole . .. Do you really believe this iis literal?

As we went over earlier, this simply means a very long time from the momment in time when it was said.

That's all.

You are reading much into such passages that cannot be defended as being mandated by the said passages.

That ie eisegesis . . reading into scripture what you want to find there. That is an invalid approach to interpretation of scripture.

The time period you want to apply this promise to (until the time of Christ) is only something on the order of fifty generations.

Again, you are wanting to take something that is poetic language, figurative by nature, and make it literal.

That just demonstrates your ignorance of the ancient Hebrew language and its use, its idioms, etc. . . .

Hyperbole. A deliberate exageration to state a truth. Very commonly employed in ancient and modern middle east cultures.

This is what dispenationalism forces its adherents to do, force literal interpretations on figurative language, totally ignoring the nature of the language itself, thus doing violence to the scriptures.

I am not going to continue to argue with you, for you have demonstrated that you will not listen to reason.

If you woud present something that is the result of reason, I would be glad to listen to you. I have listened even to your unreasonable arguments and claims and given you the benefit of replying. If this is what you want to do, that's fine, pick up your marbles and take them away.

But you leave with your position being soundly defeated. Whether you are willing to admit to such has no relevance.

You simply deny every fact I demonstrate.

I demonstrate that what you claim to be facts are not facts, but merely unsubstantiated claims. And so you enter into circular arguments, claims becoming evidence for claims.

We, on the other hand, went to outside sources to demonstrate that your claims are unfounded. You totally ignore that outside evidence, for instance, the Hebrew Lexicon which clearly shows that the type of interpretation you are putting on OLAM is a MISinterpretation and it never carries the concept of eternity when used by itself.

This is what I had claimed al long. Tavita produced the outside evidence to substantiate my claim.

Where is your outside evidence to substantiate you claims?

You have produced exactly not one ounce of outside evidence. You have only produced your arguments, youru claims, your interpretation of scripture.

ALL of what you have produced is being challenged.

Until you actually prove all this is true, all you are making are hollow claims to a victory that never existed.

Your problem is actually very simple. You love a certain interpretation of the Bible,

This is called projection. You are projecting onto me what is true about yourself instead of dealing with this issue so you can grow into a more mature and correct understanding of what the scriptures say. Since you have written so many books on this subject, you have an extremely strong vested interest in being right.

I have no such vested interest. I sincerely hope that you book never makes it into the hands of the president as it is obviously full of error and claims you can't validly support, and we don't need such error compounding foreign policy any further.

and will not even consider any evidence that contradicts the interpretative system you so love.

Just more projection . .see above. I am not the one with a vested interest and financial stake if I am proven wrong.

You are.

It clouds everything you say, especially since you produce no outside evidence. Just your own authority.

But you have forgotten one exhortation from the Bible. Psalm 122:6 "Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee."

Again, first of all, Logical Fallacy . . Assumes Facts Not In Evidence.

Secondly, there is no evidence that this command applies to Christians today in any special way, or that we should hold such prayer in any higher esteeme than any other prayer of peace for any other city on the face of the earth.

Here is one my prayers:

May the justice of God fall down like fire
and bring a home for the Palestinian
.
May the mercy of God pour down like rain
and protect the Jewish people.
And may the beautiful eyes of a Holy God
who weeps for His children
Bring the healing hope for His wounded ones
For the Jew and the Palestinian.

Garth Hewitt

Where is your prayer for the Jew and Palestinian?

.

Biblewriter · Jul 31, 2007

thereselittleflower said:
Where is your outside evidence to substantiate you claims?

You have produced exactly not one ounce of outside evidence. You have only produced your arguments, youru claims, your interpretation of scripture.

ALL of what you have produced is being challenged.

Until you actually prove all this is true, all you are making are hollow claims to a victory that never existed.

This is called projection. You are projecting onto me what is true about yourself instead of dealing with this issue so you can grow into a more mature and correct understanding of what the scriptures say. Since you have written so many books on this subject, you have an extremely strong vested interest in being right.

I have no such vested interest. I sincerely hope that you book never makes it into the hands of the president as it is obviously full of error and claims you can't validly support, and we don't need such error compounding foreign policy any further.

Just more projection . .see above. I am not the one with a vested interest and financial stake if I am proven wrong.

You are.

It clouds everything you say, especially since you produce no outside evidence. Just your own authority.

Again, first of all, Logical Fallacy . . Assumes Facts Not In Evidence.

Secondly, there is no evidence that this command applies to Christians today in any special way, or that we should hold such prayer in any higher esteeme than any other prayer of peace for any other city on the face of the earth.

Here is one my prayers:
May the justice of God fall down like fire
and bring a home for the Palestinian
.
May the mercy of God pour down like rain
and protect the Jewish people.
And may the beautiful eyes of a Holy God
who weeps for His children
Bring the healing hope for His wounded ones
For the Jew and the Palestinian.
Garth Hewitt

Where is your prayer for the Jew and Palestinian?

.

I have presented logic. You have presented emotion. Make all the claims you want to. I leave the readers to judge.

As to outside information, the Holy Scriptures stand on their own. They need no outside information to validate them.

You insisted that the ancient Hebrews had no concept of eternity. I freely admit that they had no word that directly expressed it, but I pointed out that they used olam for how long God would rule, and for how long death would last. It is pure sophistry to argue that they had no concept that these things would last forever.

You speak as if you knew what my book says, yet you have plainly never read it. You claim that I have a vested economic interest in what I say, but I have never made enough on my book to even cover the cost of producing it.

You side with the Palestinians against the Jews, spewing out venom against them in numerous threads. Now you pray for justice for the Palestinians. But where is your prayer for justice for the victims of suicide bombing missions?

The end of the story has already been written.

Ezekiel 25:15Thus says the Lord GOD: Because the Philistines dealt vengefully and took vengeance with a spiteful heart, to destroy because of the old hatred, 16therefore thus says the Lord GOD: I will stretch out My hand against the Philistines, and I will cut off the Cherethites and destroy the remnant of the seacoast. 17I will execute great vengeance on them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I am the Lord, when I lay My vengeance upon them.

Over and out.

LamorakDesGalis · Jul 31, 2007

Biblewriter said:
I have presented logic. You have presented emotion. Make all the claims you want to. I leave the readers to judge.

Biblewriter,
Readers can easily see the manner and tone of how certain arguments are presented. The obvious disrespectfulness in those arguments undermines anything actually said. You however have presented your case well - your reasoning is balanced and you have cited Scripture in support.

LDG

thereselittleflower · Jul 31, 2007

Biblewriter said:
I have presented logic. You have presented emotion. Make all the claims you want to. I leave the readers to judge.

Logic poorly used is poor logic.

Note, still no actual evidence to support his claims.

As to outside information, the Holy Scriptures stand on their own. They need no outside information to validate them.

More circular reasoning . . .The scriptues say "x" because I interpret them to say "x"; I interpret the scriptures to say "x" because the scriptures say "x" . . . "

And round and round the argument goes . . .

This is an example of the logically invalid circular argument.

Valid, outside evidence is needed to prove that his interpretation of scriptures are correct.

All he gives us is his own, fallible, prone to error understanding. Nothing more.

You insisted that the ancient Hebrews had no concept of eternity. I freely admit that they had no word that directly expressed it, but I pointed out that they used olam for how long God would rule, and for how long death would last. It is pure sophistry to argue that they had no concept that these things would last forever.

Note ..

"I freely admit that they had no word that directly expressed it [eternity]"

Yet he has argued that the word OLAM directly expreses the concept of eternity.

So now we see backpeddling which contradicts his earlier claims.

A people who have a clear concept of eternity have a word for such a concept.

This is evidence that the ancient Hebrews did not have a clear concept of eternity as we do today, and did not have eternity in mind when using the word OLAM.

You speak as if you knew what my book says, yet you have plainly never read it.

I don't have to read it. I read your words here, and you promote dispenationalism and error in scripture interpretation. I don't have to read your book to understand what it is about, especially when you announce yourself what it is about.

Your comments above are irrelevant.

You claim that I have a vested economic interest in what I say, but I have never made enough on my book to even cover the cost of producing it.

Then why don't you give it away?

Because you have a vested interest in seeing at least some monetary return on your monetary investment.

You also have invested your reputation as a published author and expert on the subejct.

Yes, you have a vested interest in being right.

You side with the Palestinians against the Jews, spewing out venom against them in numerous threads.

Now note: Instead of any actual evidence being produced to back up his claims, he now resorts to the standard, tried and true, logical fallacy known as Ad Homienm. This is usually engaged in when someone finds their claims backed into a corner of their own making, exposed by their opponent in debate, which is way too difficult to continue to argue their claims from, snd so, in an effort to deflect attention away from their very uncomfortable positon, they go attacking their opponet personally.

Here we see additional logical fallacies of Ignores Facts in Evidence, and Assumes Facts Not In Evidence.

This is defamation in action folks. And as such needs to be addressed.

Never have I attacked the Jewish people.

I take stands against the policies and goals of a movement known as political zionism, against the policies and goals of a racist regime in control of the state of Israel, but that is not the same thing as being against a race of people, the Jews,, many of which openly reject totally the political zionist movement and the legitimacy of the State of Israel calling both an abomination .. these are Jews speaking . . much worse than anything I have said.

So, it is clear that all biblewriter is doing now is a smear campaign against his opponent. . . I wonder where the bible says this is supposed to be a fruit of the spirit for christians. . .. It is not tlf that is spewing venom.

Now you pray for justice for the Palestinians. But where is your prayer for justice for the victims of suicide bombing missions?

And here he continues his smear campaign. What about "peace" does he not understand? Can you have true peace without justice? Of course not.

One has to wonder where his prayers are for Palestinians . . .

The end of the story has already been written.

Ezekiel 25:15‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Because the Philistines dealt vengefully and took vengeance with a spiteful heart, to destroy because of the old hatred,” 16therefore thus says the Lord GOD: “I will stretch out My hand against the Philistines, and I will cut off the Cherethites and destroy the remnant of the seacoast. 17I will execute great vengeance on them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I am the Lord, when I lay My vengeance upon them.”’”

Over and out.

So no prayers by biblewriter for palestinians .. . ?

This begs the questions . . .

Why? Does he not believe that palestinians are included in the command of scripture to seek peace with all peoples and pursue it? Does he believe Palestinians are not worth his prayers, though Christ died for all and loves all?

Strange that he attacks those who pray for Palestinians . . . . such attacks only beg the question(s) further . . . .

Does he not believe that Palestinians are our neighbor, and that they come under the Great Commandment to christians to love our neighbors as ourselves?

His attack on someone else's prayers for the Palestinians while he ignores the question of where is own prayers for the palestinians are, certainly does beg the questons above . . .. .x,y,z . . . . .

And since the Philistines have nothing to do with the Palestinians, (and any claims they did are merely based on myths), and the scripture above applied only to the Philistines of the Old Tesetament time, not to anyone today, the scritpure above is irrelevant to this topic. no x,y,z.

hmmmmmm . .. . . .

The utter lack of evidence to support any of his claims is stunning.

.

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 1, 2007

Originally Posted by Biblewriter

I have presented logic. You have presented emotion. Make all the claims you want to. I leave the readers to judge.

Well, from the amount of posters on this board, it looks as if readers did judge your logic and they are probably still scratching their heads

Luke 23:45 and was darkened/eskotisqh <4654>, the sun and was rent the veil/katapetasma <2665> of sanctuary midst.

Reve 16:10 And the fifth one pours out the bowl of him on the throne of the wild beast and became the kingdom of it having been darkened/eskotwmenh <4656>and they gnawed the tongues of them out of the misery.

IamAdopted · Aug 1, 2007

Well Here is an unfulfilled Prophecy for Isreal.. But Praise God it will be fulfilled.
Eze 36:1 "And you, son of man, prophesy to the mountains of Israel and say, 'O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the LORD.
Eze 36:2 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Because the enemy has spoken against you, 'Aha!' and, 'The everlasting heights have become our possession,'
Eze 36:3 therefore prophesy and say, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "For good reason they have made you desolate and crushed you from every side, that you would become a possession of the rest of the nations and you have been taken up in the talk and the whispering of the people."'"
Eze 36:4 'Therefore, O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD. Thus says the Lord GOD to the mountains and to the hills, to the ravines and to the valleys, to the desolate wastes and to the forsaken cities which have become a prey and a derision to the rest of the nations which are round about,
Eze 36:5 therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "Surely in the fire of My jealousy I have spoken against the rest of the nations, and against all Edom, who appropriated My land for themselves as a possession with wholehearted joy and with scorn of soul, to drive it out for a prey."
Eze 36:6 'Therefore prophesy concerning the land of Israel and say to the mountains and to the hills, to the ravines and to the valleys, "Thus says the Lord GOD, 'Behold, I have spoken in My jealousy and in My wrath because you have endured the insults of the nations.'
Eze 36:7 "Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, 'I have sworn that surely the nations which are around you will themselves endure their insults.
Eze 36:8 'But you, O mountains of Israel, you will put forth your branches and bear your fruit for My people Israel; for they will soon come.
Eze 36:9 'For, behold, I am for you, and I will turn to you, and you will be cultivated and sown.
Eze 36:10 'I will multiply men on you, all the house of Israel, all of it; and the cities will be inhabited and the waste places will be rebuilt.
Eze 36:11 'I will multiply on you man and beast; and they will increase and be fruitful; and I will cause you to be inhabited as you were formerly and will treat you better than at the first. Thus you will know that I am the LORD.
Eze 36:12 'Yes, I will cause men--My people Israel--to walk on you and possess you, so that you will become their inheritance and never again bereave them of children.'
Eze 36:13 "Thus says the Lord GOD, 'Because they say to you, "You are a devourer of men and have bereaved your nation of children,"
Eze 36:14 therefore you will no longer devour men and no longer bereave your nation of children,' declares the Lord GOD.
Eze 36:15 "I will not let you hear insults from the nations anymore, nor will you bear disgrace from the peoples any longer, nor will you cause your nation to stumble any longer," declares the Lord GOD.'"
Eze 36:16 Then the word of the LORD came to me saying,
Eze 36:17 "Son of man, when the house of Israel was living in their own land, they defiled it by their ways and their deeds; their way before Me was like the uncleanness of a woman in her impurity.
Eze 36:18 "Therefore I poured out My wrath on them for the blood which they had shed on the land, because they had defiled it with their idols.
Eze 36:19 "Also I scattered them among the nations and they were dispersed throughout the lands. According to their ways and their deeds I judged them.
Eze 36:20 "When they came to the nations where they went, they profaned My holy name, because it was said of them, 'These are the people of the LORD; yet they have come out of His land.'
Eze 36:21 "But I had concern for My holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations where they went.
Eze 36:22 "Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went.
Eze 36:23 "I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD," declares the Lord GOD, "when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight.
Eze 36:24 "For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land.
Eze 36:25 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
Eze 36:26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
Eze 36:28 "You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.
Eze 36:29 "Moreover, I will save you from all your uncleanness; and I will call for the grain and multiply it, and I will not bring a famine on you.
Eze 36:30 "I will multiply the fruit of the tree and the produce of the field, so that you will not receive again the disgrace of famine among the nations.
Eze 36:31 "Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and your abominations.
Eze 36:32 "I am not doing this for your sake," declares the Lord GOD, "let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel!"
Eze 36:33 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "On the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities, I will cause the cities to be inhabited, and the waste places will be rebuilt.
Eze 36:34 "The desolate land will be cultivated instead of being a desolation in the sight of everyone who passes by.
Eze 36:35 "They will say, 'This desolate land has become like the garden of Eden; and the waste, desolate and ruined cities are fortified and inhabited.'
Eze 36:36 "Then the nations that are left round about you will know that I, the LORD, have rebuilt the ruined places and planted that which was desolate; I, the LORD, have spoken and will do it."
Eze 36:37 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "This also I will let the house of Israel ask Me to do for them: I will increase their men like a flock.
Eze 36:38 "Like the flock for sacrifices, like the flock at Jerusalem during her appointed feasts, so will the waste cities be filled with flocks of men. Then they will know that I am the LORD."'"

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 1, 2007

Well Here is an unfulfilled Prophecy for Isreal.. But Praise God it will be fulfilled.

Hi. You do realize there is a difference between jew-Israelite and non-Jew Israelite correct?

Matt 23:32 and ye--ye fill up the measure of your fathers. 33 `Serpents! brood/gennhmata <1081> of vipers! how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna/geennhV <1067>?

Ezekiel 39:12 "For seven months the house of Yisra'el will be burying them [Judah/Preisthood?], in order to purify the land. 13 "Indeed all the people of the land will be burying, and they will gain renown for it on the day that I am glorified," says 'Adonay Y@hovih.

IamAdopted · Aug 1, 2007

Isrealites are Jew.. This is a Jewish nation.. This is why The prophecy contains that they will live in the land that He gave their forefathers..

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 1, 2007

IamAdopted said:
Isrealites are Jew.. This is a Jewish nation.. This is why The prophecy contains that they will live in the land that He gave their forefathers..

Nope, not all Israeites are "jews" and even if they were, the "jews" only get a small portion of the land while the non-Jew Israelites get the larger portion.
Also note, it is only the "jews" the wraths fall on.

Luke 21:21 then those in Judea, let them flee to the mountains; and those in her midst, let them depart out; and those in the countries, let them not come in to her; 22 because these are days of vengeance, to fulfil all things that have been written.
23 `And woe to those with child, and to those giving suck, in those days; for there shall be great distress on the land, and wrath on this people;

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/jew.htm

The Jewish Almanac concurs: "Strictly speaking, it is incorrect to call an ancient Israelite a "Jew." Or to call a contemporary Jew [an] "Israelite," or a "Hebrew." The first Hebrews were not have been Jews at all, and contemporary Palestinians, by their own definition of the term "Palestinian," have to include Jews among their own people" (The Jewish Almanac, October, 1980, page 3, Bantam Books, Inc).

thereselittleflower · Aug 1, 2007

IAA, the prophecy in Ezekial has been fulfilled regarding the land. As I poted in another thread to a similar post of yours, the Hasmoneon Dynasty extended to that comprable to the Davidic Dynasty which Solomon ruled over, which was from the Euphrates, to the Sea, to the River of Egypt.

There is no need to look for another fulfilment of ths prophecy as if it never was fulfilled.

.

Biblewriter · Aug 2, 2007

thereselittleflower said:
IAA, the prophecy in Ezekial has been fulfilled regarding the land. As I poted in another thread to a similar post of yours, the Hasmoneon Dynasty extended to that comprable to the Davidic Dynasty which Solomon ruled over, which was from the Euphrates, to the Sea, to the River of Egypt.

There is no need to look for another fulfilment of ths prophecy as if it never was fulfilled.

.

You continue to deny everything, in the face of all evidence to the contrary. Now you pretend that the promise of Ezekiel 36 was fulfilled in the Hasmoneon Dynasty. This is patently false. The Hasmoneon dynasty involved a small party of Jews who had returned from Babylon. It most certainly did not even involve all the Jews, much less all of the other ten tribes. But the passage quoted by IamAdopted included the following words:

Ezekiel 36:8But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel; for they are at hand to come. 9For, behold, I am for you, and I will turn unto you, and ye shall be tilled and sown: 10And I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, even all of it: and the cities shall be inhabited, and the wastes shall be builded:

This prophecy is not addressed to Judah (the Jews) but to Israel. The repeating of the word all in verse 10 stresses that this literally means all Israel, not some of it. There is no way to legitimately even pretend that all Israel ever returned to the land, or even that a significant portion of any of the tribes except Judah and Benjamin (the Jews) ever returned.

I will answer your latest arguments concerning olam in that thread.

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 3, 2007

Those who bless Israel are blessed, and those who curse Israel are cursed. Genesis 12:3 and 27:29 and Numbers 24:9.

Then God must be cursed:

Malachi 2:1 "And now, O priests, this commandment is for you. 2 If you will not hear, And if you will not take [it] to heart, To give glory to My name," Says the LORD of hosts, "I will send a curse upon you, And I will curse your blessings. Yes, I have cursed them already,

Ezekiel 39:12 "For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them, in order to cleanse the land. 13 "Indeed all the people of the land will be burying, and they will gain renown for it on the day that I am glorified," says the Lord GOD.

http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/lazarus.htm

Biblewriter · Aug 3, 2007

LittleLambofJesus said:
Then God must be cursed:

Malachi 2:1 "And now, O priests, this commandment is for you. 2 If you will not hear, And if you will not take [it] to heart, To give glory to My name," Says the LORD of hosts, "I will send a curse upon you, And I will curse your blessings. Yes, I have cursed them already,

Ezekiel 39:12 "For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them, in order to cleanse the land. 13 "Indeed all the people of the land will be burying, and they will gain renown for it on the day that I am glorified," says the Lord GOD.

http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/lazarus.htm

The passage from Malachi is not about Israel, but about certain evil men in Israel. In the passage in Ezekiel Israel is burying those who had attacked them in the previous chapter. So these passages have no bearing on the question.

But since you think I am mistaken, I will quote (with their contexts) the passages I had previously only cited. They are so explicit and plain that they need no further comment, except to say that they have never been retracted.

Genesis 12:1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy fathers house, unto a land that I will show thee: 2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: 3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Genesis 27:27And he came near, and kissed him: and he smelled the smell of his raiment, and blessed him, and said, See, the smell of my son is as the smell of a field which the LORD hath blessed: 28Therefore God give thee of the dew of heaven, and the fatness of the earth, and plenty of corn and wine: 29Let people serve thee, and nations bow down to thee: be lord over thy brethren, and let thy mothers sons bow down to thee: cursed be every one that curseth thee, and blessed be he that blesseth thee.30And it came to pass, as soon as Isaac had made an end of blessing Jacob, and Jacob was yet scarce gone out from the presence of Isaac his father, that Esau his brother came in from his hunting. 31And he also had made savoury meat, and brought it unto his father, and said unto his father, Let my father arise, and eat of his sons venison, that thy soul may bless me. 32And Isaac his father said unto him, Who art thou? And he said, I am thy son, thy firstborn Esau. 33And Isaac trembled very exceedingly, and said, Who? where is he that hath taken venison, and brought it me, and I have eaten of all before thou camest, and have blessed him? yea, and he shall be blessed.

Numbers 24:1And when Balaam saw that it pleased the LORD to bless Israel, he went not, as at other times, to seek for enchantments, but he set his face toward the wilderness. 2And Balaam lifted up his eyes, and he saw Israel abiding in his tents according to their tribes; and the spirit of God came upon him. 3And he took up his parable, and said, Balaam the son of Beor hath said, and the man whose eyes are open hath said: 4He hath said, which heard the words of God, which saw the vision of the Almighty, falling into a trance, but having his eyes open: 5How goodly are thy tents, O Jacob, and thy tabernacles, O Israel! 6As the valleys are they spread forth, as gardens by the rivers side, as the trees of lign aloes which the LORD hath planted, and as cedar trees beside the waters. 7He shall pour the water out of his buckets, and his seed shall be in many waters, and his king shall be higher than Agag, and his kingdom shall be exalted. 8God brought him forth out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn: he shall eat up the nations his enemies, and shall break their bones, and pierce them through with his arrows. 9He couched, he lay down as a lion, and as a great lion: who shall stir him up? Blessed is he that blesseth thee, and cursed is he that curseth thee.

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 3, 2007

The passage from Malachi is not about Israel, but about certain evil men in Israel. In the passage in Ezekiel Israel is burying those who had attacked them in the previous chapter. So these passages have no bearing on the question.

Hi. OnlyJews that believe unto the Christ will inherit land so how many Jews today are in the world that believe in Christ [not counting messiancs].

I would think the Muslims have more right to it,as they at least believe in Christ.

Biblewriter · Aug 3, 2007

LittleLambofJesus said:
Hi. OnlyJews that believe unto the Christ will inherit land so how many Jews today are in the world that believe in Christ [not counting messiancs].

I would think the Muslims have more right to it,as they at least believe in Christ.

Your post contains two fundamental errors. The first is using your interpretation of one part of the Bible to set aside the express statement of another part of the Bible.

First, no scripture says that "only Jews that believe unto the Christ will inherit the land." But as a principle, I will agree that you are correct. But this has no bearing on the explicit promise. Your error here is in failing to notice that it also expressly says (in very many places) that Israel will eventually repent and turn to Him. I plan to cover some of these explicit prophecies in another thread soon.

The second fundamental error is is saying that Muslims believe in Christ. They expressly deny that he is God, and that he is the Son of God. They believe that He was only a prophet, and not the greatest prophet at that.

IamAdopted · Aug 3, 2007

Yes many will repent and return to Him.. This is why in Revelations we see what they say. Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. This will be at His glorious return..

The unfulfilled promise to Abraham.

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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