The Unchosen

DMagoh · Apr 1, 2007

What do Calvinist think about the "unchosen"? I know that Calvinists claim that they ("the elect") dont deserve salvation and praise God that He chose them, but do Calvinists at least feel sorry for their next door neighbor, the smuck that God didnt choose? He doesnt deserve salvation either, I agree - but do Calvinists feel sorry for the poor smucks that didnt get chosen? Do Calvinists ever feel gulity about being saved and others having no choice in the matter?

Defcon · Apr 1, 2007

Twofold answer:

1) There is no boasting for the elect above the non-elect, save Christ alone. We performed no works, no merit, no self-derived will to come to God. We also don't know who the non-elect or the elect are in totality, so we continue to share the good news of Christ to the world.

2) We understand that God will be glorified in all things, including showing His wrath to those who are at enmity with him. In the end, God's holiness will be displayed and His wrath will come against the ungodly. That's not a 'bad' thing that requires pity - it's a Biblical concept ignored in modern Christianity.

heymikey80 · Apr 1, 2007

DMagoh said:
What do Calvinist think about the "unchosen"? I know that Calvinists claim that they ("the elect") dont deserve salvation and praise God that He chose them, but do Calvinists at least feel sorry for their next door neighbor, the smuck that God didnt choose? He doesnt deserve salvation either, I agree - but do Calvinists feel sorry for the poor smucks that didnt get chosen? Do Calvinists ever feel gulity about being saved and others having no choice in the matter?

As has been pointed out a number of times here, others do have a "choice in the matter." Predestination says that in the absence of God's regenerating work sinful people will not put their faith in God. Their choices condemn them. But our choices would condemn us too, without Christ. That's the basic problem -- we've all chosen wrongly; so God chose some with unmerited favor.

Do we feel sorry that people get into this kind of spiral of choosing wrong instead of good? Certainly, yes -- that goes for anyone. Close relatives and friends, even I will choose paths that lead away from Christ. I'd love to know what would change the course, and I pray for that turning and hope it's in the future for some of us. I'm aware I'm utterly reliant on God for this change, for anyone.

I would think it's more embarrassment at my salvation than guilt -- I'm not exactly a guilt-ridden human being with Christ at my side. But I'm embarrassed by my sins in human comparison with others.

JimfromOhio · Apr 2, 2007

DMagoh said:
What do Calvinist think about the "unchosen"? I know that Calvinists claim that they ("the elect") dont deserve salvation and praise God that He chose them, but do Calvinists at least feel sorry for their next door neighbor, the smuck that God didnt choose? He doesnt deserve salvation either, I agree - but do Calvinists feel sorry for the poor smucks that didnt get chosen? Do Calvinists ever feel gulity about being saved and others having no choice in the matter?

Dwelling on this issue?

We just follow Calvinism that is just a doctrine (teaching) of how we believe salvation work according to God's sovereign and the work of the Holy Spirit.

I repeat, Calvinism is a doctrine (not actual salvation). In my position, God will not hold me responsible for my lack of understanding in the mysteries of election, predestination, and the divine sovereignty. The best and safest way to deal with these is to look to God in deepest respect say, "0 Lord, You know all."

There is no guilt feelings on my part because I trust God in this matter.

IN REVERSE:
This is the same for those who (non-calvinists) say to those who are not saved... "YOU MADE A CHOICE and NOW you are going to hell".

Paleoconservatarian · Apr 2, 2007

It is not the case that the reprobate have no choice in the matter. We do not believe that God predestinates some unto salvation in the same way that He predestinates others unto damnation. Predestination unto salvation is entirely sovereign and gracious, whereas reprobation is judicial. We speak of God in the act of reprobation as "passing over" these men, so that they are left in their sins. Thus reprobation takes into account sin, of which God is not the author, and which man is more than pleased to commit and to remain in.

And the fact that election is entirely sovereign and gracious on God's part should humble us and lead us to have compassion for our neighbors - believing or unbelieving. If it were not for God's seeking us out, we'd be in the same mess. And it isn't as though we know who is reprobate and who isn't. We aren't to concern ourselves with that, that's why it's a part of God's secret decree and has not been revealed to us.

UMP · Apr 4, 2007

DMagoh said:
What do Calvinist think about the "unchosen"? I know that Calvinists claim that they ("the elect") dont deserve salvation and praise God that He chose them, but do Calvinists at least feel sorry for their next door neighbor, the smuck that God didnt choose? He doesnt deserve salvation either, I agree - but do Calvinists feel sorry for the poor smucks that didnt get chosen? Do Calvinists ever feel gulity about being saved and others having no choice in the matter?

Take it a step further. What if ones parents show no sign of being elect children of God, do not feel the need for a savior?
Such is my case. I love my parents, however, by the grace of God, I love God more and I know that whatever God wills is good, even if I cannot fully understand why. Yes, it makes me sad to think of my parents not being in heaven, but how can I, a sinful man, judge God? How can I, made of corrupt clay, judge the creator of heaven and earth, the one who upholds all things by the word of His power? Where was I when God made the oceans and the mountains? Did God need my council as he formed me in my mothers womb?
The reality is that we should bow in the dust for none of us deserves even one more breath.

The proper attitude toward God regarding the damned is reverent silence.

Job 40:
[4] Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.

TigerBunny · Apr 14, 2007

DMagoh said:
What do Calvinist think about the "unchosen"? I know that Calvinists claim that they ("the elect") dont deserve salvation and praise God that He chose them, but do Calvinists at least feel sorry for their next door neighbor, the smuck that God didnt choose? He doesnt deserve salvation either, I agree - but do Calvinists feel sorry for the poor smucks that didnt get chosen? Do Calvinists ever feel gulity about being saved and others having no choice in the matter?

Er...how are we to know, beyond ourselves, who is to be saved and who isn't? If anything our hearts should go out to all of humanity and compel us to obey the command to preach the Gospel.

Praise the Lord that His Word will not return void.

RepentantSinner · Apr 15, 2007

JimfromOhio said:
Dwelling on this issue?

We just follow Calvinism that is just a doctrine (teaching) of how we believe salvation work according to God's sovereign and the work of the Holy Spirit.

I repeat, Calvinism is a doctrine (not actual salvation). In my position, God will not hold me responsible for my lack of understanding in the mysteries of election, predestination, and the divine sovereignty. The best and safest way to deal with these is to look to God in deepest respect say, "0 Lord, You know all."

There is no guilt feelings on my part because I trust God in this matter.

IN REVERSE:
This is the same for those who (non-calvinists) say to those who are not saved... "YOU MADE A CHOICE and NOW you are going to hell".

I personally don't care for the actual word "Calvinism". For some reason when professed Christians in the mordern day mega churches hear that word they automatically conger up a Hyper-Calvinistic point of view. i.e. The ELECT are choosen and they don't have to do a thing! It is what it is. That is a VERY WRONG point of vew. In all actuallity its just a form of a doctrine of Grace. John Calvin would not like the fact that its called Calvinism. The term "Calvinism" came up at the Synod of Dort to give the men meeting there a means of cataloging and refuting Jacob Arminius' views, which of course was cataloged as Arminianism. Its a sad fact that most churches today teach a form a Arminianism, which was deamed heretical by the Cannons of Dort. They don't mean to, I'm sure their intentions are meaningful. However, it is a clear case of the blind leading the blind. When you present the tough questions to a "Professed Christian" in these churches their hearts harden immediatly and they feel offended in some way. So I feel Defcon answered the question very well, we are called to present the Gospel to everyone its not up to us to try and convert or to worry about who is saved or not. We, of course, wish everyone would be saved but who are we to question the Will of God. He does what he pleases for his good pleasure.

RepentantSinner · Apr 15, 2007

UMP said:
Take it a step further. What if ones parents show no sign of being elect children of God, do not feel the need for a savior?
Such is my case. I love my parents, however, by the grace of God, I love God more and I know that whatever God wills is good, even if I cannot fully understand why. Yes, it makes me sad to think of my parents not being in heaven, but how can I, a sinful man, judge God? How can I, made of corrupt clay, judge the creator of heaven and earth, the one who upholds all things by the word of His power? Where was I when God made the oceans and the mountains? Did God need my council as he formed me in my mothers womb?
The reality is that we should bow in the dust for none of us deserves even one more breath.

The proper attitude toward God regarding the damned is reverent silence.

Job 40:
[4] Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.

Matthew 15

Defilement Comes from Within

1 Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, 2 Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.
3 He answered and said to them, Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, Honor your father and your mother;[a] and, He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.[b] 5 But you say, Whoever says to his father or mother, Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.[c] Thus you have made the commandment[d] of God of no effect by your tradition.

I was fortunate to have my father witness to me and my brother. I was even more fortunate to have my wicked, hard heart replaced by God. All this has happened within the last year. My brother and I hated my father for the past four years. We thought he was CRAZY!!! My brother even threw him through a glass door. Pretty disfunctional! My brother and I completely understand why he was so saddened to raise us up UnGodly and how he failed as a responsible Godly parent. I would be very sad myself if God opened up my eyes to his true word and kept my parents blind. Remember we will not feel sorrow for the damned in Heaven. I will pray for your parents rebirth. May God give us the wisdom and strength to do his will here on earth as it is done in Heaven.

childofGod31 · May 3, 2007

I believe in predestination (even though I don't associate with a certain title, like Calvinist...)

I believe in it because I found many Bible verses that support it.

But predestination is one of the questions though that puzzles me greatly: why is God angry with people who didn't choose him? (There are many verses that say that). If they were "dead" in their sins and coudn't see the truth, they couldn't make a choice. But it sounds like God has a bone to pick with them. So I am really puzzled by this one.

If God chose some to salvation and "passed by" others, He should know that the non-elect are incapable of converting. If anything, He should have pity on them.

I am sure the true Christians (the ones with love in their hearts) are feeling great sadness for the non-chosen ones (whoever they maybe, because we'll never really know which ones are chosen and which are not.)

There must be a reasonable explanation to all of this and that we'll know it when we get to Heaven.

Even Paul didn't have the answer, because when asked about this (in Romans 9) he just said: who are you to argue with God. If God wants to choose some and leave others be, it's His right.

I personally don't see a problem if God choose some to have eternal life and left others to cease to exist, that is perfectly fine. He is the creator, He has this right.

BUT, if the non-chosen will suffer eternally, that is a problem. If they didn't really have a choice and then have to suffer by default, this troubles me. But I am sure God will explain everything in time.

bradfordl · May 3, 2007

I believe in predestination (even though I don't associate with a certain title, like Calvinist...)

I believe in it because I found many Bible verses that support it.

But predestination is one of the questions though that puzzles me greatly: why is God angry with people who didn't choose him? (There are many verses that say that). If they were "dead" in their sins and coudn't see the truth, they couldn't make a choice. But it sounds like God has a bone to pick with them. So I am really puzzled by this one.

If God chose some to salvation and "passed by" others, He should know that the non-elect are incapable of converting. If anything, He should have pity on them.

I am sure the true Christians (the ones with love in their hearts) are feeling great sadness for the non-chosen ones (whoever they maybe, because we'll never really know which ones are chosen and which are not.)

There must be a reasonable explanation to all of this and that we'll know it when we get to Heaven.

Even Paul didn't have the answer, because when asked about this (in Romans 9) he just said: who are you to argue with God. If God wants to choose some and leave others be, it's His right.

I personally don't see a problem if God choose some to have eternal life and left others to cease to exist, that is perfectly fine. He is the creator, He has this right.

BUT, if the non-chosen will suffer eternally, that is a problem. If they didn't really have a choice and then have to suffer by default, this troubles me. But I am sure God will explain everything in time.

The foremost purpose of all creation and history is that God be glorified in it. That helps more than anything I know of to clarify all this. You see, Paul did say more than just who are you to argue with God, he said:

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

God is declaring all His glory in creation, all the characteristics of His holiness. His hatred of evil and His love of mercy are two that are displayed here.

Predestination does not remove choice and culpability. From human perspective, we have choices to make, and we make them from the proclivities of our natures. That God has ordained what those choices will be does not take away our moral responsibility for them.

Elect · Jun 7, 2007

God choosing His people and Him doing this before the foundation of the world is Biblical truth and a Biblical fact. God's electing Grace is no hindrance to salvation, for without it no one would believe, because Man is totally dead in his sins.

sonofvu · Jun 13, 2007

childofGod31 said:
I believe in predestination (even though I don't associate with a certain title, like Calvinist...)

I believe in it because I found many Bible verses that support it.

But predestination is one of the questions though that puzzles me greatly: why is God angry with people who didn't choose him? (There are many verses that say that). If they were "dead" in their sins and coudn't see the truth, they couldn't make a choice. But it sounds like God has a bone to pick with them. So I am really puzzled by this one.

If God chose some to salvation and "passed by" others, He should know that the non-elect are incapable of converting. If anything, He should have pity on them.

I am sure the true Christians (the ones with love in their hearts) are feeling great sadness for the non-chosen ones (whoever they maybe, because we'll never really know which ones are chosen and which are not.)

There must be a reasonable explanation to all of this and that we'll know it when we get to Heaven.

Even Paul didn't have the answer, because when asked about this (in Romans 9) he just said: who are you to argue with God. If God wants to choose some and leave others be, it's His right.

I personally don't see a problem if God choose some to have eternal life and left others to cease to exist, that is perfectly fine. He is the creator, He has this right.

BUT, if the non-chosen will suffer eternally, that is a problem. If they didn't really have a choice and then have to suffer by default, this troubles me. But I am sure God will explain everything in time.

It all boils down to original sin. If Adam is our representative then we have commited Adam's sin. If we were in the Garden of Eden we would have done exactly what Adam did.

kj7gs · Jun 14, 2007

We have no idea who the "unchosen" are. It's true that no one deserves salvation, but I believe that God is glorified in both the election of believers and the reprobation of unbelievers. We witness out of joy, not out of duty, as if we would merit heaven for our acts of proselytization. Therefore we glorify God in his decrees, and for his grace in choosing his own. There is no "supposed to" for Christians in this manner, there is only God's grace at work, and we Christians get the opportunity to participate in those decrees.

mlqurgw · Jun 14, 2007

kj7gs said:
We have no idea who the "unchosen" are. It's true that no one deserves salvation, but I believe that God is glorified in both the election of believers and the reprobation of unbelievers. We witness out of joy, not out of duty, as if we would merit heaven for our acts of proselytization. Therefore we glorify God in his decrees, and for his grace in choosing his own. There is no "supposed to" for Christians in this manner, there is only God's grace at work, and we Christians get the opportunity to participate in those decrees.

Welcome to CF! Looking forward to reading more from you.

cygnusx1 · Jun 14, 2007

DMagoh said:
What do Calvinist think about the "unchosen"? I know that Calvinists claim that they ("the elect") dont deserve salvation and praise God that He chose them, but do Calvinists at least feel sorry for their next door neighbor, the smuck that God didnt choose? He doesnt deserve salvation either, I agree - but do Calvinists feel sorry for the poor smucks that didnt get chosen? Do Calvinists ever feel gulity about being saved and others having no choice in the matter?

a very good question there DM , I look at an analogy , do you think it is right , good , proper and decent for a nation to give praise to God for victory in a war ?
Even though that victory comes at the price of many innocent lives ?

furthermore , do you consider it OK that families thank God for bringing back their loved ones , preserving THEM in battle when many were not preserved .... is it not also an embarrasing thing to display smiles and medals when others are weeping ?

what do you see as an alternative to this celebration over God's Sovereignty ?

The Unchosen

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