The Ultimate Sacrifice

Ana the Ist · Mar 8, 2014

Resha Caner said:
Should I assume by "no one" that you mean God (i.e. that there is no god to ask)? I would hope you don't mean you've never felt the need to apologize to people either.

By no one I mean I don't believe in salvation or absolution, so whether you mean god or something else...it doesn't really matter. Of course I've felt the need to apologize, an apology is a useful thing....especially if the person you apologize to thinks you meant it. Maybe it would clear things up if I said, I never did anything that I thought was wrong when I did it.

Resha Caner · Mar 8, 2014

Ana the Ist said:
By no one I mean I don't believe in salvation or absolution, so whether you mean god or something else...it doesn't really matter. Of course I've felt the need to apologize, an apology is a useful thing....especially if the person you apologize to thinks you meant it. Maybe it would clear things up if I said, I never did anything that I thought was wrong when I did it.

OK. You still leave me wondering if your apologies come from remorse or from a desire to manipulate the person to whom you are apologizing.

I suppose I am leading up to asking if you think there is bad in the world, and if so, why? I'm sure it's been discussed, but it's not a question I've asked an atheist before.

Ana the Ist · Mar 8, 2014

Resha Caner said:
OK. You still leave me wondering if your apologies come from remorse or from a desire to manipulate the person to whom you are apologizing.

I suppose I am leading up to asking if you think there is bad in the world, and if so, why? I'm sure it's been discussed, but it's not a question I've asked an atheist before.

Aren't all apologies a matter of manipulation? You might be sorry that you hurt someone's feelings, let them down, etc., but are you ever really sorry you did some action of some sort? I'm not going to say it isn't possible, I'm sure it is, I just can't recall any actions I'm sorry for. It was all worthwhile lol.

I believe in good and bad in the sense that you and I can look at a behavior or action and decide for ourselves if we think it's good or bad, but nothing beyond that.

OldWiseGuy · Mar 9, 2014

Ana the Ist said:
Aren't all apologies a matter of manipulation? You might be sorry that you hurt someone's feelings, let them down, etc., but are you ever really sorry you did some action of some sort? I'm not going to say it isn't possible, I'm sure it is, I just can't recall any actions I'm sorry for.

Click to expand...

As an older person I can tell you that one does feel remorse about things done and said to others along the way. Perhaps it takes time to get past the justifications and rationalizations but in the end there is genuine remorse. Sadly I won't have the opportunity to say I'm sorry as some of those that I have hurt have passed. It is because of this that I am able to forgive others that have harmed me, with no apology from them needed.

Resha Caner · Mar 9, 2014

Ana the Ist said:
... are you ever really sorry you did some action of some sort?

I am.

Ana the Ist said:
I believe in good and bad in the sense that you and I can look at a behavior or action and decide for ourselves if we think it's good or bad, but nothing beyond that.

It doesn't sound like you've given much thought to the issue ... I also get an impression of someone who doesn't have much responsibility ... so maybe this isn't worth asking, but what criteria do you use to decide these things? What purpose does it serve for you?

durangodawood · Mar 9, 2014

oldwiseguy said:
Too hypothetical. God's plan of redemption doesn't allow this choice by the individual.

Well, this isnt about "how it all actually works".

Its about what you value.

Ana the Ist · Mar 9, 2014

Resha Caner said:
I am.

It doesn't sound like you've given much thought to the issue ... I also get an impression of someone who doesn't have much responsibility ... so maybe this isn't worth asking, but what criteria do you use to decide these things? What purpose does it serve for you?

Care to give us an example?

Lol I don't have much responsibility?? I don't see how the two are connected. Why would you think I haven't given the the issue much thought? My explanation works in every situation, and as far as I'm aware, it's the only one that does.

The answer to your last two questions is, "mine".

OldWiseGuy · Mar 9, 2014

durangodawood said:
Well, this isnt about "how it all actually works".

Its about what you value.

I find no value in what the OP proposed.

Ana the Ist · Mar 9, 2014

oldwiseguy said:
Ana the Ist said:

As an older person I can tell you that one does feel remorse about things done and said to others along the way. Perhaps it takes time to get past the justifications and rationalizations but in the end there is genuine remorse. Sadly I won't have the opportunity to say I'm sorry as some of those that I have hurt have passed. It is because of this that I am able to forgive others that have harmed me, with no apology from them needed.

Click to expand...

That's so sadly sweet...awwww.

Perhaps it's a matter of perspective old guy. In your old life full of regrets, bad choices, misdeeds and so on...is there anything you did that you didn't at least learn from? Did any of it have no value at all?

For me, I relished every experience, even the awful ones....especially the awful ones in some ways. I'd trade none of it. It's made me who I am. I don't regret a thing. I've learned from it all. It's a funny thing to realize you cannot be who you are without the things you've done.

Leave your remorse for the dead.

OldWiseGuy · Mar 9, 2014

Ana the Ist said:
oldwiseguy said:

That's so sadly sweet...awwww.

Perhaps it's a matter of perspective old guy. In your old life full of regrets, bad choices, misdeeds and so on...is there anything you did that you didn't at least learn from? Did any of it have no value at all?

For me, I relished every experience, even the awful ones....especially the awful ones in some ways. I'd trade none of it. It's made me who I am. I don't regret a thing. I've learned from it all. It's a funny thing to realize you cannot be who you are without the things you've done.

Leave your remorse for the dead.

Click to expand...

Can't do that. I'm a Christian.

Resha Caner · Mar 9, 2014

Ana the Ist said:
Care to give us an example?

Lol I don't have much responsibility?? I don't see how the two are connected. Why would you think I haven't given the the issue much thought?

It's just the impression I get of you. My other impression is that you don't really care whether my impressions of you are right or wrong.

Ana the Ist said:
My explanation works in every situation, and as far as I'm aware, it's the only one that does.

I don't see how it works at all. In contrast, my approach works well for me, so you must not be aware of it.

Ana the Ist said:
The answer to your last two questions is, "mine".

OK. I'll take this to mean you don't want to discuss it with me.

quatona · Mar 9, 2014

Resha Caner said:
OK. You still leave me wondering if your apologies come from remorse or from a desire to manipulate the person to whom you are apologizing.

Are these the only two options you can think of?
Personally, I mostly find myself being more educated in retrospect - so I regret some results of my actions. Knowing this might benefit the person who suffered from this result (as well as our relationship).

I suppose I am leading up to asking if you think there is bad in the world, and if so, why? I'm sure it's been discussed, but it's not a question I've asked an atheist before.

That probably depends a lot on what exactly you mean by "bad existing". In my view, there are undesired/undesirable events. I wouldn´t have much problem calling these "bad" - but I guess that´s not what you mean. (?)

quatona · Mar 9, 2014

Resha Caner said:
I don't see how it works at all. In contrast, my approach works well for me, so you must not be aware of it.

What exactly is your approach, and when you say "it works for you" - in regards to which purpose or goal does it "work"?

Ana the Ist · Mar 9, 2014

Resha Caner said:
It's just the impression I get of you. My other impression is that you don't really care whether my impressions of you are right or wrong.

I don't see how it works at all. In contrast, my approach works well for me, so you must not be aware of it.

OK. I'll take this to mean you don't want to discuss it with me.

What do you think is different about "your approach"? Don't you do whatever you think is right in a given situation?

Resha Caner · Mar 9, 2014

Ana the Ist said:
What do you think is different about "your approach"?

I don't consider myself the one to always decide right and wrong.

Ana the Ist said:
Don't you do whatever you think is right in a given situation?

I can't say that is always the case. It is not always clear what is right.

Ana the Ist · Mar 9, 2014

Resha Caner said:
I don't consider myself the one to always decide right and wrong.

I can't say that is always the case. It is not always clear what is right.

Yikes, who then decides right and wrong for you? It sounds like an awful way to live...

I find right and wrong sometimes by doing...then it becomes clear where it wasn't before.

PsychoSarah · Mar 9, 2014

daniel777 said:
Why did you put the last option in?

There should always be more options than just yes or no. In the case of the last one, I would view it as along the lines of you would have to know why those people you would be saving were hell bound to begin with. After all, since it is never stated, it could be anything from just not being believers to being serial killers.

PsychoSarah · Mar 9, 2014

What I wanted to reveal in this is that seeking salvation is ultimately selfish: you do it for yourself, not for other people. If it were for others, then you wouldn't care if you were rewarded or not; what would matter is how much you can give to others. I am not saying that I would go to hell so that two strangers go to heaven; I recognize my own selfishness in this regard. The point is that true selfishness, giving something up without a guarantee of something later in return, is impossible with religion, because no matter what you give up in life you assume that you will gain more in an afterlife. Take that away, and almost no one is willing to give something they have worked hard for just because more people will enjoy it if they do.

Resha Caner · Mar 9, 2014

Ana the Ist said:
Yikes, who then decides right and wrong for you? It sounds like an awful way to live...

I find right and wrong sometimes by doing...then it becomes clear where it wasn't before.

How is your way not narcissistic?

Resha Caner · Mar 9, 2014

PsychoSarah said:
What I wanted to reveal in this is that seeking salvation is ultimately selfish ...

It didn't show that at all. As many pointed out, your hypothetical example was too extreme and not at all a Christian understanding of salvation, which is heavily focused on bringing salvation to all, not just the self.

At the center of these types of debates are always questions like: Does altruism actually exist? Is everything a person does selfish? If you think salvation is selfish, what would be your example of something that isn't?

The Ultimate Sacrifice

Would You Sacrifice Your Salvation To Save 2 Others?

Yes

No

Unsure

Would need to know something about those people to make a choice

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"God"? What do you mean??

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