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The Ultimate Analytical Engine

MoonlessNight

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A question for the proponents of strong AI (that computers have the potential to be as intelligent as humans and intelligent/concious in the same as humans): Would it be possible to create an AI with a purely mechanical system? Granted such a machine might have to be as big as the solar system or even as big as a galaxy, but would it be theoretically possible? Could intelligence possibly exist among gears and punch cards just as it does in our neurons? Or is there something about a mechanical system that would prevent intelligence from occuring?
 

ReluctantProphet

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Yes intelligence is independent of the medium it resides in other than to affect it's speed.

Intelligence is a problem solving process, nothing more.

Everything that a human can do, a human can design a machine to do better.

If this were not the case, the human would be much less intelligent than he is.
 
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MoonlessNight

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Merlin said:
What do you mean by 'intellegence'?
I mean what you mean by intelligence. I can't really define the term. I mean, I could give a definition but I don't think it would help. It seems to me that much of the Strong vs. Weak AI debate rests on the nature of intelligence. Since I'm just trying to look at another facet of the debate, I don't think it's appropriate to force everyone to use the same definition of intelligence.

So if you think that intelligence is defined by results you might answer one way and if not you might answer another way. Or maybe you wouldn't. I don't know.

The only thing that I gave as a guiding principle is that intelligence should be defined in such a way that humans are intelligent, and preferably that only humans, possibly some smart animals, and perhaps AI are intelligent (discouting aliens and whatever else).
 
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MoonlessNight

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If intelligence is independent of medium and is defined mechanically (i.e. anything that follows a problem-solving algorithm) could the following things be intelligent:

A series of interactions between strands of DNA (either set up by humans or occuring naturally, feel free to give different answers)?

A highly advanced calculator that does nothing but add integers (but add them very, very, fast)?

The sum total of weather in the Earth's atmosphere?
 
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Merlin

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With such a vague definition, i'd say maybe.
 
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tcampen

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Until we truly understand our own brains and intellegence, I doubt we could design and build something with equal intellegence. Computers can perform certain functions better than humans, but abilities of the human brain are infinitely more complex than any computer or machine we could possibly build.

Hey, it might happen someday, but not in our lifetimes, or our even our distant relatives'.
 
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TeddyKGB

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Illuminatus said:
I'm unconvinced that strong AI is viable, merely based upon the existence of qualia.
It is probably the case that qualia are epiphenomenal. We treat qualia, incorrectly I say, as the end-product of a process instead of as the process itself.

Dennett's views on qualia make a lot of sense, to me anyway.
 
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ReluctantProphet

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The problem that you are going to have to settle is that one you mentioned before about the definition of intelligence. Intelligent people define things and only discuss when a definition is agreed upon or understood.

The problem with the word intelligence is that common people have used the word in its comparative form so much more than anything else, that they have accepted that the word only applies to the more highly intelligent beings, and anything less than some vague line drawn slightly under the level of human intelligence is considered un-intelligent. This kind of conceptualizing fails completely when examining anything closely. Thus to discuss who has intelligence and how much, you really have to get rid of the notion that only highly intelligent beings have any of it.

If you look merely at the fundamental concept of intelligence, then you see merely a problem solving process that could be very sophisticated, or could be extremely simple or any where in between. Without having a firm place to draw the line, you are stuck with just using the basic concept and accepting that the degree of intelligence is measured by the sophistication. That sophistication could be extremely complex, or could be extremely simple.

In the case of an extremely simply intelligence, even a calculator represents more than the basics.

Intelligence doesn't just have levels, it also has types. A person can solve one kind of problem very well but perhaps has great difficulty with another type. A different person could be just the reverse.

If you accept that intelligence is truly no more than the ability to problem solve (which is how my Webster's dictionary defines it), then yes, even a DNA is actually an intelligent entity to a limited degree.

Even the process of evolution itself is a problem solving process as well as many other naturally occurring phenomena.

The arguing between the evolutionist and the creationist can only be resolved by settling on a definition. After they settle on one, then the argument changes form and shortly they discover that they are both right.

The distinction between that which solves a problem and that which doesn't is that the non-problem solving entity does not correct toward any specific goal. This means that whatever you are talking about must be something that adjusts something in a particular direction despite disturbances to the contrary. The better it can handle interferences and complications, the more highly intelligent it is.

As far as the weather being an intelligent entity, I would have to ask for your limits as to what all you include into the category of "weather". Is the sun a part of weather or just one of the affecters? Is the ocean a part of the weather, or just a source for it's process? Is the wind a part of the weather, or just a result of it? What defines exactly what is weather and what is only a result or a source of and for weather?

Personally, I separate intelligence into 3 components,
-- 1) Input (senses)
-- 2) Reactive response (including memory from prior inputs)
-- 3) Output (decision to act)

All 3 of these must be present for anything to solve problems. The more complex yet harmonious the inner reactions are, the more intelligent the being will be assuming that it doesn’t ignore its senses entirely or choose to never make any final decisions. The more sophisticated the input matrix, the more potential for high intelligence something has. The more sophisticated the output or affecting potential, the more total intelligence will be present.

The reason that the input and output must be included in intelligence, is simply that the inner reactive responses are directly dependant on their sophistication. If the input senses are different, a problem might still be able to be solved, but it will mandate that a different method for solving it be derived. Any different method must inherently alter the final result either in precision or speed. The same is true of the output potentials. Anything that directly alters the algorithm, inherently controls the intelligence performance and thus how much and what type of intelligence the thing has.

Accuracy of intelligence is the only problem man has (defining his words word take away a great deal from the resultant stupidity).

 
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Illuminatus

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TeddyKGB said:
It is probably the case that qualia are epiphenomenal. We treat qualia, incorrectly I say, as the end-product of a process instead of as the process itself.

Dennett's views on qualia make a lot of sense, to me anyway.

I don't necessarily agree with Dennett's position. Personally, I fall more into John Searle's camp, but not extraordinarily so.
 
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variant

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As far as I know, you are a purely mechanical biochemical system so the answer to your question is yes.
 
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variant

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Humans are not currently aware of how to build a consciousness, as we are not currently aware of how ours works.
 
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Illuminatus

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variant said:
Humans are not currently aware of how to build a consciousness, as we are not currently aware of how ours works.

This is true. It's quite possible to define consciousness such that consciousness can be created mechanically. The opposite is also true. It's sort of a matter of semantics.
 
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ReluctantProphet

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variant said:
Humans are not currently aware of how to build a consciousness, as we are not currently aware of how ours works.
Why do you think that you have any idea what it is that all humanity doesn't know?

Why is it that people so readily accept that if anything is known, they must surely have heard about it? Yet they are so quick to proclaim that others are arrogant.

Consciousness is no mystery to a variety of people. Computers have been around for years demonstrating different aspects and consequences of consciousness. Any magic about it has long since been dismissed.

In effect, consciousness is basically similar to congress and the population. Activist groups would represent the emotions. Congress represents where all of those emotions vie for attention and persuasion and where outside and statistically gathered "objects" of clumped information are seen for analysis by the functioning of congress itself.

The analysis can go deeper. All emotions are well understood. Consciousness is well understood. The only thing "they" have trouble with is deciding what to do with it all. The same problem that you have.
 
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variant

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Illuminatus said:
This is true. It's quite possible to define consciousness such that consciousness can be created mechanically. The opposite is also true. It's sort of a matter of semantics.

I don't believe it is currently possible to define consciousness. And, I am not sure it is anything but a behavior driven description.

We use a behaviorist style test for other humans, which is the basis of the Turing test.

Looks like my consciousness = consciousness.

We could never verify objectively a consciousness in a AI as we can’t verify it in other humans, but we could be reasonably sure based on behavior.
 
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variant

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I didn't say it was magical, just that it hasn’t been recreated it yet.

Show me where it has and I will gladly retract that statement.

I don't think they have created any computers capable of having their own identity as I do, and thus I don't think they are conscious. IF a computer can be taught to THINK then it should be able to talk to me on a message board or such.

My brain is doing something a little more sophisticated than simple problem solving, or having a dynamic program that can cope with a variety of parameters.
 
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ReluctantProphet

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variant said:
I didn't say it was magical, just that it hasn’t been recreated it yet.

Show me where it has and I will gladly retract that statement.
So you honestly think that every government, every military, and every large business rushes to report to the media anything they have spent billions of dollars to develop for their own sake against potential enemies just so YOU can stay well informed?

How could they DARE be so presumptuous to do less?

You seriously think that Israel or China just can't wait to report to the entire world what they have been developing on concerning their decision making abilities and potentials for 40 years?

..amazing
 
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variant

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So, you don't have any proof?

Yeah, I am not sure some secret lab somewhere doesn’t understand consciousness to the point of recreating it. But failing any evidence that they do, I wouldn’t bother to worry about it.

That REALLY affects our discussion doesn’t it?

Maybe you would like to make some more unsubstantiated claims like these:


And I get called arrogent.
 
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ReluctantProphet

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The OP asked for opinion. I gave it. The OP didn't ask for explanation or reasoning why I would believe such. To state an opinion of what is, in answering the direct question, is not arrogance.

You made the statement that NO human knows such things else you would have known something about it. Yes, that is arrogance.

I happen to believe what I stated because the subject just happens to be something that I know a great deal about. But I also know that anything that I know, many others know as well. I also know that governments, militaries, and large corporations have all been developing strategies for utilizing processing in as much secrecy as they can manage.

It would be insane for any military to show all it knew about information processing to a potential enemy - and that means you.

30 years ago, I was working on military projects that have yet to be used in the open. And those were nothing compared to others even at that time.

But think about it. You know that technology advances exponentially. You know that "they" are in a position to have to keep their best behind closed doors. You know that they can see what you develop yet you cannot see what they develop. This gives them an even faster development rate. You know that this has been going on for at least 50 years. You know that the laser, for example was unheard of by the population for 20 years after the inventor came up with it.

And yet somehow you believe now that because you haven't heard them tell you all about what intelligence is and how it all works, even though this subject would be highly concerning to them, they just must still be totally ignorant on even what the word "consciousness" means.

Even the notion that a word cannot be defined is absurd in itself. A word is ALWAYS presumed with a definition within the person using it. They might not be able to explain that definition very well, but it isn't even a word without having one.


C'mon wake-up
 
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