The Two Witnesses

[mindlight]

In Revelation 11:3-13 there is an account of two male witnesses that will stand in a Jerusalem under judgment for her sins and overrun by gentiles. This occurs during the reign of the AntiChrist and the general oppression of that city by a global gentile order. These witnesses (symbolised by lampstands and olive trees) will stand like an island of Light and Life in a city of darkness and they will testify to Christ during a period of 42 months (3.5 Jewish years of 360 days). This witness occurs at a time when evil is given free reign for the time set for it. They appear similar in character to Moses and Elijah. They are clothed in Sackcloth and their message appears to be one of judgment and a call to repentance in expectation of the Returning King of Kings Jesus Christ. The Spirit of God equips them for this testimony giving them various powers that echo OT powers given to prophets there:

1) fire comes from their mouth and devours their enemies: (2 Kings 1)
2) They have power to shut up the sky so that it does not rain while they prophesy (1 Kings 17:1)
3) They have power to turn waters into blood (Exodus 7:17-21)
4) They have powers to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want

The devil is furious at them and the damage that their witness does to his plans. These witnesses though supernaturally powerful are not conquerors and are ultimately martyred like Jesus was also in this city. They are overpowered after the 42 months by the Beast that comes out of the Abyss
He just leaves their bodies in the street ( an effort at shaming them and what they stood for) where they are viewed by people from all over the world. Burial is refused them as these wicked people just want to gloat. This because the prophets had tormented them. The martyrdom of these prophets stands as a symbol of a worldwide attempt to crush the church but the temporary exultation of the evil people at their apparent victory over the church is shortlived.
3.5 days after dying the breath of God enters these witnesses and they stand up striking terror into those who were watching
A loud voice from heaven says "Come up here" and they ascend up to heaven in a cloud with their enemies watching
Then there is a severe earthquake that collapses 1/10th of the city killing 7000 people
Fear grips the survivors who glorify God.

I have some questions about this passage:

1) To what extent are the 7 trumpets, 7 seals and 7 bowls judgments coordinated by these witnesses. Or do the judgments called down by the witnesses operate on an independent path?

2) Do you think they are Moses and Elijah or someone else, why? What would be the qualification for such a witness, who or what kind of person would God choose for this role?

3) Why does God give them these 4 powers: fire to annihilate enemies, control of weather in the air, ability to turn water into blood, ability to strike the earth and human biology with plagues

4) To what extent do you think that the AntiChrist will be able to control the news feed from these 2 witnesses, will only the people of Jerusalem be able to hear their message?

5) Maybe a silly question, but how do they eat and drink at a time when there is no water, go to the toilet and sleep in such a highly public scenario. I doubt if the surrounding authorities would be that cooperative.

6) Given that the beast can probably read and knows that this is his scheduled moment why does he not simply try and change the script and burn up the bodies for instance. Why does evil do as it is told in this scenario?

7) Do you have an alternate reading of Rev 11:3-11

 

[Psalm 27]

In Revelation 11:3-13 there is an account of two male witnesses that will stand in a Jerusalem under judgment for her sins and overrun by gentiles. This occurs during the reign of the AntiChrist and the general oppression of that city by a global gentile order. These witnesses (symbolised by lampstands and olive trees) will stand like an island of Light and Life in a city of darkness and they will testify to Christ during a period of 42 months (3.5 Jewish years of 360 days). This witness occurs at a time when evil is given free reign for the time set for it. They appear similar in character to Moses and Elijah. They are clothed in Sackcloth and their message appears to be one of judgment and a call to repentance in expectation of the Returning King of Kings Jesus Christ. The Spirit of God equips them for this testimony giving them various powers that echo OT powers given to prophets there:

1) fire comes from their mouth and devours their enemies: (2 Kings 1)
2) They have power to shut up the sky so that it does not rain while they prophesy (1 Kings 17:1)
3) They have power to turn waters into blood (Exodus 7:17-21)
4) They have powers to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want

The devil is furious at them and the damage that their witness does to his plans. These witnesses though supernaturally powerful are not conquerors and are ultimately martyred like Jesus was also in this city. They are overpowered after the 42 months by the Beast that comes out of the Abyss
He just leaves their bodies in the street ( an effort at shaming them and what they stood for) where they are viewed by people from all over the world. Burial is refused them as these wicked people just want to gloat. This because the prophets had tormented them. The martyrdom of these prophets stands as a symbol of a worldwide attempt to crush the church but the temporary exultation of the evil people at their apparent victory over the church is shortlived.
3.5 days after dying the breath of God enters these witnesses and they stand up striking terror into those who were watching
A loud voice from heaven says "Come up here" and they ascend up to heaven in a cloud with their enemies watching
Then there is a severe earthquake that collapses 1/10th of the city killing 7000 people
Fear grips the survivors who glorify God.

I have some questions about this passage:

1) To what extent are the 7 trumpets, 7 seals and 7 bowls judgments coordinated by these witnesses. Or do the judgments called down by the witnesses operate on an independent path?

2) Do you think they are Moses and Elijah or someone else, why? What would be the qualification for such a witness, who or what kind of person would God choose for this role?

3) Why does God give them these 4 powers: fire to annihilate enemies, control of weather in the air, ability to turn water into blood, ability to strike the earth and human biology with plagues

4) To what extent do you think that the AntiChrist will be able to control the news feed from these 2 witnesses, will only the people of Jerusalem be able to hear their message?

5) Maybe a silly question, but how do they eat and drink at a time when there is no water, go to the toilet and sleep in such a highly public scenario. I doubt if the surrounding authorities would be that cooperative.

6) Given that the beast can probably read and knows that this is his scheduled moment why does he not simply try and change the script and burn up the bodies for instance. Why does evil do as it is told in this scenario?

7) Do you have an alternate reading of Rev 11:3-11

Moses and Elijah appeared at the transfiguration of Jesus.

Also, they were the only other people in The Bible to fast forty days

 

[Douggg]

6) Given that the beast can probably read and knows that this is his scheduled moment why does he not simply try and change the script and burn up the bodies for instance. Why does evil do as it is told in this scenario?

That would be admitting God is more powerful than himself.

Along the same lines, given all that has been said about the Antichrist and the end times, why doesn't the person just avoid the whole scenario all together from being the little horn, to being the prince who shall come, to becoming the Antichrist, King of Israel messiah, coming in his own name, to later revealing himself to be the man of sin, to later becoming the beast ?

My view is that the person is a Jew and his religion Judaism - which Jews think the entire Christian end times scenario is fairy tales, as well as everything in Revelation. So there is no reason in their minds to avoid what Christians say is coming.

 

[mindlight]

Moses and Elijah appeared at the transfiguration of Jesus.

Also, they were the only other people in The Bible to fast forty days

Not sure you could say that none of the others fasted 40 days. Also the discussion that took place at the Transfiguration does not automatically imply these are the two witnesses in Revelation. We simply do not know. Also if these are Moses and Elijah why are they not named. I like the idea that someone of similar character to these two will be chosen though. The one a married man with children and a leader of the community of Israel and the other a single man beset by troubles which he faced alone. The one intimately connected with the community of Gods people and the other a witness to Gods Sovereignty in human history controlling the weather and even the rise and fall of kings. The one the law giver the other the prophet. Two different kinds of witness to the Returning King in all his glory with two different pathways to this moment in history.

 

[mindlight]

That would be admitting God is more powerful than himself.

Along the same lines, given all that has been said about the Antichrist and the end times, why doesn't the person just avoid the whole scenario all together from being the little horn, to being the prince who shall come, to becoming the Antichrist, King of Israel messiah, coming in his own name, to later revealing himself to be the man of sin, to later becoming the beast ?

My view is that the person is a Jew and his religion Judaism - which Jews think the entire Christian end times scenario is fairy tales, as well as everything in Revelation. So there is no reason in their minds to avoid what Christians say is coming.

Must admit I am torn between two views here.

That on the one hand evil knows its fate and blindly follows the script to its doom as the path of least resistance,

On the other hand that there is a willful defiance and contempt for Gods word which nonetheless on honest reflection would have found that exactly what God had predicted for it had transpired.

If that honest reflection never occurs, which I suppose is more than likely, until it is too late, then you might be right. Also a Jews pride in his own studies and understanding might well blind him to the simple path laid out to him by the gospel as you say.

 

[Joyous Song]

Have you looked at Zechariah chapter 2 and 3? The lamp stand and olive trees are named there and there are two witnesses as well: Y'hoshua and Zare'babel. I believe reading this gives many additional insights into those two men.

 

[Berean Tim]

Luke's account has two "men" at the empty tomb. Luke also has two "men" at the ascension. What is it the Two Witnesses witness ? With Moses and Elijah showing up to minister to Jesus. They seem to me to be the likely candidates

 

[Psalm 27]

Not sure you could say that none of the others fasted 40 days. Also the discussion that took place at the Transfiguration does not automatically imply these are the two witnesses in Revelation. We simply do not know. Also if these are Moses and Elijah why are they not named. I like the idea that someone of similar character to these two will be chosen though. The one a married man with children and a leader of the community of Israel and the other a single man beset by troubles which he faced alone. The one intimately connected with the community of Gods people and the other a witness to Gods Sovereignty in human history controlling the weather and even the rise and fall of kings. The one the law giver the other the prophet. Two different kinds of witness to the Returning King in all his glory with two different pathways to this moment in history.

Exodus 34:28
So he (Moses) was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

1 kings 19:8
So he (Elijah) arose, and ate and drank; and he went in the strength of that food forty days and forty nights as far as Horeb, the mountain of God.

 

[TribulationSigns]

In Revelation 11:3-13 there is an account of two male witnesses that will stand in a Jerusalem under judgment for her sins and overrun by gentiles.

Two male witnesses? Nope! You need to read the Biblical Interpretation of Two Witnesses.

These witnesses (symbolised by lampstands and olive trees) will stand like an island of Light and Life in a city of darkness and they will testify to Christ during a period of 42 months (3.5 Jewish years of 360 days).

Where does that say this in Scripture? The two lampstands and two olives trees do not signify two men. You need to find God's definition for the Olives Trees and Lampstands first.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Along the same lines, given all that has been said about the Antichrist and the end times, why doesn't the person just avoid the whole scenario all together from being the little horn, to being the prince who shall come, to becoming the Antichrist, King of Israel messiah, coming in his own name, to later revealing himself to be the man of sin, to later becoming the beast ?

Oh, brother...The little horn is not a man. You got the wrong prince. There won't be "King of Israel" coming in Israel pretend to be Messiah or "beast". All you have is literal speculations and private interpretations and are not what God talked about.

My view is that the person is a Jew and his religion Judaism

There won't be a "single" person who will be a Jew. You totally misunderstood what God talked about the "antichrist", "little horn", "beast", etc. here.

 

[Douggg]

Oh, brother...The little horn is not a man. You got the wrong prince. There won't be "King of Israel" coming in Israel pretend to be Messiah or "beast". All you have is literal speculations and private interpretations and are not what God talked about.



There won't be a "single" person who will be a Jew. You totally misunderstood what God talked about the "antichrist", "little horn", "beast", etc. here.

What don't you start another thread with a poll - the little horn in Daniel 7 is (a) a man (b) whatever you claim. And see if anyone agrees with you. And not take this thread off course.

 

[mindlight]

Have you looked at Zechariah chapter 2 and 3? The lamp stand and olive trees are named there and there are two witnesses as well: Y'hoshua and Zare'babel. I believe reading this gives many additional insights into those two men.

I just read the two chapters, but must admit am struggling to see an obvious connection. Can you explain how these passages connect to 2 witnesses

 

[Goodhuman]

It is Enoch and Elijah.

 

[mindlight]

Luke's account has two "men" at the empty tomb. Luke also has two "men" at the ascension. What is it the Two Witnesses witness ? With Moses and Elijah showing up to minister to Jesus. They seem to me to be the likely candidates

You are referring to Luke 23 and Acts 1 which both refer to angels not human witnesses. This is clarified in Luke 23:24 and in Acts 1 by fact that apostles did not recognise Moses and Elijah whom they had already met at transfiguration

 

[imsaneru]

Given that the beast can probably read and knows that this is his scheduled moment why does he not simply try and change the script and burn up the bodies for instance. Why does evil do as it is told in this scenario?

Probably because the people who he is deceiving are not bible reading christians and know nothing of what you and I know. We probably should try and look at it from the secular perspective.

 

[mindlight]

Exodus 34:28
So he (Moses) was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

1 kings 19:8
So he (Elijah) arose, and ate and drank; and he went in the strength of that food forty days and forty nights as far as Horeb, the mountain of God.

Yes that is the positive affirmation that like Jesus both men fasted 40 days. But it does not affirm them as THE two witnesses and if this is the criteria that other potential candidates also did an unmentioned 40 day fast

 

[Joyous Song]

I just read the two chapters, but must admit am struggling to see an obvious connection. Can you explain how these passages connect to 2 witnesses

I talk with my husband about putting together a in depth study of this after we complete uploading Is.28. It may talk a few weeks so start looking for it then.

 

[TribulationSigns]

What don't you start another thread with a poll - the little horn in Daniel 7 is (a) a man (b) whatever you claim. And see if anyone agrees with you. And not take this thread off course.

The consensus is not the arbiter of truth. God's unadulterated Word, I testified, is. I have shown you on other threads with chapters and verses to show your errors regarding little horn in the past which you obviously have not received. Therefore, don't tell me, "set a poll and see if this is what X, Y and Z believe." That is IRRELEVANT. You remained refused with your speculations.

If you start to introduce your doctrine about Little Horn on this thread, you are responsible for taking this thread off course. I only testified against your erroneous position.

 

[mindlight]

Two male witnesses? Nope! You need to read the Biblical Interpretation of Two Witnesses.



Where does that say this in Scripture? The two lampstands and two olives trees do not signify two men. You need to find God's definition for the Olives Trees and Lampstands first.

I understand you take a Symbolist approach to revelation. You connect these symbols to a wide range of biblical references in a voluminous exposee as in your link. My view is essentially false in your view because of its literalism which you believe is not the way that scripture works and explains itself.

My disagreement with this approach is bible wide. God speaks in history at definite moments and places and through persons. This is the way He consistently works all the way through scripture and most especially in the incarnation of God in history as the man Jew Jesus Christ in first century Galilee and Judea. Whatever symbols or metaphors we read in scripture invariably have this literal historical connection and indeed very often it provides us with keys to unlock the deeper spiritual references.

Revelation 11:3-13 specifies 2 men in a definite location which has to be Jerusalem as Jesus was cruicified in no other city

 

[Sorn]

In Revelation 11:3-13 there is an account of two male witnesses that will stand in a Jerusalem under judgment for her sins and overrun by gentiles. This occurs during the reign of the AntiChrist and the general oppression of that city by a global gentile order. These witnesses (symbolised by lampstands and olive trees) will stand like an island of Light and Life in a city of darkness and they will testify to Christ during a period of 42 months (3.5 Jewish years of 360 days). This witness occurs at a time when evil is given free reign for the time set for it. They appear similar in character to Moses and Elijah. They are clothed in Sackcloth and their message appears to be one of judgment and a call to repentance in expectation of the Returning King of Kings Jesus Christ. The Spirit of God equips them for this testimony giving them various powers that echo OT powers given to prophets there:

1) fire comes from their mouth and devours their enemies: (2 Kings 1)
2) They have power to shut up the sky so that it does not rain while they prophesy (1 Kings 17:1)
3) They have power to turn waters into blood (Exodus 7:17-21)
4) They have powers to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want

The devil is furious at them and the damage that their witness does to his plans. These witnesses though supernaturally powerful are not conquerors and are ultimately martyred like Jesus was also in this city. They are overpowered after the 42 months by the Beast that comes out of the Abyss
He just leaves their bodies in the street ( an effort at shaming them and what they stood for) where they are viewed by people from all over the world. Burial is refused them as these wicked people just want to gloat. This because the prophets had tormented them. The martyrdom of these prophets stands as a symbol of a worldwide attempt to crush the church but the temporary exultation of the evil people at their apparent victory over the church is shortlived.
3.5 days after dying the breath of God enters these witnesses and they stand up striking terror into those who were watching
A loud voice from heaven says "Come up here" and they ascend up to heaven in a cloud with their enemies watching
Then there is a severe earthquake that collapses 1/10th of the city killing 7000 people
Fear grips the survivors who glorify God.

I have some questions about this passage:

1) To what extent are the 7 trumpets, 7 seals and 7 bowls judgments coordinated by these witnesses. Or do the judgments called down by the witnesses operate on an independent path?

2) Do you think they are Moses and Elijah or someone else, why? What would be the qualification for such a witness, who or what kind of person would God choose for this role?

3) Why does God give them these 4 powers: fire to annihilate enemies, control of weather in the air, ability to turn water into blood, ability to strike the earth and human biology with plagues

4) To what extent do you think that the AntiChrist will be able to control the news feed from these 2 witnesses, will only the people of Jerusalem be able to hear their message?

5) Maybe a silly question, but how do they eat and drink at a time when there is no water, go to the toilet and sleep in such a highly public scenario. I doubt if the surrounding authorities would be that cooperative.

6) Given that the beast can probably read and knows that this is his scheduled moment why does he not simply try and change the script and burn up the bodies for instance. Why does evil do as it is told in this scenario?

7) Do you have an alternate reading of Rev 11:3-11

Here is a very interesting take on the two witness and their identity