The Two Wills of God

[nasa1]

Hello,


I really need some help in the teaching of the two wills of God.


I realize now that this must be true. For example, ok, the Bible says that Jesus is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. It's not like God chose the Israelites to be a light to the gentiles and when they failed, decided to come down Himself and save His elect. Yet, you can see passages in the Bible where God seems to say that His first plan was to use the Israelites to be His chosen elect people, to give them the priesthood, etc. Now, everyone in Christ has those blessings instead.


Or the Adam and Eve story. Could we actually believe that it was God's intent to have the world that way, knowing what would happen, and already deciding on what to do about sin?


Or all the times God tells the Israelites to repent and obey, knowing they never would, even promising them blessings if they would obey - yet knowing that they never would and that the Kingdom would be eventually taken from them and given to another who would produce the fruit of it.


So, yes, God must have two wills - one for mankind to repent and obey, yet He knows they cannot do this unless He chooses them and enables them to come to the Savior. God says He hates sin, and I believe Him - one would think that He would just draw everyone by irresistable grace and change all mankind's hearts - but He does not do that either.


Our God is an awesome God, and no one really knows Him except the Spirit that searches the deep things of God, and the Son, who knows Him and loves Him. Who can understand what He does, or why He does it? He is not our buddy, as many Christians make Him out to be, like Rick Warren et al. He cannot be bribed, as Kenneth Copeland and all Word of Faith company do. You cannot choose Him, He must choose you. You can will it and run but in the end, it all depends on God, who has mercy on whom He will have mercy. And He has chosen to have mercy on me and my son, Justin. He pitied us and I am grateful for His love!


I praise you, Sovereign and Holy God! I bow before your throne and ask for help in my time of need.


Please pray for me.


Sincerely, Theresa

 

[wnwall]

You may find Jonathan Edwards' Concerning the Divine Decrees helpful. I think he explains it better than anyone.

When a distinction is made between God’s revealed will and his secret will, or his will of command and decree, will is certainly in that distinction taken in two senses. His will of decree, is not his will in the same sense as his will of command is. Therefore, it is no difficulty at all to suppose, that the one may be otherwise than the other: his will in both senses is his inclination. But when we say he wills virtue, or loves virtue, or the happiness of his creature; thereby is intended, that virtue, or the creature’s happiness, absolutely and simply considered, is agreeable to the inclination of his nature. His will of decree is, his inclination to a thing, not as to that thing absolutely and simply, but with respect to the universality of things, that have been, are, or shall be. So God, though he hates a thing as it is simply, may incline to it with reference to the universality of things. Though he hates sin in itself, yet he may will to permit it, for the greater promotion of holiness in this universality, including all things, and at all times. So, though he has no inclination to a creature’s misery, considered absolutely, yet he may will it, for the greater promotion of happiness in this universality. . . .

It is a proper and excellent thing for infinite glory to shine forth; and for the same reason, it is proper that the shining forth of God’s glory should be complete; that is, that all parts of his glory should shine forth, that every beauty should be proportionably effulgent, that the beholder may have a proper notion of God. It is not proper that one glory should be exceedingly manifested, and another not at all; for then the effulgence would not answer the reality. For the same reason it is not proper that one should be manifested exceedingly, and another but very little. It is highly proper that the effulgent glory of God should answer his real excellency; that the splendour should be answerable to the real and essential glory, for the same reason that it is proper and excellent for God to glorify himself at all. Thus it is necessary, that God’s awful majesty, his authority and dreadful greatness, justice, and holiness, should be manifested. But this could not be, unless sin and punishment had been decreed; so that the shining forth of God’s glory would be very imperfect, both because these parts of divine glory would not shine forth as the others do, and also the glory of his goodness, love, and holiness would be faint without them; nay, they could scarcely shine forth at all. If it were not right that God should decree and permit and punish sin, there could be no manifestation of God’s holiness in hatred of sin, or in showing any preference, in his providence, of godliness before it. There would be no manifestation of God’s grace or true goodness, if there was no sin to be pardoned, no misery to be saved from. How much happiness soever he bestowed, his goodness would not be so much prized and admired, and the sense of it not so great, as we have elsewhere shown.

And here's a short clip of John Piper speaking on the problem of evil that might help.

To put it in my own words, I think it's important to remember the cross when discussing the two wills of God. All of the promises made to the Israelites, all of the prophecies of the Old Testament, all of the ceremonial law, everything pointed to one historical, glorious, Christ-exalting event -- Jesus' death and resurrection. Everything God has planned from the beginning of creation has been planned so that his Son could die in our place, defeating death, and receiving all the glory, praise, and adoration he deserves. The Father created the world to celebrate the adoration he has for his Son, so in creating the world he did it in such a way that his Son would receive the most praise.

If you like Edwards, his Dissertation Concerning the End for Which God Created the World may be helpful as well. It's available online at http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/OnlineBooks/ByTitle/ in part two of the book God's Passion for His Glory.

God bless,
Nathan

 

[UMP]

Or the Adam and Eve story. Could we actually believe that it was God's intent to have the world that way, knowing what would happen, and already deciding on what to do about sin?

Yes,
The only other alternative is that the devil tripped up God and ruined His plans. If this thwarted God can be trumped by satan once, he can certainly be again, and in other matters as well. Is our salvation secure in this (so called) God? I would say no. However this is NOT the God of the Bible. If your faith is in the creator of heaven and earth who upholds ALL things by the word of His power, to whom NONE can say "what doest thou". Yes indeed, in HIM our salvation is secure and He planned and purposed the whole thing.

Daniel 4:
[35] And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Isaiah 46:
[10] Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:


To more specifically answer your question, Pink does a great job of explaining, in a back door sort of way:

But right here a very formidable difficulty confronts us. From God’s standpoint the result of Adam’s probation was not left in uncertainty. Before He formed him out of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, God knew exactly how the appointed test would terminate. With this statement every Christian reader must be in accord, for, to deny God’s foreknowledge is to deny His omniscience, and this is to repudiate one of the fundamental attributes of Deity. But we must go further: not only had God a perfect foreknowledge of the outcome of Adam’s trial, not only did His omniscient eye see Adam eating of the forbidden fruit, but He decreed beforehand that he should do so. This is evident not only from the general fact that nothing happens save that which the Creator and Governor of the universe has eternally purposed, but also from the express declaration of Scripture that Christ as a Lamb "verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world" (1 Pet. 1:20). If, then, God had foreordained before the foundation of the world that Christ should, in due time, be offered as a Sacrifice for sin, then it is unmistakably evident that God had also foreordained sin should enter the world, and if so, that Adam should transgress and fall. In full harmony with this, God Himself placed in Eden the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and also allowed the Serpent to enter and deceive Eve.


Here then is the difficulty: If God has eternally decreed that Adam should eat of the tree, how could he be held responsible not to eat of it? Formidable as the problem appears, nevertheless, it is capable of a solution, a solution, moreover, which can be grasped even by the finite mind. The solution is to be found in the distinction between God’s secret will and His revealed will. As stated in Appendix I, human responsibility is measured by our knowledge of God’s revealed will; what God has told us, not what He has not told us, is the definer of our duty. So it was with Adam.

That God had decreed sin should enter this world through the disobedience of our first parents was a secret hid in His own breast. Of this Adam knew nothing, and that made all the difference so far as his responsibility was concerned. Adam was quite unacquainted with the Creator’s hidden counsels. What concerned him was God’s revealed will. And that was plain! God had forbidden him to eat of the tree, and that was enough. But God went further: He even warned Adam of the dire consequences which would follow should he disobey—death would be the penalty. Transgression, then, on the part of Adam was entirely excuseless. Created with no evil nature in him, with a will in perfect equipoise, placed in the fairest environment, given dominion over all the lower creation, allowed full liberty with only a single restriction upon him, plainly warned of what would follow an act of insubordination to God, there was every possible inducement for Adam to preserve his innocence; and, should he fail and fall, then by every principle of righteousness his blood must lie upon his own head, and his guilt be imputed to all in whose behalf he acted.

Had God disclosed to Adam His purpose that sin would enter this world, and that He had decreed Adam should eat of the forbidden fruit, it is obvious that Adam could not have been held responsible for the eating of it. But in that God withheld the knowledge of His counsels from Adam, his accountability was not interfered with.
Again; had God created Adam with a bias toward evil, then human responsibility had been impaired and man’s probation merely one in name. But inasmuch as Adam was included among that which God, at the end of the sixth day, pronounced "Very good", and, inasmuch as man was made "upright" (Eccl. 7:29),then every mouth must be "stopped" and "the whole world" must acknowledge itself "guilty before God" (Rom. 3:19).

Once more, it needs to be carefully borne in mind that God did not decree that Adam should sin and then inject into Adam an inclination to evil, in order that His decree might be carried out. No; "God cannot be tempted, neither tempteth He any man" (James 1:13). Instead, when the Serpent came to tempt Eve, God caused her to remember His command forbidding to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and of the penalty attached to disobedience! Thus, though God had decreed the Fall, in no sense was He the Author of Adam’s sin, and at no point was Adam’s responsibility impaired. Thus may we admire and adore the "manifold wisdom of God", in devising a way whereby His eternal decree should be accomplished, and yet the responsibility of His creatures be preserved intact.

Perhaps a further word should be added concerning the decretive will of God, particularly in its relation to evil. First of all we take the high ground that, whatever things God does or permits, are right, just, and good, simply because God does or permits them. When Luther gave answer to the question, "Whence it was that Adam was permitted to fall, and corrupt his whole posterity; when God could have prevented him from falling, etc", he said, "God is a Being whose will acknowledges no cause: neither is it for us to prescribe rules to His sovereign pleasure, or call Him to account for what He does. He has neither superior nor equal; and His will is the rule of all things. He did not thus will such and such things because they were right, and He was bound to will them; but they are therefore equitable and right because He wills them. The will of man, indeed, may be influenced and moved; but God’s will never can. To assert the contrary is to undeify Him" (De Servo, Arb. c/ 153).

To affirm that God decreed the entrance of sin into His universe, and that He foreordained all its fruits and activities, is to say that which, at first may shock the reader; but reflection should show that it is far more shocking to insist that sin has invaded His dominions against His will, and that its exercise is outside His jurisdiction: for in such a case where would be His omnipotency? No; to recognize that God has foreordained all the activities of evil, is to see that He is the Governor of sin: His will determines its exercise, His power regulates its bounds (Ps. 76:10). He is neither the Inspirer nor the Infuser of sin in any of His creatures, but He is its Master, by which we mean God’s management of the wicked is so entire that, they can do nothing save that which His hand and counsel, from everlasting, determined should be done.

Though nothing contrary to holiness and righteousness can ever emanate from God, yet He has, for His own wise ends, ordained His creatures to fall into sin. Had sin never been permitted, how could the justice of God have been displayed in punishing it? How could the wisdom of God have been manifested in so wondrously over-ruling it? How could the grace of God have been exhibited in pardoning it? How could the power of God have been exercised in subduing it? A very solemn and striking proof of Christ’s acknowledgment of God’s decretal of sin is seen in His treatment of Judas. The Saviour knew full well that Judas would betray Him, yet we never read that He expostulated with him! Instead, He said to him, "That thou doest, do quickly" (John 13 :27)! Yet, mark this was said after he had received the sop and Satan had taken possession of his heart. Judas was already prepared for and determined on his traitorous work, therefore did Christ permissively (bowing to His Father’s ordination) bid him go forth to his awful work.

Thus, though God is not the Author of sin, and though sin is contrary to His holy nature, yet the existence and operations of it are not contrary to His will, but subservient to it. God never tempts man to sin, but He has, by His eternal counsels (which He is now executing), determined its course. Moreover, as we have shown in chapter 8, though God has decreed man’s sins, yet is man responsible not to commit them, and blamable because he does. Strikingly were these two sides of this awful subject brought together by Christ in that statement of His: "Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come (because God has foreordained them); but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh" (Matt. 18:7). So, too, though all which took place at Calvary was by the "determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God" (Acts 2:23),nevertheless, "wicked hands" crucified the Lord of glory, and, in consequence, His blood has righteously rested upon them and on their children. High mysteries are these, yet it is both our happy privilege and bounden duty to humbly receive whatsoever God has been pleased to reveal concerning them in His Word of Truth.
http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Sovereignty/appendix_02.htm

A.W. Pink

 

[nasa1]

Thanks guys, this subject is quite difficult, but I know God will help me to understand as much as I am able to.

NASA

 

[heymikey80]

Please keep in mind that these things are hard, and understanding them is not some absolute necessity. God makes you stand, not your knowledge. Just a hope that you won't fear what you would learn here.


One thing I've noticed about history -- some of the best results come from the worst offenses. I know that's a weird thought.

But it seems to be true.

When I read something like Philippians 2, I see something a youth leader taught about a few years ago: "The way up is down." That the glory of Christ is in His stooping. It is so powerful, His stooping to save us. And our stooping to help others -- it is also powerful, even though a pale reflection of His.

But the way up is down.

When I look at God organizing all of history, I see that. I see God organizing the world to accomplish something far, far better than if He took "the high road". The idea is that humans would've been best if always they were perfect performers, growing outside corruption. Forever.

But if the way up is down ... ?

What we see as the way down ... it's not, it's the way up. God's making it this way.

Again, it's not seeing sin as a wonderful thing. It's seeing such a depth of grief over sin, such a powerlessness, that we cry out for God's rescue. The way up is down.

I'm not sure of this in detail. It's just something I've noticed about history. I'm not even sure why it's this way. But it seems to be happening this way.

 

[Elect]

Hello,


I really need some help in the teaching of the two wills of God.


I realize now that this must be true. For example, ok, the Bible says that Jesus is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. It's not like God chose the Israelites to be a light to the gentiles and when they failed, decided to come down Himself and save His elect. Yet, you can see passages in the Bible where God seems to say that His first plan was to use the Israelites to be His chosen elect people, to give them the priesthood, etc. Now, everyone in Christ has those blessings instead.


Or the Adam and Eve story. Could we actually believe that it was God's intent to have the world that way, knowing what would happen, and already deciding on what to do about sin?


Or all the times God tells the Israelites to repent and obey, knowing they never would, even promising them blessings if they would obey - yet knowing that they never would and that the Kingdom would be eventually taken from them and given to another who would produce the fruit of it.


So, yes, God must have two wills - one for mankind to repent and obey, yet He knows they cannot do this unless He chooses them and enables them to come to the Savior. God says He hates sin, and I believe Him - one would think that He would just draw everyone by irresistable grace and change all mankind's hearts - but He does not do that either.


Our God is an awesome God, and no one really knows Him except the Spirit that searches the deep things of God, and the Son, who knows Him and loves Him. Who can understand what He does, or why He does it? He is not our buddy, as many Christians make Him out to be, like Rick Warren et al. He cannot be bribed, as Kenneth Copeland and all Word of Faith company do. You cannot choose Him, He must choose you. You can will it and run but in the end, it all depends on God, who has mercy on whom He will have mercy. And He has chosen to have mercy on me and my son, Justin. He pitied us and I am grateful for His love!


I praise you, Sovereign and Holy God! I bow before your throne and ask for help in my time of need.


Please pray for me.


Sincerely, Theresa

God is not a schizophrenic. He does not have two wills. He has one and He is working it out to every jot and title that He has determined from the beginning. He has determined and declared the end from the beginning and the means to that end.

Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Isa 46:11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Dan 4:34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:
Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

 

[Canuckmom]

I don't know if there is a Scripture reference for my thoughts, but I always saw the Bible teaching there is God's secret will and His revealed will. Such as He wills that we obey His commands, yet often in His all wise sovereign purpose He allows His creatures to disobey His revealed will. That would be God secret will being carried out. Nevertheless we are responsible for our sins.

 

[wnwall]

I don't know if there is a Scripture reference for my thoughts, but I always saw the Bible teaching there is God's secret will and His revealed will. Such as He wills that we obey His commands, yet often in His all wise sovereign purpose He allows His creatures to disobey His revealed will. That would be God secret will being carried out. Nevertheless we are responsible for our sins.

Agreed. When we speak of the two wills of God we aren't speaking of God wanting two different things. We're talking about two different ways in which the English language (and probably other languages) use the world will. It is not God's will in law that men murder, but it was God's sovereign will that Jesus be murdered, as it is God's sovereign will that all murders that happen happen.

God sovereignly desires that evil exist because of the good that comes from it while grieving over the evil itself.

A good example is the installment of the king in Israel during Samuel's day. The people rejected God as their king and wanted a human king -- that was against God's will in his desire for how those people would behave; it was sin. But God sovereignly brought about the installation of a lineage of human kings so that the Messiah would have a lineage to come from and rightfully rule as both man and God as king of Israel. It was God's sovereign will that a human kingship be established in Israel from which his Son would come (see Piper's The Sinful Origin of the Son of David).

This is what we mean when we speak of the two wills of God.

 

[cygnusx1]

Jesus prayed |"not my will but Thine be done" and He is God , yes God has at the very least two parts to His will , I would say three or four parts !

 

[xapis]

Would it be appropriate to say the God has one will (unity) with multiple aspects?

 

[cygnusx1]

Would it be appropriate to say the God has one will (unity) with multiple aspects?

yes bro , that is more or less how John Calvin saw it

 

[heymikey80]

Would it be appropriate to say the God has one will (unity) with multiple aspects?

I think that's an interesting way to put it, but in debate it would be a "foot in the door" to introduce some really wild ideas.

I try to emphasize, God's intent is to ordain events in creation in such a way that His ultimate intent results. These events are also obviously ordained in such a way that God's nature of holiness is not violated. But it's quite clear from both the Bible and from examining creation, creation is not free of sin.

God is not involved in our sinning -- it's actually a lack of some awareness or involvement with God whereby sin is shown to be sin.

Yet God knows what sin is. He knows about it so well that He can make good come from evil. It would be absurd to think the God of this Universe were perplexed about how to deal with our sin. He's the Only One Who can deal with our sin, now.

 

[Librarian]

I really need some help in the teaching of the two wills of God.

If the truth be told there is only one will of God however because we humans are so finite in our ability to grasp God we speak of two wills. The first is God's will of decree and the other is his will of command. God's will of decree concerns that which he has purposed to do and is not for us to pry into. God's will of command is that by which he makes known our duty to him.

I hope this brief explanation helps a little.