The twentieth century's foremost Sabbatarian - SDA perspective?

[SoldierOfTheKing]

He was the most well known and influential Sabbatarian of the twentieth century. His ministry, at its peak, was larger than that of Billy Graham and Oral Roberts combined. The literature and broadcasts of the church he pastored reached millions of people on every continent.

The SDA church gained many members as a result of his teaching on the Sabbath, and when the church he pastored crashed and burned back in the 90s, thousands of former members became SDA.

The man I am referring to is Herbert W. Armstrong. What are the common additutes toward him and his ministry among Trad SDA's?

 

[happywiththelord]

sorry, i have been an adventist for 12 years and have never heard of this guy.

 

[OntheDL]

He was the most well known and influential Sabbatarian of the twentieth century. His ministry, at its peak, was larger than that of Billy Graham and Oral Roberts combined. The literature and broadcasts of the church he pastored reached millions of people on every continent.

The SDA church gained many members as a result of his teaching on the Sabbath, and when the church he pastored crashed and burned back in the 90s, thousands of former members became SDA.

The man I am referring to is Herbert W. Armstrong. What are the common additutes toward him and his ministry among Trad SDA's?

The SDA teachings and that of WCG have almost nothing else in common except for the sabbath doctrine.

What specifics are you looking for?

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

I was looking for the how SDA's view the WCG as a whole, I didn't have a specific doctrine in mind. So you have pretty much answered my question as far as your position is concerned, although you can elaborate if you like.

Anybody else care to comment?

 

[synger]

I was active in the WWCG for a time when I was in college. Though I've moved on to more orthodox doctrines, it really made me study some of the areas of Scripture I'd never paid much attention to before. Weekly Sabbath-keeping was not the only Old Testament holy days they kept, but his real emphasis was on the impending end times. He taught that the end of days was soon, and that the people who emigrated from Britain to America were descended from the ten lost tribes of Israel.

 

[DarylFawcett]

Wasn't Herbert W. Armstrong the founder of the WWCG?

 

[happywiththelord]

what does this group believe? i know sygner said some, but what more?

 

[OntheDL]

what does this group believe? i know sygner said some, but what more?

They believe in the 7th day sabbath is the biblical sabbath that Sunday observance has no scriptural backing. They also keep the annual feast days and believe in the British Israelism (meaning the Europeans are the lost 10 tribes)... I think H. W. Armstrong also predicted the date of Christ's return, to be shortly after the collapse of USSR, if I remember it correctly.

 

[happywiththelord]

interesting!!

 

[synger]

The link I provided offers some of the doctrine as well. The things I remember most were keeping pseudo-kosher (no "unclean" animals, but not so far as separating milk and meat), the heavy emphasis on tithing, and the emphasis on piety (little/no makeup, modest dress, but not so far as dresses-only). Those were the practical things.

They were adventist (not Adventist) in their view that Christ was coming Real Soon Now, and they were my first introduction to the idea of soul sleep. They also introduced me to the concept that all humans will get a "second chance" to hear the Gospel and make a decision after their resurrection, so that all the world would be "without excuse". It was the first "universalist" doctrine I'd ever heard.

And while I disagree with the majority of their doctrine now (and as I mentioned, they've changed most of it to be more mainstream after Armstrong's death), I am very grateful that God led me to them... and led me away again. From them I gained a healthy hunger for Scripture. They always said "don't believe what I say, look in the BIble!" Of course, then they'd tell you what the Bible said... but when I got away from that and just studied if more on my own, I found out they were wrong on many things. But still, that hunger has persisted. It was because of my involvement with them that I first read the Bible all the way through, rather than a bit here and a bit there.

All things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

First off, I want to say that it is not my intention to have this thread moved to Discussion and Debate. I posted this in the Trad subforum because I already have a pretty good idea of what the Progs and the other formers are going to say. Although synger, since you have personal experience with WCG I welcome your continued input.

If the moderators feel that it is necessary to move this thread, then I would prefer to continue this discussion by PM with those who wish to do so.

That said, there are a few clarifications that I feel I need to make. Mr. Armstrong didn't actually give a date for Christ's return. He wrote a booklet in the 50s called "1975 in prophecy" about the events that he believed would immediately precede the return of Christ, in which 1975 was given as a hypothetical date. (He didn't live to see fall of the Soviet Union) However, owing to that booklet many people in the church came to believe that Christ actually would return in 1975. (I've heard this first hand from people who were in the church at the time.)

Also, I don't think it's accurate to say that the church teaches that people receive a "second chance" at salvation after death. A second chance implies a first. What Mr. Armstrong taught is that God is not desperately trying to save the world at this time, but letting the world go its own way and calling a select few to salvation now so that they will be able to witness to the rest of humanity when they are resurrected at the end of the Millennium. He expressly taught that those who were being called in this age and rejected that calling would not receive another chance to repent after death.

My reasons for starting this thread are actually rather personal. I'm a former SDA who now attends at the United Church of God, the largest church to emerge out of the old Worldwide Church of God after Joseph Tkach hijacked it (that's another story...). Needless to say, my thinking is not in line with the other former Adventists on this forum. Synger's assessment of the old WCG is pretty close to how I view the SDA church now:

I am very grateful that God led me to them... and led me away again. From them I gained a healthy hunger for Scripture. They always said "don't believe what I say, look in the BIble!" Of course, then they'd tell you what the Bible said... but when I got away from that and just studied if more on my own, I found out they were wrong on many things. But still, that hunger has persisted. It was because of my involvement with them that I first read the Bible all the way through, rather than a bit here and a bit there.

Now that I've made the break, I'm curious as to how my former co-religionists view the church I now attend. I imagine most Progs and formers would say that I jumped out of the frying pan and into the fire, but I wasn't sure how the Trads would see it.

 

[honorthesabbath]

SOK--since I have no idea the full teachings of the UCOG, I would be no help to you. But as always when I hear of someone leaving the SDA church, I can't imagine how they could embrace any other teachings.

BTW---isn't the UCOG charismatic?

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

No, in fact it takes quite a dim view of that sort of thing. The Pentecostal churches that go under the name "Church of God" have very different teachings from those of the Sabbath-keeping Churches of God.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

First off, I want to say that it is not my intention to have this thread moved to Discussion and Debate. I posted this in the Trad subforum because I already have a pretty good idea of what the Progs and the other formers are going to say. Although synger, since you have personal experience with WCG I welcome your continued input.

If the moderators feel that it is necessary to move this thread, then I would prefer to continue this discussion by PM with those who wish to do so.

That said, there are a few clarifications that I feel I need to make. Mr. Armstrong didn't actually give a date for Christ's return. He wrote a booklet in the 50s called "1975 in prophecy" about the events that he believed would immediately precede the return of Christ, in which 1975 was given as a hypothetical date. (He didn't live to see fall of the Soviet Union) However, owing to that booklet many people in the church came to believe that Christ actually would return in 1975. (I've heard this first hand from people who were in the church at the time.)

Also, I don't think it's accurate to say that the church teaches that people receive a "second chance" at salvation after death. A second chance implies a first. What Mr. Armstrong taught is that God is not desperately trying to save the world at this time, but letting the world go its own way and calling a select few to salvation now so that they will be able to witness to the rest of humanity when they are resurrected at the end of the Millennium. He expressly taught that those who were being called in this age and rejected that calling would not receive another chance to repent after death.

My reasons for starting this thread are actually rather personal. I'm a former SDA who now attends at the United Church of God, the largest church to emerge out of the old Worldwide Church of God after Joseph Tkach hijacked it (that's another story...). Needless to say, my thinking is not in line with the other former Adventists on this forum. Synger's assessment of the old WCG is pretty close to how I view the SDA church now:

Now that I've made the break, I'm curious as to how my former co-religionists view the church I now attend. I imagine most Progs and formers would say that I jumped out of the frying pan and into the fire, but I wasn't sure how the Trads would see it.

FELLOWSHIP POST FROM BFA

I have a question. Is it true that the current WCG attaches no particular significance to the seventh day of the week and could no longer be considered "sabbatarian?"

BFA

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

Sadly, yes it is. In fact that is why United split from Worldwide. Back in 1995, Joseph Tkach required all WCG ministers to state from the pulpit that the Sabbath and the annual Holy Days were Old Covenant ordinances not binding on Christians. Those ministers who refused to do so were forced out of the church, and so UCG was formed.

 

[Hansen]

Soldier of the King.
I find the comparison between Armstrong and Billy Graham incredible. Where did you get your information regarding the influence and popularity of Mr. Armstrong?

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

Since the information is common knowledge, and as far as I'm aware not disputed by anyone, I'll just quote the Wikipedia articles:

"On January 5, 1968, the Radio Church of God was renamed the Worldwide Church of God.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Armstrong#cite_note-30 Shortly before, the church began to broadcast a television version of The World Tomorrow. The program would eventually expand to 382 U.S. television stations, and 36 television outlets internationally, dwarfing televangelists Jerry Falwell, Jimmy Swaggart, Oral Roberts, and Jim Baker."

Wikipedia article, Herbert Armstrong

"At its height in the mid-1980s the Plain Truth had a monthly circulation of eight million in seven languages..."

Wikipedia article, The Plain Truth

Most estimates put WCG membership at the time of Mr. Armstrong's death at between 120,000-150,000. I've heard personally from members of UCG that total attendance at the 1986 Feast of Tabernacles was over 143,000.

 

[Hansen]

Common knowledge? I think not.

Jerry Falwell, Jimmy Swaggart, Oral Roberts, and Jim Baker." Those guys were nobodies in 1968. On the other hand, Billy Graham was holding large crusades in the early sixties when the names above were virtually unknown.

I don't believe that Mr. Armstrong was nearly as influential as it being made out here. I doubt the accuracy of the Wikipedia entry as well. If this is really important to you, you should come up with something more substantial.

It is believed by some that the teaching of Robert Brinsmead, a former SDA, is what destroyed the WCG.

 

[synger]

I don't know the exact numbers, but I would suggest that they may be comparable. Both had radio outlets ("The World Tomorrow" vs "Hour of Decision") and they both had print outlets ("Plain Truth" magazine vs. syndicated column "My Answer" and "Decision" magazine).

In addition, "The Plain Truth" was given away freely, as was all the accompanying literature. You could basically get free mail-order Bible courses from the magazine (which is what got me into it). It was published in many different languages all over the world. "Decision" on the other hand is by subscription, and looks like it's only available in English (I didn't see other language options on its subscription page).

However, Graham was more mainstream, and even if HE didn't spearhead a particular evangelism ministry, his books and pamphlets often were used (and still are) by Christians who want to spread the Gospel. His materials are used for everything from setting up a meeting to after-event followup to preparing your church for welcoming and discipling new Christians.

In addition, there are some rather marked differences, which also could easily skew the numbers. WWCG was its own denomination, with all the numbers that entails. Graham was an evangelism ministry, where you can count the people who attended his Crusades, but counting the followup is harder. Graham was reaching people and trying to get them to go to THEIR churches, whereas Armstrong was reaching people and trying to get them to go to HIS church. Thus, Graham's influence may be even stronger among the Christian community than among the Christian-seeker community.

So while I think the influence of both men was immense, and they used many of the same techniques (broadcast, print, etc.), Graham's shadow is cast much longer and more influentially over American Christianity.