The Tulip is broken

Van · Sep 28, 2008

Yet again a Calvinist posts that a person can receive the gospel with joy (Matthew 13:20-22) and yet not be seeking God. LOL

In Romans 9:30-33 Paul informs us that the Jews were pursuing the righteousness of God by the works of the Law.

The TULIP is broken.

frumanchu · Sep 28, 2008

Van said:
Yet again a Calvinist posts that a person can receive the gospel with joy (Matthew 13:20-22) and yet not be seeking God. LOL

See? No proof. No sound logical argument. Just repetition and mocking.

In Romans 9:30-33 Paul informs us that the Jews were pursuing the righteousness of God by the works of the Law.

Van here attempts to further justify his attack on Calvinism by ripping Scripture from its context. He wants you to believe that "pursuing the righteousness of God" is equivalent to "seeking God." Unfortunately for him, this verse actually undermines his argument, for we are told that the Gentiles FOUND the righteousness of God without seeking it...which DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS Van's position on Matthew 13 that those who found it (received it with joy) MUST have been seeking it.

Here we see once again the folly of the Anti-Calvinist as he twists Scripture in his zeal to attack Calvinism at all costs. Scriptural context and plain reason show it for what it is and render it impotent and empty.

The TULIP is broken.

The only thing broken is the record Van is playing.

QED

nobdysfool · Sep 28, 2008

Frumanchu said:
He wants you to believe that "pursuing the righteousness of God" is equivalent to "seeking God." Unfortunately for him, this verse actually undermines his argument, for we are told that the Gentiles FOUND the righteousness of God without seeking it...

The question begging to be asked is this: how was that (seeking righteousness by the works of the Law) working out for them? Not all that well, because Jesus showed that it wasn't possible. Appealing to this passage smacks of irrational desperation. Not that I'm surprised.

cygnusx1 · Sep 28, 2008

Whose zooming who ?

who's seeking who ?

Rom 9
[15] For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
[16] So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

...

[30] What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

why was Isaiah so BOLD ?

Romans 10:20 And Isaiah is very bold and says, "I WAS FOUND BY THOSE WHO DID NOT SEEK ME, I BECAME MANIFEST TO THOSE WHO DID NOT ASK FOR ME."

the true state of FALLEN man ;

Every man, left to himself is capable of the most heinous sins. Every man at heart is the same (Proverbs 27:19) -- deceitful and desperately wicked (Jeremiah 17:9).

Men are wicked in God's sight and totally incapable of doing that which is well-pleasing to Him (Genesis 6:5; Psalm 14:1-3; Ecclesiastes 7:20, 29; Job 15:16; Jeremiah 9:3; Romans 3:10-18).

Van · Sep 28, 2008

LOL, Fru has people receiving the gospel with joy without seeking God. Absurd. Demanding proof of the obvious is simple denial, the personal incredulity defense. A fallacy. Having no rebuttal for Matthew 13:20-22 demonstrating that total spiritual inability is false doctrine, they post graffiti.

Jesus said seek first the kingdom of God. And M atthew 13:20-022 demonstrates unregenerate men can do just that. Ditto for Romans 9:30-33.

Pursuing the righteous of God is seeking God. LOL

The Tulip is broken.

frumanchu · Sep 28, 2008

Van said:
LOL, Fru has people receiving the gospel with joy without seeking God. Absurd. Demanding proof of the obvious is simple denial, the personal incredulity defense. A fallacy. Having no rebuttal for Matthew 13:20-22 demonstrating that total spiritual inability is false doctrine, they post graffiti.

The rebuttal has been given clearly several times over. It has been explained with simple and direct logical arguments why the position of the Anti-Calvinist is untenable and absurd. Notice that when the clear contradiction between the Anti-Calvinist's positions on Matthew 13 and R omans 9 are pointed out, no defense or explanation whatsoever is given. All the Anti-Calvinist can resort to is mocking and repetition in the face of his attack being driven to the ground and his position neutered.

Neither the parable of the sower nor Jesus' explanation of it explicitly or implicitly state that those who received the Gospel with joy did so because they were truly seeking God. This is a pure fiction imposed upon the text by the Anti-Calvinist in his zeal to attack Calvinism at all costs, and it has been clearly demonstrated that the text does not support his blatant eisegesis.

Jesus said seek first the kingdom of God. And M atthew 13:20-022 demonstrates unregenerate men can do just that. Ditto for Romans 9:30-33.

Pursuing the righteous of God is seeking God. LOL

There you have it, folks. The Anti-Calvinist now clearly contradicts himself. He demands that the mere fact that men receive the Gospel with joy means they necessarily must have been truly seeking God, yet Romans 9 clearly and irrefutably states that the Gentiles attained the rightousness of God through faith without seeking it (ie, without seeking God).

The Anti-Calvinist is clearly so blinded by his zeal to attack Calvinism at all costs that he cannot even see the blatant contradiction of his own arguments. Not only have those using Scripture and plain reason defeated the arguments of the Anti-Calvinist, but they have defeated themselves!

The Tulip is broken.

LOL! Your argument is broken. It lies (indeed) in pieces at your feat (pun intended) while you mock and repeat, mock and repeat, mock and repeat....

QED

Van · Sep 29, 2008

If you have no defense, claim it was provided earlier, seems to be the defense plan. Note that those seeking God are now not "truly seeking God." So unregenerate folks have the spiritual ability to seek God but not to truly seek God. Where in scripture does it explicitly say we do not have the ability to truly seek God. Our doctrines should be based on what scripture says, and scripture says unregenerate folks received the gospel with joy, therefore they were seeking God... objectively. Thus the TULIP is broken because "Total Spiritual Inability" has been replaced by "Limited Spiritual Ability."

Does Romans 9:30-33 actually teach folks received the righteousness of God without seeking God? Nope. It says the Gentiles did not pursue righteousness but they obtained it. But what did they attain? The righteousness which is by faith! So they did not pursue the righteousness of God by the works of the Law, for they did not have the Law, but they did receive the gospel and believe in Christ, which is pursuing the righteousness of God by faith.

beloved57 · Sep 29, 2008

Van said:
If you have no defense, claim it was provided earlier, seems to be the defense plan. Note that those seeking God are now not "truly seeking God." So unregenerate folks have the spiritual ability to seek God but not to truly seek God. Where in scripture does it explicitly say we do not have the ability to truly seek God. Our doctrines should be based on what scripture says, and scripture says unregenerate folks received the gospel with joy, therefore they were seeking God... objectively. Thus the TULIP is broken because "Total Spiritual Inability" has been replaced by "Limited Spiritual Ability."

Does Romans 9:30-33 actually teach folks received the righteousness of God without seeking God? Nope. It says the Gentiles did not pursue righteousness but they obtained it. But what did they attain? The righteousness which is by faith! So they did not pursue the righteousness of God by the works of the Law, for they did not have the Law, but they did receive the gospel and believe in Christ, which is pursuing the righteousness of God by faith.

van, you have rejected a whole lot of truth, you understand that God is holding you accountable for this dont you..you will answer for all Gods word you have had opportunity to ridicule and reject, in the day of judgment..Jesus taught the truthes of tulip..

nobdysfool · Sep 29, 2008

Receive and pursue are two different words, and they are not interchangeable. One is passive the other active. The soil receives the seed, but the soil does not pursue the seed. To say that those who received the gospel with joy were actively pursuing the gospel is just plain stupid. The anti-Calvinists' are willfully ignorant of even the most basic tenets of grammar and word definitions. That the Greeks (Gentiles) were not seeking God, yet received the righteousness which is by faith, points to God's Grace, not the Gentiles seeking. To try and twist the scripture to say that the Gentiles were seeking God, and therefore received the righteousness which is by faith, is to bastardize God's Word, which the ones doing so will be held accountable for.

The anti-Calvinists' attempt to destroy the TULIP has utterly failed, and lies in broken pieces around the still-strong and undamaged TULIP. All the vain repetition, and assertion of falsehoods and disparagement of Calvinists will not change that, or make the assertions of the anti-Calvinists true. The TULIP stands, and the DAISY is crushed.

frumanchu · Sep 29, 2008

Van said:
If you have no defense, claim it was provided earlier, seems to be the defense plan.

You should know...you pioneered this defense.

Note that those seeking God are now not "truly seeking God." So unregenerate folks have the spiritual ability to seek God but not to truly seek God.

Note that the Anti-Calvinist has so thoroughly committed to his view that he continues to state that which he has the necessity to prove: that those who received the Gospel with joy were seeking God. This is the logical fallacy known as "begging the question."

Where in scripture does it explicitly say we do not have the ability to truly seek God.

Where in Scripture does it explicitly say we DO have the ability to truly seek God? Neither is explicitly stated in so many words...the answer must be drawn by necessary logical inference.

Our doctrines should be based on what scripture says, and scripture says unregenerate folks received the gospel with joy, therefore they were seeking God... objectively.

No...that is not a sound logical argument. You are stating that receiving the Gospel with joy necessarily means they were seeking God, but you've provided NO RATIONAL OR SCRIPTURAL BASIS WHATSOEVER for that assertion. You simply assume it to be true.

Does Romans 9:30-33 actually teach folks received the righteousness of God without seeking God? Nope.

According to your previous statements, yes it does.

Van: The folks who were pursuing the righteousness of God through the works of the Law were seeking God.

Van: Pursuing the righteous of God is seeking God.

It then follows that not pursuing the righteousness of God is NOT seeking God.

Romans 9 says the Gentiles did not pursue the righteousness of God.

Therefore, according to your own arguments, the Gentiles were not seeking God.

The logic is pretty clear. You cannot have it both ways.

It says the Gentiles did not pursue righteousness but they obtained it. But what did they attain? The righteousness which is by faith! So they did not pursue the righteousness of God by the works of the Law, for they did not have the Law, but they did receive the gospel and believe in Christ, which is pursuing the righteousness of God by faith.

Now you are clearly backtracking. You plainly stated that "pursuing the righteous of God is seeking God" and now you are trying to add qualifications to it because you have been shown to be contradicting yourself and defeating your own argument.

Oh, what a mess.....

MamaZ · Sep 29, 2008

Oh the webs that are weaved when some people are deceived...

JDS · Sep 29, 2008

I have been following these comments and I have reached a conclusion. To try to understand calvinism (TULIP) by attempting to determine who can seek after God is like trying to figure out how a plane can fly by examining the cockpit chair.

They have already concluded that one cannot seek after God because THEY ARE DEAD, and dead men cannot do anything. Therefore, God seeks after them and regenerates (quickens) them so he can give them his gift, which is faith, and thus they are saved and not until.

THIS IS "THE" FOUNDATIONAL DOCTRINE OF CALVINISM'S soteriology!

Therefore to debate about these prop up doctrines is vain and useless. One must get to the root of their error and confused gospel.

There are 66 books in the bible. Thirty nine in the OT and 27 in the NT and there is not a single verse in any of those books that say that. Calvinists say they are sola scriptura and scriptura does not say that one must be regenerated so they can believe anywhere but I would be willing to believe it if someone can post just one place it is stated in scripture.

THERFORE, MY CONCLUSION IS THAT THE FOUNDATION OF CALVINISM IS A DOCTRINE THAT CANNOT BE FOUND IN SCRIPTURE!

frumanchu · Sep 29, 2008

JDS said:
There are 66 books in the bible. Thirty nine in the OT and 27 in the NT and there is not a single verse in any of those books that say that. Calvinists say they are sola scriptura and scriptura does not say that one must be regenerated so they can believe anywhere but I would be willing to believe it if someone can post just one place it is stated in scripture.

THERFORE, MY CONCLUSION IS THAT THE FOUNDATION OF CALVINISM IS A DOCTRINE THAT CANNOT BE FOUND IN SCRIPTURE!

I hate to have to resort to an overused example...but show me the verse anywhere in the 66 books of the Bible that explicitly states that God is three in person and one in substance.

You cannot because, as with many other foundational Scriptural truths, it it is not explicitly stated in Scripture but rather is arrived at inductively from Scripture.

Now, if you want to debate the soundness or validity of the logical arguments presented as to why Scripture implicitly supports the doctrine of total inability, we can certainly do that. But the argument you provided above is insufficient unless you wish to undermine many orthodox Christian doctrines.

Van · Sep 29, 2008

LOL Folks, here is the chart from post 269:

(1)Offer no denial, but simply add the same charge to the opponent.
(2) Next, say that a person who receives the gospel with joy is not seeking God. But the opposite is obvious the person not seeking God would reject the gospel. QED
(3) Repeat the question. I ask where in scripture does it say folks cannot truly seek God, and the answer is where in scripture does it say folks have the ability to truly seek God. Where does it say they do not? And so forth and so on. Stonewalling.
(4) Deny the obvious.
(5) Say that folks seeking God in the wrong way were not truly seeking God. LOL

Nothing but nonsense folks. LOL

The TULIP is broken, Matthew 13:20-22 teaches of folks who were unregenerate, yet seeking God by faith, for they received the gospel with joy.

Van · Sep 29, 2008

Now we have the claim that total spiritual inability was arrived at inductively! LOL The doctrine was poured into scripture. Jesus says seek first the kingdom of God. The inductive reasoning process would conclude we have the ability to strive for the kingdom of God. But Calvinism says, no, this verse means the opposite of what it says, it means we have no ability to seek first the kingdom of God. What a joke.

drstevej · Sep 29, 2008

JDS said:
I have been following these comments and I have reached a conclusion. To try to understand calvinism (TULIP) by attempting to determine who can seek after God is like trying to figure out how a plane can fly by examining the cockpit chair.

They have already concluded that one cannot seek after God because THEY ARE DEAD, and dead men cannot do anything. Therefore, God seeks after them and regenerates (quickens) them so he can give them his gift, which is faith, and thus they are saved and not until.

THIS IS "THE" FOUNDATIONAL DOCTRINE OF CALVINISM'S soteriology!

Therefore to debate about these prop up doctrines is vain and useless. One must get to the root of their error and confused gospel.

There are 66 books in the bible. Thirty nine in the OT and 27 in the NT and there is not a single verse in any of those books that say that. Calvinists say they are sola scriptura and scriptura does not say that one must be regenerated so they can believe anywhere but I would be willing to believe it if someone can post just one place it is stated in scripture.

THERFORE, MY CONCLUSION IS THAT THE FOUNDATION OF CALVINISM IS A DOCTRINE THAT CANNOT BE FOUND IN SCRIPTURE!

Eph 2 says were were DEAD in trespasses and sin.

Arminians have a Monty Python Theology

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGFXGwHsD_A

JDS · Sep 29, 2008

Rep Daddy said:
Eph 2 says were were DEAD in trespasses and sin.

Arminians have a Monty Python Theology

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGFXGwHsD_A

Yep. just as I thought. I gave an opportunity to shine and no one shined.

I believe there is not a verse in Scriptures that says one must be regenerated (quickened) to believe! I could be wrong and I am prepared to convert to TULIP theology when one is produced because it will be proof that I am wrong.

Sola Scriptura belongs to the fundamentalists, who are serious about it!

drstevej · Sep 29, 2008

Dead men believing?

"I feel happy!"

cygnusx1 · Sep 29, 2008

frumanchu said:
You should know...you pioneered this defense.

Note that the Anti-Calvinist has so thoroughly committed to his view that he continues to state that which he has the necessity to prove: that those who received the Gospel with joy were seeking God. This is the logical fallacy known as "begging the question."

Where in Scripture does it explicitly say we DO have the ability to truly seek God? Neither is explicitly stated in so many words...the answer must be drawn by necessary logical inference.

No...that is not a sound logical argument. You are stating that receiving the Gospel with joy necessarily means they were seeking God, but you've provided NO RATIONAL OR SCRIPTURAL BASIS WHATSOEVER for that assertion. You simply assume it to be true.

According to your previous statements, yes it does.

Van: The folks who were pursuing the righteousness of God through the works of the Law were seeking God.

Van: Pursuing the righteous of God is seeking God.

It then follows that not pursuing the righteousness of God is NOT seeking God.

Romans 9 says the Gentiles did not pursue the righteousness of God.

Therefore, according to your own arguments, the Gentiles were not seeking God.

The logic is pretty clear. You cannot have it both ways.

Now you are clearly backtracking. You plainly stated that "pursuing the righteous of God is seeking God" and now you are trying to add qualifications to it because you have been shown to be contradicting yourself and defeating your own argument.

Oh, what a mess.....

GOOD WORK fRU !!

cygnusx1 · Sep 29, 2008

(Rom 10:20 NIV) And Isaiah boldly says, "I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me."

(Rom 9:25-26 NIV) As he says in Hosea: "I will call them 'my people' who are not my people; and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one," {26} and, "It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God.'"

2 Chronicles 12:13 So king Rehoboam strengthened himself in Jerusalem, and reigned: for Rehoboam was one and forty years old when he began to reign, and he reigned seventeen years in Jerusalem, the city which the LORD had chosen out of all the tribes of Israel, to put his name there. And his mother's name was Naamah an Ammonitess.
14 And he did evil, because he prepared not his heart to seek the LORD.

2 Chronicles 16:12 And Asa in the thirty and ninth year of his reign was diseased in his feet, until his disease was exceeding great: yet in his disease he sought not to the LORD, but to the physicians.
13 And Asa slept with his fathers, and died in the one and fortieth year of his reign.

Psalms 10:4 The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts.

Psalms 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Psalms 53:2 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.
3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Isaiah 9:11 Therefore the LORD shall set up the adversaries of Rezin against him, and join his enemies together;
12 The Syrians before, and the Philistines behind; and they shall devour Israel with open mouth. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.
13 For the people turneth not unto him that smiteth them, neither do they seek the LORD of hosts.

Isaiah 31:1 Woe to them that go down to Egypt for help; and stay on horses, and trust in chariots, because they are many; and in horsemen, because they are very strong; but they look not unto the Holy One of Israel, neither seek the LORD!

Jeremiah 10:19 Woe is me for my hurt! my wound is grievous; but I said, Truly this is a grief, and I must bear it.
20 My tabernacle is spoiled, and all my cords are broken: my children are gone forth of me, and they are not: there is none to stretch forth my tent any more, and to set up my curtains.
21 For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered.

Hosea 7:10 And the pride of Israel testifieth to his face: and they do not return to the LORD their God, nor seek him for all this.

Zephaniah 1:4 I will also stretch out mine hand upon Judah, and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and I will cut off the remnant of Baal from this place, and the name of the Chemarims with the priests;
5 And them that worship the host of heaven upon the housetops; and them that worship and that swear by the LORD, and that swear by Malcham;
6 And them that are turned back from the LORD; and those that have not sought the LORD, nor enquired for him.

Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Psa 119:155 Salvation is far from the wicked, for they do not seek out your decrees.

The Tulip is broken

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