The Tulip is broken

The Tulip is broken in many parts. One part is the idea that fallen men cannot seek God, but Matthew 13:20-22 teaches us that fallen men do seek God. Ditto for Romans 9:30-33. But once we are born again, then the exercise of our will is constrained such that God keeps us for our inheritance, 1 Peter 1:3-5.

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A person cannot trust in christ without first having been born of christ..

Trusting is from Gods Glory eph 1:

12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Van said:

Folks, Matthew 13:20-22 is not part of a parable, it is Christ's explanation of the parable. Read it in context, I am not taking the passage out of context. Unregenerate folks received the gospel with joy. Now the gospel promises eternal life with God. Therefore to receive the gospel with joy means the person is seeking eternal life with God.

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Folks, the Anti-Calvinist must resort to splitting hairs to manufacture arguments in order to cover his errors. Neither in the parable itself nor in Jesus' explanation of the parable is it explicitly stated or even remotely implied that anyone was "seeking God," yet in order to attack Calvinism at any cost the Anti-Calvinist imposes this notion upon the text. Only through gross presumption of this principle can the Anti-Calvinist then state that the fact those in the parable "received the gospel with joy and believed" meant they were truly seeking God. Furthermore, the Anti-Calvinist places himself in a precarious position because he does not believe true believers can lose their salvation. Thus he must advocate that these people were truly seeking after God, but though they were joyful and believed they completely failed to find Him in a meaningful and salvific way. Thus the folly of the Anti-Calvinist, who would have us ignore the clear inconsistency in his own doctrines that arise from attacking Calvinism at any cost. The cost is truth; the attack is weak.

There is no justification whatsoever for insisting that those in the parable were truly seeking after God. This is nothing more than naked eisegesis; a desperate attempt that fails miserably.

I would like to comment from my own personal perspective on just one faucet of the parables in Matt 13. It will be brief and non exhaustive.

There are 7 parables given in this chapter and all but the first one begins with the phrase, 'The kingdom of heavens is like" or some such phrase. The first parable does not but the disciples seems stunned that Jesus spoke to these Israelites in parables. This is instructive because it is near the end of his earthly ministry. Mt 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? This surely indicates that he was not speaking to them in parables til this time. And then this: Mt 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: It reminds me of another conversation that Jesus had with the rulers:

Joh 10:24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

His answer:

Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

This is plain speaking!

Jesus called these parables the "mysteries of the kingdom of heaven" and he gave the reason for them. It was the means to judicially blind Israel from spiritual truth if they refused to come to him who alone could instruct them in it. (He was forcing them to come to him individually). Mt 13:16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. Why? Mt 13:18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. It is because they had a personal relationship with them and he taught them these truths.

Isn't that what Jesus said about Israel: Mt 13:15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Through chapter 12, this plain speaking Messiah had been offering himself as their king and had been inviting them to come to him but they committed the unpardonable sin and so all national promises were then taken off the table for that generation and a curse promounced upon them ( Mt 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you; Mt 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come; Mt 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas [is] here) and Jesus began dealing with the common folk, the multitude, individually and giving the mysteries of the kingdom in parabolic form. A mystery is a purpose of God that has always been in his mind but has not been revealed heretofore. These mysteries gives the characteristics of the kingdom by comparing those characteristics to something they are like.

The first parable then, I think, is a foundational parable and is Jewish. It follows the pattern of the evangelism and the response of those to whom it was preached beginning in Acts 1 and going through the remainder of the book. First, the seed went to Jerusalem and we can read how the devil gobbled up the seed immediately because he controlled the hearts of those religious fellows. We have been reading about them all through the gospels. The other 3 examples all received the word. Judea had several churches established in it but were persecuted and bore little if any fruit. Ro 15:30 Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ’s sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in [your] prayers to God for me; 31 That I may be delivered from them that do not believe in Judaea; and that my service which I have for Jerusalem may be accepted of the saints; 1Th 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they [have] of the Jews: Israel today is a mission field and there are no great bible believing churches there. Anyway, this is the seed that fell on stony ground.
The gospel went then into Samaria who likewise received it just as the parable says. 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.
7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.
8 And there was great joy in that city.
All these seed plots so far are connected with Israel, except the last. Anyone who has read the Acts from chapter 10 on knows that the gentiles received the word of God in great numbers in Europe and Asia and many churches were established and flourished in many cities and nations. This is the good seed on good ground; Ac 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and [that] they will hear it.
It is interesting that Jesus Christ evangelizes along the same route in the gospel of John.

Jerusalem
Joh 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast [day], many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.

Judaea
Joh 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

Samaria
Jn 4:3 He left Judaea, and departed again into Galilee. 4 And he must needs go through Samaria.

His most fruitful ministry was in Gallilee of the gentiles. Matthew 13 was spoken in Gallilee.

This is the correct interpretation of this first parable in light of the fact that the Jewish national leaders had closed their own eyes and hardened their own heart and would not hear Christ. The seed of the second parable is believers who are sown in the field and the parables duration is the entire planting, growing, and havesting seasons.

the record is broken ............

cygnusx1 said:

the record is broken ............

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The record is stuck...........The record is stuck.........the record is stuck........the record is stuck

The TULIP remains unbroken, and unscathed. Those who have thrown themselves against it have been cut to pieces upon its petals.

Those who continue to post the same old thing over and over again, expecting that somehow it will suddenly be accepted, prove one definition of insanity: Doing the same thing repeatedly, expecting a different result each time.

Constant repetition of error does not transform it into truth. Playing to an imaginary audience underscores the irrationality of such constant repetition. This thread has run its course, and the OP has been shown to be in error. The TULIP is NOT broken, never has been, and never will be. Period. Stick a fork in this thread. It's done.

I like the way no defense whatsoever is given of the notion that people can't superficially receive the message of the Gospel with joy without truly seeking after God. It's just stated as though it's self-evident truth in the verse...even though it's nowhere to be found there. And somehow seeking to earn God's favor through works equates to truly seeking God, even though Scripture is pretty clear that the motivations of the two are worlds apart.

Indeed, this thread is done. Nothing of substance at all given to support the OP...just assertions and ridicule. SSDD.

(BTW, that would be Same Stuff, Different Day)

There can be no doubt about it. TULIP denies these statements:

Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

The TULIP'ers disagree!

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.
1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins.

There is not a TULIP'er on earth that believes that!

2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Believers in Jesus Christ have been reconciled to God according to this verse!

2Co 5:18 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

And the world has been reconciled to God through Jesus Christ, according to this verse and the double talk of the reformed of trying to make the world and the elect the same will not play in this application.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Roman 1-3 says that God, as the righteous judge has found every soul trhat has knowledge of good and evil guilty and he has condemned them to death. The remedy, motivated by his love and mercy, is Jesus Christ who has taken away the sin and reconciled us to God so he does not charge the sin of anyone to their account since he has charged it all to the account of Jesus Christ and he has died for it.

2Co 5:21 For he (God) hath made him (Jesus Christ)[to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

This is the message to the world by tose who have been so reconciled!

2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

The pardon that Jesus Christ provides is ETERNAL LIFE. Everywhere that eternal life is spoken of, it is a GIFT or THE gift of God. It Must be recieved in the name of Jesus Christ. It is his Spirit. It is God's grace. It can only be recieved through faith in Jesus Christ!

Ro 4:14 For if they which are of the law [be] heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
Ro 4:16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Ga 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Ga 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Ga 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
The promise is the Spirit, salvation, eternal life.

Because Jesus Christ has died in the place of every man, all men can and must receive the gift God offers though him in order to be forgiven by him of their sins, and so he sends us into the world to preach this gospel (Good news) to every creature on the planet, and God says he will save everyone who will believe!

Ro 3:26 To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Ro 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

I am of the firm belief that the TULIP is a denial of the gospel of Jesus Christ because there is no way possible for it to be good news to most of the people on planet earth.

JDS said:

There can be no doubt about it. TULIP denies these statements:

Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

The TULIP'ers disagree!

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.
1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins.

There is not a TULIP'er on earth that believes that!

2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Believers in Jesus Christ have been reconciled to God according to this verse!

2Co 5:18 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

And the world has been reconciled to God through Jesus Christ, according to this verse and the double talk of the reformed of trying to make the world and the elect the same will not play in this application.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Roman 1-3 says that God, as the righteous judge has found every soul trhat has knowledge of good and evil guilty and he has condemned them to death. The remedy, motivated by his love and mercy, is Jesus Christ who has taken away the sin and reconciled us to God so he does not charge the sin of anyone to their account since he has charged it all to the account of Jesus Christ and he has died for it.

2Co 5:21 For he (God) hath made him (Jesus Christ)[to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

This is the message to the world by tose who have been so reconciled!

2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

The pardon that Jesus Christ provides is ETERNAL LIFE. Everywhere that eternal life is spoken of, it is a GIFT or THE gift of God. It Must be recieved in the name of Jesus Christ. It is his Spirit. It is God's grace. It can only be recieved through faith in Jesus Christ!

Ro 4:14 For if they which are of the law [be] heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
Ro 4:16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Ga 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Ga 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Ga 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
The promise is the Spirit, salvation, eternal life.

Because Jesus Christ has died in the place of every man, all men can and must receive the gift God offers though him in order to be forgiven by him of their sins, and so he sends us into the world to preach this gospel (Good news) to every creature on the planet, and God says he will save everyone who will believe!

Ro 3:26 To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Ro 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

I am of the firm belief that the TULIP is a denial of the gospel of Jesus Christ because there is no way possible for it to be good news to most of the people on planet earth.

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where's the proof for the accusations ?

Calvinist's accept every statement of scripture giving careful analysis , comparing scripture with scripture and denying none of it.

but your randomly quoting scripture using so called "Arminian proof texts" is no more than suggesting Calvinist's don't agree with the Arminian interpretation of said texts ..... hardly proof that Calvinists disagree with the texts.

shall i quote a few dozen so called "Calvinist proof texts" and say all anti-Calvinists disagree with scripture and don't believe what the Bible states ? is such not the way of a child.

much better to say scripture can be interpreted different ways , some ways appear correct but upon deeper reflection are implausable , even false , because they disagree with scriptures wider picture , and God doesn't contradict Himself ; it's about perspective , not "proof" texting.

to suggest that John Calvin , John Owen or John Gill denied or disbelieved any text you have quoted is absurd and bearing a false witness.

scripture says as many as are good also seek God ; NONE !!!! ROMANS 3

The TULIP is fine , the DAISY is smashed.


The "daisy" = "he loves me , he loves me not , he loves me he loves me not .... "

The TULIP still stand, unbowed, and unbroken. The assault on it has failed, and failed spectacularly. The OP is wrong, and its defense is wrong. The Word of God has been upheld against the false words of those who seek to destroy the Truth, and replace it with a man-centered "I lifted me" false gospel.

Stick a fork in it. The OP has failed, and this thread is done.

cygnusx1 said:

scripture says as many as are good also seek God ; NONE !!!! ROMANS 3

The TULIP is fine , the DAISY is smashed.


The "daisy" = "he loves me , he loves me not , he loves me he loves me not .... "

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Dead men seeking.

Zombie Theology

God does not only N-O-T choose certain ones to be saved, he does not even choose who will be born except in a very few special cases he has recorded in Scripture! That is a fact! Usually two consenting adults choose who will be born. In the case of rape or a couple other ways only one person makes the choice. However God has chosen to save every one who has experienced a physical birth who will believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ because he died for the sins of all men. He plainly says that over and over and in several different ways and it is the height of unbelief and denial to advance a systematic theology that depends upon its not being true.

How many times does God have to say something before it is truth? He says this! 1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

He cannot lie.

Then he says:
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

And this:

Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Ro 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Who would be so bold as to deny that these words are true? TULIP, particularly limited atonement and unconditional election, cannot stand under a casual reading of scripture.

The heros of the past who taught this doctrine and whose names are often invoked are no less guilty of preaching a false doctrine than its modern day proponents. The good thing about those of the past that is probably not true of those of today is that they did witness and when they did it was with the doctrine of the so-called arminian. They would have not won a convert by telling them what they really believed at the beginning.

Van said:

So the folks that seek God in scripture are not really seeking God. For Calvinists, scripture only means what it says when it matches Calvinist doctrine, otherwise it means the opposite of what it says.

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Please show us the exact verse where it says those in the parable of the sower who fell away under persecution were seeking God. You cannot because IT DOES NOT SAY THEY WERE TRULY SEEKING GOD. You engage in this blatant disparagement of Calvinists by claiming we deny something that is not even stated in the text. You further do so by ridiculing us for pointing out that you cannot even reconcile your position with common dictionary definitions.

You are manufacturing an argument by inventing Scripture and putting words in the mouth of Jesus.

Van would have us believe that it is impossible for a man to respond with joy to the perceived gain of the Gospel without first having to truly seek after God, yet he has himself in a bind...for he does not believe those who truly seek after God and FIND Him can ever fall away from the faith. Thus Van, in his zeal to attack Calvinism at all costs, tries to distract from the obvious paradox by ridiculing any attempt to point out his error as being "disparagement." He cannot hide from the truth; he has dug himself into a deep hole from which he cannot climb out. He must resort to putting words in the mouth of Jesus to justify his attack, claiming that something is self-evident when it is nowhere found in the parable or Jesus' explanation of it. Any clear exposure of the gross logical fallacies involved in his argument are met with more of the same repetition and accusations; attempts to deflect from the fallout of his blind zeal to attack Calvinism at all costs.

LOL A Calvinist will say those seeking God were not seeking God, or those making a choice were not making a choice. The TULIP is broken, folks and offering personal incredulity as a defense is without merit.

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You decry the alleged disparagement of Calvinists, yet disparage us at every turn with your accusations and bluster. You position in this thread is utterly defeated. You have offered no rational defense, only the droning repetition of your position coupled with disparaging accusations. Everyone can see it but you, Van...you are defeated and desperate.

mene mene tekel upharsin

frumanchu said:

mene mene tekel upharsin

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This goes well with that:



God Bless

Till all are one.

Van said:

Changing the name of the TULIP to LULIP or DAISY (Damned Absurd Invention Silly Yarn) does not change that the TULIP is false doctrine as shown above.

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Actually he was identifying your view as the daisy. But that's an interesting acronym you've chosen for your view.