The Tulip is broken

Van said:

Hi JDS, see how Calvinism is defended. With conflicting statements, and mere assertions not supported scripturally. And with disparagement.

One minor point, RTE is not a Calvinist, he does not believe in Original Sin. And Beloved 57 is a hyper-Calvinist and does not reflect mainstream Calvinist thinking. But those actually posting the false doctrines of Calvinism seldom if ever post rebuttals of either one.

Calvinists say a person who has not been regenerated would not seek God. Matthew 13:20-22 describes folks who are not regenerate and are seeking God for they received the gospel with joy.

Calvinism cannot be defended biblically.

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Tulip doctrine is grounded in the gospel of Gods grace, not tulip doctrine no gospel..

Matthew 13:20-22 describes folks who are not regenerate and are seeking God for they received the gospel with joy.

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It doesnt teach they were seeking, for thats an implied assumption, they however were providentially in the path of where the gospel was being preached, and believed naturally its testimony, but proved to be frauds and unregenerated..matt 13:

20But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Jesus is describing someone who was merely a emotional hearer who did not really understand the gospel, and proved to be a apostate..

one cannot truly believe the gospel or understand it without regeneration, thats a fact out of Jesus mouth..

The extent to which anti-Calvinists will twist, distort, and add into scripture their assumptions and biases is never more evident than in this misreading and false teaching attempted from the Parable of the Sower, in Matt 13. There is absolutely no warrant for seeing that those who received the gospel with joy (the rocky and thorny ground) were actively seeking God. NONE. The Gospel is sent to the people, they don't come seeking it. Jesus said "GO into all the world, preach the gospel." He did not say, "Wait for the world to come to you."

The parable establishes that the ground that is prepared is the ground that continues and produces fruit. "Good soil" is prepared soil. "Rocky and thorny ground" is unprepared soil. No fruit is expected from unprepared soil, the seed falls on it by accident, not intentionally. Unprepared ground cannot sustain the seed when the conditions become hard, because the seed cannot take root. What is that root? It is the spiritual life that comes from regeneration of the spirit by God. That prepares the spirit to receive the seed, and allow the seed to take root, and grow. That is analogous to soil tilled and fertilized by the farmer prior to planting. Any farmer will tell you that. Jesus was teaching to those who understood and practiced the skills of agriculture, and He would not teach something that was not in keeping with such practices, or that ran counter to those practices.

The intellectual bankruptcy of the anti-Calvinist position is shown in stark relief by the continued insistence by anti-Calvinists that the parable of the Sower teaches that unregenerate men can and do seek God. It is evident that there is no warrant for this assumption, nothing in the parable teaches it, and to continue to claim that it does shows an unteachable, obstinate, and stubborn refusal to admit that their doctrine does not hold up under scrutiny. The continued disparagement and personal attacks against those who rightly point out this fact show that they willfully choose to believe falsehood, and pursue an agenda which scripture does not support, and actually condemns.

The anti-Calvinist position regarding Matt 13 is defeated, it is shown to be false, and a result of eisegesis of the worst kind. there is no possible warrant for such a position, or for the refusal to admit defeat, and to admit that they have wrongly taught something that scripture does not teach.

What I find particularly intriguing (and absurd) is that a parable that represents the hearts of men as soil, a completely passive substance, would be used to “prove” the ability of men to actively pursue (seek).

msortwell said:

What I find particularly intriguing (and absurd) is that a parable that represents the hearts of men as soil, a completely passive substance, would be used to “prove” the ability of men to actively pursue (seek).

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Yes, the poster was misleading and dishonest in forcing his human opinion with that reference..

msortwell said:

What I find particularly intriguing (and absurd) is that a parable that represents the hearts of men as soil, a completely passive substance, would be used to “prove” the ability of men to actively pursue (seek).

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Exactly. That alone would be enough to show the falsehood of such doctrine. Couple that with known agricultural principles, and it can be easily seen that the false doctrine was formulated from ignorance, and not knowledge. The idea that Matt 13 proves that unregenerate men actively seek God is proven false, and the teaching of such doctrine is defeated, utterly and completely.

Matthew 13 represents a “pivot” point in God’s dealing with Israel and it takes place towards the end of the ministry of Jesus Christ after he had presented himself to them as the prophesied Messiah through mighty miracles and signs and preaching. It is a kingdom message. There are seven parables given in this chapter describing the kingdom of heaven and all but the first one begins with the qualifier, “the kingdom of heaven is like unto”. Our Lord called these parables “mysteries” and indicated that his purpose for using them is so as to cloak his truth from those who had purposefully rejected his plain language. Now, because of these parables, only those who would come to him could understand and it marked the difference between his disciples who were taught of him and the others who were not.
The important thing to note here is that Jesus is giving the characteristics of his kingdom through these parables. Through them we find there are saved and lost, tares and wheat, leaven, good fish and bad fish in this kingdom and a separation of them will not be made until the end of it’s mystery form. Consider:
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
The interpretation:
7 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.(This word world is translated from Aion, meaning age, a time period)
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Therefore, these parables are a prophecy spanning a great deal of time. Two thousand years so far.
34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Now, since these are “kingdom of heaven” parables, let us consider the first parable which is the subject of some of the comments on this thread.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, (of the kingdom) and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word (of the kingdom), by and by he is offended.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word (of the kingdom) ; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word (of the kingdom), and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

In verse 19, Jesus said this is the “word of the kingdom” and so it is in all of these verses. It is instructive and interesting to note that the parable of the sower was given in the plural and interpreted in the singular. I do not have time now to comment on why this is so.

The reason I bring this up is because most people are on these forums to prove their own theology and just use verses for that end without considering the context. The Scriptures have a historical and a prophetical context and it is wrong to isolate verses and use them in a way that sometimes even violates their context. I would venture to guess that some who do this have never really even studied these passages carefully and prayerfully.

There is much more to know about this pivot point in God’s unfolding plan of redemption that takes place in Matt 13. I have just scratched the surface with these comments.

Our Lord called these parables “mysteries” and indicated that his purpose for using them is so as to cloak his truth from those who had purposefully rejected his plain language

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They were mysteries to those God purposedly blinded..jn 12:

37But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:

38That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 41These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

Now, because of these parables, only those who would come to him could understand

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But why did some come to him and others didnt ? jn 6:

37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

The reason I bring this up is because most people are on these forums to prove their own theology

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Just like you are doing..your own theology is being promoted here, not Gods..

I don't see the pivot, it seems the disciples were already familiar with Jesus' teaching in parables (they asked about it) and Jesus has been announcing the Kingdom since the very start of His ministry (cf. Mt 4). What's the pivot?

There doesn't seem to be a comment beyond two observations, one that some parables span a lot of time, and the other that one of the parables is interpreted personally. I'd conclude they don't all span this amount of time if some are interpreted personally.

heymikey80 said:

I don't see the pivot, it seems the disciples were already familiar with Jesus' teaching in parables (they asked about it) and Jesus has been announcing the Kingdom since the very start of His ministry (cf. Mt 4). What's the pivot?

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The pivot is that he and his disciples had been preaching the message "the kingdom of heaven was at hand and the promised King is among them" (they crucified him for this claim) and calling for a national repentance. In chapter 12 the natinal leaders denied him and convinced the people that he was doing the miracles by the power of Beelzebub, the lord of the flies, thus committing the unpardonable sin. At the last of the chapter, after indicting them for their actions, he announced a new and personal relationship of those who would do the will of the Father and of course, that was to believe on him. In Matt 13, he fulfills the prophecy of Isaiah that he would blind their eyes by speaking to them in parables. This would require those who would be taught of God (he is God) to come to him for understanding. Example: Mt 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. Mt 15:15 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable. The parables must be explained by a member of diety which requires a personal relationship with God and religious people cannot understand them without it no matter how sincere they are. Those who rejected the plain words of Jesus Christ were the most religious of Israel and they did not stop being religious when they rejected him and they continue to this day to say they are the chosen of God. They have synagogues all over the world where they worship him. See 1 Cor 2 to get the explanation of how the thoughts of God becomes the thoughts of man.

heymikey80 said:

There doesn't seem to be a comment beyond two observations, one that some parables span a lot of time, and the other that one of the parables is interpreted personally. I'd conclude they don't all span this amount of time if some are interpreted personally.

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In the first parable, the seed that is sown by the sower produces the prople of God and then in the second parable they are sown in the field (the world). 37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Mr 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. This is a sowing!

But there is confusion in the world:

2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

These parables in Matt 13 describe this present evil age (Ga 1:4) with the kingdom of God being in the world while the King is not present but being governed by heavenly principles and laws while existing among and beside the kingdom of Satan. That this kingdom is a long period of time is shown by the agriculural analogy of sowing and reaping which takes time to accomplish.

These parables are wonderful but not everyone understands them and I comment on them only because the argument was attempting to make them address a subject outside their intent and context. I hope you can appreciate that.

JDS said:

These parables are wonderful but not everyone understands them and I comment on them only because the argument was attempting to make them address a subject outside their intent and context. I hope you can appreciate that.

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I appreciate that they are understood in different ways, and I agree with much of what you're saying. I would of course agree with you that people try to shoehorn certain events into this parable, which I don't think are there either.

heymikey80 said:

I appreciate that they are understood in different ways, and I agree with much of what you're saying. I would of course agree with you that people try to shoehorn certain events into this parable, which I don't think are there either.

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I agree as well. Since the OP, from what I can gather, was an attempt to negate Calvinism in toto, by the imposition of concepts that are foreign to the scriptures being discussed, I believe that it is evident that the basic premise of the OP, as I can discern it, has been completely and utterly defeated, and shown to be based not on scripture, but on an agenda of hatred and false doctrine. As such, the OP is defeated in toto, and has been shown to be false, and based on faulty hermeneutics, rendering the entire attempt a failure.

Van said:

Matthew 13:20-22 teaches that unregenerate folks received the gospel with joy. Therefore the Calvinist doctrine of Total Spiritual Inability is unbiblical. Pretty simply really. The TULIP is broken and changing the subject will not alter that fact.

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Matthew 13:20-22 teaches that unregenerate folks received the gospel with joy yet who clearly are not those who "hear the word and understand it," who "heard the word in an honest and good heart and hold fast to it". Therefore the Calvinist doctrine of Total Spiritual Inability is biblical. Pretty simply really. The TULIP is just fine and restating a mantra against it will not alter that fact.

Van said:

Folks, as you can see, when "total spiritual inability" is shown to be unbiblical, limited spiritual ability is advocated. Folks can seek God, but not in a way that is effective. So on Monday its "no one seeks God" but on Tuesday its "No one seeks God effectively."

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No evidence has been offered demonstrating that unregenerate men seek God. The only passage offered was in the context of a parable taken out of its own context and forced to say something it does not. The passage made no mention whatsoever of anyone seeking God. No amount of ridicule, ignorance of plain dictionary definitions, or rote recital of the same argument over again can make up those words appear in the passage.

The TULIP remains unbroken, and unscathed. Those who have thrown themselves against it have been cut to pieces upon its petals.

Those who continue to post the same old thing over and over again, expecting that somehow it will suddenly be accepted, prove one definition of insanity: Doing the same thing repeatedly, expecting a different result each time.

the TULIP is fine

Unregenerate folks received the gospel with joy.

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In vain..1cor 15:

1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

by them not being regenerated, they had no root in themselves..


20But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Neither does it say he understaneth the word like the good ground hearer matt 13:

23But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.