Credo said:Are you suggesting that the James Ossuary is referring to Jesus the Savior?
The Thadman said:Yes, that is what I believe.
Relatives were never mentioned on ossuaries unless the relative in question was famous or very well known. It is unheard of to have a close friend's name on an ossuary.
With these two things in mind, we're looking at a man named Ya`qoov (James) whose father was Yosef (Joseph), and whose famous brother's name was Yeshu` (Jesus).
Although James, Joseph, and Jesus were popular names in the 1st Century, there's only one combination that I can think of that matches up.
Shlomo,
-Steve-o
nyj said:The ossuary is a fake. Moot point.
edward said:Thadman, the inscription has been determined a fake.
Read this: http://web.israelinsider.com/bin/en.jsp?enZone=Views&enDisplay=view&enPage=ViewsPage&enDispWhat=object&enDispWho=Article^l1569
From: Steve Caruso <Thadman@mindspring.com>
Date: Thu May 8, 2003 3:57:49 PM US/Eastern
To: editor@israelinsider.com
Subject: One of your writers made a rather embarrassing mistake.
<snip>
To Whom It May Concern,
At:
http://web.israelinsider.com/bin/en...ispWho=Article^l1569&enVersion=0&enZone=Views
The author, Rochelle I. Altman, makes the following comment:
-----
"As an expert on scripts and an historian of writing systems, I was asked to examine this inscription and make a report. I did.
The bone-box is original; the first inscription, which is in Aramaic, "Jacob son of Joseph," is authentic. The second half of the inscription, "brother of Jesus," is a poorly executed fake and a later addition. This report has already been distributed on at least two scholarly lists.
Please note that the fraud is so blatant that I did not bother to go into extreme detail on whether the faked addition is supposed to be Hebrew or Aramaic. (If that's a vav, -- then it's Hebrew, not Aramaic; if it's yod, then it's says 'my brother', not 'his brother' or 'brother of'. By no stretch of the imagination can one claim this to be in Aramaic... 'of' in Aramaic is 'di'.)
You have to be blind as a bat not to see that the second part is a fraud... "
-----
Firstoff, If the letter in question is a yoodh, it does not mean "my brother." It forms the phrase "Akkooee d-Yeshu`" which means "His brothers, one of whom was Jesus." It even utilizes the dropped He (the full spelling of "Akkooee" (Olaf-Kkeyth-Wau-Yoodh) is "Akkoohee" (Olaf-Kkeyth-Wau-He-Yoodh)), which was a common feature of spelling in the 1st Century.
Secondoff, I find this very embarassing, the self-proclaimed expert does not know of simple Aramaic Proclitics. A Dolath when stuck onto the beginning of a word makes it "of _____." It was originally "di" (Dolath-Yoodh) (way back BEFORE Jesus' time), but much time before the 1st Century, it became proclitic. The proclitic Dolath is also used in the Construct State of nouns:
When two nouns are put one after another and the first has the 3rd person personal pronoun ("his" or "her" in english), while the second has the proclitic Dolath, it puts them into a genitive and definite relationship. For example:
Akko d-Yeshu` = A brother of Jesus
Akkeh d-Yeshu` = THE Brother OF Jesus
Akkooee d-Yeshu` = (One of) THE Brothers OF Jesus / His Brothers one of whom was Jesus.
("-eh" is the 3rd person personal pronoun of singular nouns, where "-ooee"/"-oohee" is the 3rd person personal pronoun of plural nouns.)
Hope this help!
Shlomo!
(Peace!)
---------------------------------------
Steve Caruso
(a.k.a. "The Thadman")
Webmaster & Author, AramaicNT.org
(http://www.AramaicNT.org)
Lead Programmer, eBethArké
(http://www.BethMardutho.org/eBethArke/)
Rutgers University, NJ
Thadman@mindspring.com
http://www.AramaicNT.org
AIM/Yahoo!: TheThadman1
----------------------------------------
From: Israel Insider Editor <editor@israelinsider.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:27:10 +0200
To: Thadman@mindspring.com
Subject: RE: One of your writers made a rather embarassing mistake
Status: U
<snip>
Hello Steve,
*
Thank you for visiting Israel Insider and for taking the time to comment on this article, which attracted a lot of interest.
*
Unfortunately I have lost contact with Rochelle Altman.* I would be interested in hearing her response to what you wrote.
*
Sincerely,
Ellis Shuman
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Ellis Shuman
Editor in Chief
http://www.israelinsider.com
Koret Communications
Tel Aviv
03-620-4777 ext. 112
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
This is about as pointless as someone in a thousand years time finding (or forging) a dedication to a "William, son of William, wife of Monica" , and trying to use it as proof that Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky got married!!!With these two things in mind, we're looking at a man named Ya`qoov (James) whose father was Yosef (Joseph), and whose famous brother's name was Yeshu` (Jesus).
Although James, Joseph, and Jesus were popular names in the 1st Century, there's only one combination that I can think of that matches up
Axion said:((1))This is about as pointless as someone in a thousand years time finding (or forging) a dedication to a "William, son of William, wife of Monica" , and trying to use it as proof that Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky got married!!!
((2))The straws some people will cling to to try to argue against the virginity of the Virgin Mary!
((3))And by the way, Yeshua does not translate to Jesus as such. (Jesus is a later Latinisation) It translates to Joshua, one of the commonest names of the time. Just as Ya'qoov is actually the more common Jacob, not strictly "James".
Bastoune said:You already know that the term "brother" ("adelphoi") can be translated to mean "kinsmen" just as "brethren" in English has a broader definition than "brother." We don't have to elaborate on that speculation (cf. Luke 1:36; Luke 22:32; Acts 1:12-15, 7:26; 11:1; 13:15,38; 15:3,23,32; 28:17,21; Rom. 9:3; Gen. 11:26-28("anepsios") / Gen. 13:8; 14:14,16; Gen. 29:15; Deut. 23:7; 1 Chron. 15:5-18; Jer. 34:9; Neh. 5:7; 2 Sam. 1:26; 1 Kings 9:13, 20:32; 2 Kings 10:13-14; 1 Chron. 23:21-22; Neh. 4:14; 5:1,5,8,10,14; Tobit 5:11; Amos 1:9)
Hebrew and Aramaic have no word for "cousin" and this is carried over into the way the Greek is expressed.
edward said:Thadman,
What is the Aramaic word for step-brother? Have you figured that one out yet?
Edward
The Thadman said:I know that there are more but the only one that comes to mind is "akko'-sh'eel".
Shlomo,
-Steve-o
The Thadman said:Genesis was written in Hebrew, not Aramaic.
Shlomo,
-Steve-o
edward said:And how would you translate the Hebrew to Aramaic for those two verses? How would you translate those two verses to Greek?
Edward
The Thadman said:A literal translation here would be "akke'" (brothers and/or sisters), but it would be slang.
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