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The Truth About Peppered Moths

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thekawasakikid

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My university course (10+ yrs ago :( ) included the text-book case of the evolution of the peppered moth due to the Industrial Revolution changing their environment.

My friend who is a YEC, discounted the example, saying there were always black peppered moths in the population and that it wasn't therefore evolution. At the time, he told me that the scientific community had withdrawn their interpretation of what had happened to the peppered moth.

Three weeks ago, I was at the Natural History Museum in London. They have a Darwin exhibition and they included the peppered moth as an example of evolutionary theory.

This Sunday, my friend delivered the class - on transitional forms. He also discussed (and again rejected as a preposterous falsification) the evolutionary interpretation of the peppered moth.

Due to circumstances which are outwith the subject of this thread, I kept my mouth shut. However, I was confused and slightly alarmed. I don't for a minute believe that the Natural History Museum would use an example of evolution which had subsequently been disproven, as proof which supports the theory. So does YEC have a valid alternative and if so, what is the Natural History Museum's game?
 

Underdog77

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First of all, there are many evolutionists who will use anything for as long as they can to support evolution, even if it has been discredited.

Some people do not know the real story about peppered moths so here it is:

In Europe there are trees with white bark. The white moths could land on these trees and camoflauge with them and this helped protect them from being eaten by birds. Now the black moths couldn't do this, they would land and because they were black they would be an easy target to see for the birds. Needless to say the percentage of white moths was very high and the percentage of black ones was extremely low.

As the industrial movement progressed, smoke and ash would be released into the air, much of this turned the bark of trees dark. Now the black moths could land on these trees and be safe but the white moths were now the ones that were easily seen and consequently eaten.

Evolutionists would say that because the trees turned dark the moth evolved in order to survive in its habitat. But Creationists would say that because the birds could at first see the black moths easily they got eaten more often and all people saw were the white moths. But when the tree bark turned color, the black moths could hid better and the white ones were eaten more, therefore the people saw mostly black moths around.

I believe the second explanation is the better and most logical.
 
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thekawasakikid

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Underdog77 said:
First of all, there are many evolutionists who will use anything for as long as they can to support evolution, even if it has been discredited...

Really??? Sweeping statement, anyone?

Underdog77 said:
Evolutionists would say that because the trees turned dark the moth evolved in order to survive in its habitat. But Creationists would say that because the birds could at first see the black moths easily they got eaten more often and all people saw were the white moths. But when the tree bark turned color, the black moths could hid better and the white ones were eaten more, therefore the people saw mostly black moths around.

I believe the second explanation is the better and most logical.

My question was whether either interpretation was incontrovertibly provable - or are these simply two interpretations?

If the evolutionary argument has been proven (and I use that word, as in my OP, on purpose) to be false, why does it still persist in the Natural History Museum?

Conversely, if it has not been disproven and your closing paragraph is the creationist's take on the situation, then it is entirely wrong for creationists to state unequivocally that, in this case, evolutionary theory has yet again found to be wanting.

I should come clean and admit that currently I lean towards TE but that the overriding reason for posting this is that I'd just really like a straighforward, honest answer rather than a partisan defence of one side of the argument or another.

Thanks, Underdog, for your post...

...an overtired and slightly irritable kawasakikid ;)
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider

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Kenneth Miller has done a web page on this very subject. Your friend has clearly been reading Jonathan Wells.

http://biocrs.biomed.brown.edu/Elephant stuff/Chapters/Ch 14/Moths/Moth-Update.html
http://faculty.wm.edu/bsgran/melanism.pdf

Underdog - given flood geology, vapour canopies, "lost squadrons", moon dust and seawater residence times, your opening paragraph is one of the worst examples of the pot calling the kettle black I've seen in a long time. I defy you to name a single discredited evidence that is still used by the mainstream science community. For each you can produce, I will produce three used by creationists on a virtually daily basis on these boards.

I'll even give you the first three for free:

(1) Sea creatures on top of mount everest confound mainstream geology but are easily explained by the flood.

(2) Polystrate trees go through millions of years' worth of layers.

(3) Archaeopteryx is a modern bird.

Your go. Put up or shut up.
 
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gluadys

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thekawasakikid said:
My university course (10+ yrs ago :( ) included the text-book case of the evolution of the peppered moth due to the Industrial Revolution changing their environment.

My friend who is a YEC, discounted the example, saying there were always black peppered moths in the population and that it wasn't therefore evolution. At the time, he told me that the scientific community had withdrawn their interpretation of what had happened to the peppered moth.

Three weeks ago, I was at the Natural History Museum in London. They have a Darwin exhibition and they included the peppered moth as an example of evolutionary theory.

This Sunday, my friend delivered the class - on transitional forms. He also discussed (and again rejected as a preposterous falsification) the evolutionary interpretation of the peppered moth.

Due to circumstances which are outwith the subject of this thread, I kept my mouth shut. However, I was confused and slightly alarmed. I don't for a minute believe that the Natural History Museum would use an example of evolution which had subsequently been disproven, as proof which supports the theory. So does YEC have a valid alternative and if so, what is the Natural History Museum's game?


Check my post (#398) on this thread: http://www.christianforums.com/t726062&page=40

It's a brief history of how creationism's definitions of evolution have changed since Darwin's day, including the recent move to label as "evolution" only a change that fits their version of "one kind turning into another".

As far as creationists are concerned, even an actual speciation---where you clearly have a new species produced, is NOT evolution, if the new species is the same "kind" as the old. Getting a new species of fruit fly or sunflower or salamander or gull is, by their lights, NOT evolution because the new species is "still a fruit fly, sunflower, salamander, gull, etc."

The Natural History Museum, is, understandably using a scientific definition of evolution which is something along the lines of "a change in the frequency of alleles from one generation to another."

In the case of the pepper moth, the gene for pigmentation comes in two forms. (And yes, black moths existed long before industrialization. They constituted less than 5% of the pepper moth population and were highly sought after by collectors because of their rarity.)

During the period of industrialization, the frequency of the allele for melanism increased. After pollution controls became common, the frequency of that allele decreased. That fits the scientific definition of evolution.

Kettlewell's work also established that bird predation and the camouflage involved in having the appropriate colour for the environment were important factors.

That is what makes the pepper moth a valid example of natural selection. It is not, and never was, an example of mutation, nor of speciation.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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To really look at natural selection in a real world setting read:
The Beak of the Finch: A Story of Evolution in Our Time
by Jonathan Weiner

here is my review of this excellent book

The Beak of the Finch: A Story of Evolution in Our Time
by Jonathan Weiner

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...p_ln_b_1/102-9531079-7608134?v=glance&s=books

The book is the convergence of three nice but unfortunately rare events:
first, a well written and interesting book.
second, good structured and well executed science.
third, the rarest of the three, good explanation at the layman's level of specific science and it's wider implications.


The book is primarily about the specific research done on Daphne Major, a small uninhabited island in the Galapagos Islands, by Peter and Rosemary Grant, concerning the measurements of beaks of Darwin's finches. Expertly woven into this discussion is a good understanding of evolutionary processes, a nice description of how science really works and why, along with enough human interest that it captivates the reader's interest and rightfully garnered the book a pulitzer prize. It's structure is primarily chronological as we are introduced to the Grant's now 20 years plus research project, the people who did it and the science underlying the effort. Other research is introduced as necessary to make or expand the point, so you learn a little about guppies, Darwin's particular studies, Hawaiian fruit flies, sticklebacks in BC; but mostly the details are taken from, are about the 13 species of Darwin's finches, what they eat, and the last 20 years of weather on these islands described as Nature's own biological laboratory: unique, simple enough to study, yet persuasive in the theories formed by people enchanted by their biological diversity stemming from just a few individuals lucky enough to cross the Pacific from South America.

The take home message is simple enough. Through 20 generations of finches, data has been carefully collected concerning the beaks, the food, the offspring, the blood and from this mass of data has emerged the proof that populations evolve in response to their environment; that is, natural selection(NS) is seen, not just in the propositions concerning fossils, but in the time frame of a PhD thesis, evolution happens. Like an often heard mantra, the phrase, "speciation has never been seen to occur" emerges from the writings of the Young Earth Creationists(YEC). This book is a direct reply to this idea, look and listen the author (and the Grants) seem to say to their most vocal opponents, evolution and NS happen all around us, it is just too complex to be clearly proven outside of the unique environment of the Galapagos.

If you have any interest in the topic of creation-evolution-design this ought to be one of the first 10 books on your to-be-read list.
thanks for reading this short review.
richard williams


This is one of those extraordinary books that you wondered how you missed it for so long. Of course, in my reading i had seen the title, but i did not understand how significant and well written the book is.

One of the important big issues for the YEC and for most OEC is the process of speciation.
It is curious to me that the issue is not front and center in criticisms of the YEC, for their 'science' has a critical founders effect in Noah, and another serious bottleneck in Adam's time. If Noah's flood was universal, then the best you could logically hope for on the ark was the progenitor of 'kinds'. There is simply no room for just the beetles but species. But in the 6K to 10K years intervening that prime kind pair must give rest to the entire kind domain species by normal speciation events. Extraordinary, for the YEC would thereby propose a speciation of many many times faster than any atheistic materialist evolutionist if Noah's ark was to populate the world as we see it. Truely Weird Science. But even ignoring all this, the big difference between OEC and TE is the concept of kinds, hence speciation. this book is all about speciation, the how, and why, and what drives it.

It is also painless introduction to several of the key elements of evolutionary theory. I will try to use the proper technical terms and point these ideas out in the following.

Chapter 1 "Daphne Major"
"Taken together, these new studies suggest that Darwin did not know the strength of his own theory. He vastly underestimated the power of natural selecton. Its action is neither rare nor slow. It leads to evolution daily and hourly, all around us, and we can watch" ... "This is one of the most intensive and valuable animal studies ever conducted in the word; zoologists and evolutionists already regard is as a classic. It is the best and most detailed demonstration to date of the power of Darwin's process." pg 9

Chapter 2 "What Darwin Saw"
Volcanic islands, recently formed above the waves, far from shore, provide a unique laboratory for the observation of the evolution by radiation from a few founders who find their way to these islands. Honeycreepers and fruit flies in Hawaii, Darwin's finches in the Galapagos are just a few examples out of numerous. The critical item to realize is that the finches provide what is a speciation event, there are 13 species of Darwin's finches in the Galapagos, each island has a subset of the 13, each with markers that like the tortises show exactly which island they are from. "But the Grants are the first scientists equipped with enough patience, stubborness, ground support and sea support, enough computer power, airplane power, and staying power, to watch the process actually happen."

Chapter 3 "infinite variety"
hypervariable Two ways, an attribute or feature like the beak of the finch, or a population where this attribute is found.
"'Hard facts' are those rare details in this confusing world that have been recorded so clearly and unambiguously that everyone can agree on them. The shape of the finch's beak is a hard fact."..."That is one of the most variable characters ever measured in a bird. And Darwin's finches are extraordinarily variable not only in the depth, length, and width of each mandible, and in the relative leghts of the upper and lower mandibles, but also in......." pg 67
This is the key thing that the Grants did, they measured: beaks, seed size, rainfall over a 20+ year period. Note the phrase, "everyone can agree on them" this is the key idea of public knowledge in science and the role the empirical must play in an objective reference point in the adjudication between competing theories.

Chapter 4 "Darwin's Beaks"
The details about the beaks and the seeds the birds eat. Attention was very carefully paid to types, how many, size of seeds and especially hardness, it is these numbers that make the research so valuable. The underlying driving force is energy budgets derived from the seeds, big birds can crack and eat big seeds but their size requires higher energy expenditures. A good side discussion was the divergence of beak sizes within the species if several species shared an island compared to the size of the beaks on islands that the species where without as much competition.

Chapter 5 "A Special Providence"
The weather, 1 in 7 finches made it through the drought.The larger birds were able to eat the larger harder seeds, males being 5% larger than females survived in greater numbers. Only 200 birds left on the island.

Chapter 6 "Darwin's forces"
Selection at different levels. First young birds are better off smaller, less energy, older birds are better off larger, so NS changes during the lifetime of the bird. Sexual selection is important, with the odd sex ratio as a result of the drought, only the largest best conditioned males bred, all the females bred, some several times. Size is inheritable, during this time 1978, all the birds and young where banded, effectively making the island into a very measured laboratory, a unique event in science, up to now. Guppies in south America introduced as another example of sexual selection and predator on prey population changes.

Chapter 7 "25K Darwins"
Then El Nino caused it to rain, and rain ....And like the switch from drought to rain, the selection on the beaks switched, now the larger birds were dying and the smaller living. why? lots of seeds to eat, so the larger energy cost of being big is factored into the survival rates. surprise surprise. selection pressures may oscillate wildly during the lifetime of a creature. jittering, wobbles, oscillations.
there are several more chapters, i didnt finish the review
 
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seebs

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Wait, so...

If because of the birds eating the others, there's mostly black moths left, won't they be more likely to have black moth children? So, in other words... Wouldn't the creationist explanation give you the exact claim made by the evolution folks?
 
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Underdog77

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seebs said:
Wait, so...

If because of the birds eating the others, there's mostly black moths left, won't they be more likely to have black moth children? So, in other words... Wouldn't the creationist explanation give you the exact claim made by the evolution folks?
No. The evolutionist would say that because the trees turned colors the white moths evolved to survive and that gave us black moths as well as white ones.

The Creationists would this is truly survival of the fittest. The black moths were not fit to survive the environment (white trees) at first so they were usually picked off. But as the trees turned color it was the white moths who weren't adequately equipped and they became the ones who were eaten while the black moths survived easily.
 
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herev

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Underdog77 said:
Evolutionists would say that because the trees turned dark the moth evolved in order to survive in its habitat.
no, evolutionists would say this proves natural selection. When the trees turned dark, the moths with the gene telling it to be dark had a naturally better chance of surviving and reproducing, thus furthering the gene that made them dark. The white ones previously had the advantage with the same mechanism. Natural selection says not only that the fittest have the best chance of survival, but that the fittest have the best chance to reproduce over generations and thus preserve their own genetic code
 
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seebs

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Underdog77 said:
No. The evolutionist would say that because the trees turned colors the white moths evolved to survive and that gave us black moths as well as white ones.

Huh? I don't think you understand the evolutionary explanation of this.

The Creationists would this is truly survival of the fittest. The black moths were not fit to survive the environment (white trees) at first so they were usually picked off. But as the trees turned color it was the white moths who weren't adequately equipped and they became the ones who were eaten while the black moths survived easily.

Well, yeah. That's the evolutionary theory, in a nutshell; over time, the population adapts to match the environment, because the fittest survive more often.
 
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Underdog77

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seebs said:
Huh? I don't think you understand the evolutionary explanation of this.
Then please explain it to me.


Well, yeah. That's the evolutionary theory, in a nutshell; over time, the population adapts to match the environment, because the fittest survive more often.
Evolution=change correct?
If so then there no genetical change going on here at all. All that is happening is one kind is surviving better than the other. Nothing new is being produced, just more of one moth than the other.


Natural selection does not benefit evolution. It doesn't hinder it but it doesn't give proof that it happened at all. I don't see how/why some evolutionists use it as proof.
 
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Underdog77

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herev said:
no, evolutionists would say this proves natural selection. When the trees turned dark, the moths with the gene telling it to be dark had a naturally better chance of surviving and reproducing, thus furthering the gene that made them dark. The white ones previously had the advantage with the same mechanism. Natural selection says not only that the fittest have the best chance of survival, but that the fittest have the best chance to reproduce over generations and thus preserve their own genetic code
1) I have heard some say that the moths evolved. If that's not your view then pardon me.

2) Yippy. Natural selection is true. So what? That doesn't help or hinder the evolution belief. Nothing new was produced therefore evolution has not occured.
 
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seebs

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Underdog77 said:
Then please explain it to me.

I'm trying.

Evolution=change correct?

Yes.

If so then there no genetical change going on here at all. All that is happening is one kind is surviving better than the other. Nothing new is being produced, just more of one moth than the other.

So?

If in 1960, 70% of moths are white, and in 1970, 70% of moths are black, that's a change.

There's two separate questions here. One is whether a trait can become more or less common over time. Another is where traits come from.

The moths show how a trait can become more common over time.

Natural selection does not benefit evolution. It doesn't hinder it but it doesn't give proof that it happened at all. I don't see how/why some evolutionists use it as proof.

It's proof of the core claim, which is that, no matter how you get there, if you have a species in which there are different characteristics, over time, the more successful ones will become more popular.

So.

You grant, I take it, that, if we have both white and black moths, and the trees are white, that we will gradually see more white moths survive, until most of the surviving moths are white.

What happens if the moths are all black, and the trees are white, and a genetic "defect" makes an albino moth? That albino moth has a very good chance of surviving to have offspring, which will likely also be albino. Over the course of a number of generations, that one "freak" defect could spread and become commonplace.

That's why this matters so much; natural selection is what gets us from a one-time mutation to a widespread trait, if that trait is proving to be a reproductive advantage!
 
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Underdog77

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seebs said:
So?

If in 1960, 70% of moths are white, and in 1970, 70% of moths are black, that's a change.

There's two separate questions here. One is whether a trait can become more or less common over time. Another is where traits come from.

The moths show how a trait can become more common over time.
Excellant. You are explaining what I'm saying. The two questions are whether a trait can become more or less common over time (natural selection) and where do the traits come from (evolution/creationism).

The pepper moths explain the first question but have nothing to do with the second.


It's proof of the core claim, which is that, no matter how you get there, if you have a species in which there are different characteristics, over time, the more successful ones will become more popular.

So.

You grant, I take it, that, if we have both white and black moths, and the trees are white, that we will gradually see more white moths survive, until most of the surviving moths are white.

What happens if the moths are all black, and the trees are white, and a genetic "defect" makes an albino moth? That albino moth has a very good chance of surviving to have offspring, which will likely also be albino. Over the course of a number of generations, that one "freak" defect could spread and become commonplace.

That's why this matters so much; natural selection is what gets us from a one-time mutation to a widespread trait, if that trait is proving to be a reproductive advantage!
You are assuming the blacks produced the whites when there is no evidence for that happening or it happening the other way around. Its just a guess.
 
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gluadys

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Underdog77 said:
No. The evolutionist would say that because the trees turned colors the white moths evolved to survive and that gave us black moths as well as white ones.


Incorrect. It is documented that the black moths did NOT first appear during industrialization. They are referred to in zoologists' records and in the records of butterfly and moth collectors hundreds of years before they became common. They are referred to in pre-industrial writings as being extremely rare, not non-existant.

What happened in the soot-blackened areas of England in the 19th century was that this rare form of pepper moth became common.

The TOE explains why.

The better camouflaged moth was less likely to be picked off by predatory birds, leaving the less well camouflaged moth with fewer numbers to reproduce. Kettlewell's studies confirmed this.

That is natural selection. That is the mechanism of evolution which Darwin introduced in Origin of Species.

That's why pepper moths appear in text-books on evolution; it's a clear, easy-to-understand example of natural selection.

If creationists agree with this scenario, they are simply agreeing that Darwin was right and natural selection does lead to changes in the characteristics of a species, based on fitness.

But how would creationists explain it without using the theory of evolution?
 
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gluadys

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Underdog77 said:
Evolution=change correct?
If so then there no genetical change going on here at all. All that is happening is one kind is surviving better than the other. Nothing new is being produced, just more of one moth than the other.

Exactly. That is why this is a model of natural selection---which is a mechanism of evolution---not evolution itself.

The pepper moth is not an example of new traits emerging; both forms already existed.

It is not an example of speciation; both are varieties of the same species and are interfertile.

That is why we can focus in on the natural selection---because it is not necessary to look at other factors here.



Natural selection does not benefit evolution.

Natural selection is one of the most important driving forces of evolution. Natural selection is what preserves favorable variations (as shown in the pepper moth scenario.) When new favorable variations are added to favorable variations already acquired earlier, the accumulation of these variations over time changes the population to the point that it becomes a new species.

That is evolution.

In the pepper moth case, we are looking at only one variation (and a temporary one at that)--so we did not get a new species. But adding variation to variation to variation to variation over time will eventually get you to a new species.
 
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gluadys

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Underdog77 said:
1) I have heard some say that the moths evolved. If that's not your view then pardon me.

The moths did evolve. But remember, evolution is what happens to species. It does not happen to individuals.

So nothing happened to the white moths to make them turn black (nor did anything happen to the black moths to make them turn white after pollution controls stopped the soot from blackening the landscape).

What happened was that in the species as a whole, black moths became more common than before.

That is what is meant by the species evolving.

Why did they become more common?

Natural selection.

How so?

Well, natural selection operates by means of "differential reproductive success".

During industrialization, more black moths were born than white moths. Why? Because there were more black mummies and daddies.
Why? Because birds were eating lots of white moths and not so many black moths.
Why? The black moths had better camouflage and could hide better from the birds.

Prior to industrialization and after pollution controls, the scenario works in reverse.

This is exactly what Darwin predicted.

We have seen the same thing again in the recent study of the Galapagos finches that showed beaks changing year to year depending on the climate and the available food.

2) Nothing new was produced therefore evolution has not occured.

Depends on what you mean by "new" doesn't it? A new population of mostly black moths replaced a population of mostly white moths due to natural selection.

That is precisely how evolution works.

If you think this is not evolution, then you have some incorrect ideas about what evolution is, and you should change those ideas.
 
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gluadys

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Underdog77 said:
Excellant. You are explaining what I'm saying. The two questions are whether a trait can become more or less common over time (natural selection) and where do the traits come from (evolution/creationism).


Now I see where you are going off base with your definitions.

Evolution is not a matter of where the traits come from. Evolution is about the impact of the new traits on reproductive success. The new traits are often produced by genetic mutation. But genetic mutation is not evolution. You can have lots and lots of genetic mutation without having evolution at all.

Scenario 1. The mutation occurs in a non-coding part of the genome and does not produce a new trait at all. No evolution

Scenario 2. The mutation produces a new trait that is harmful to the organism. Natural selection will repress the new trait and maintain the species at its status quo. No evolution.

Scenario 3. The mutation produces a new trait that is neither helpful nor harmful. The new trait will spread through the species until a Mendelian balance is reached. There will be more diversity in the species. This is a small-scale type of evolution.

Scenario 4. The mutation produces a new trait which is beneficial. The organisms which possess this trait will generally have more reproductive success (because proportionally more live to maturity, attract a mate, produce more children, have more children survive to maturity). Before too long nearly every organism exhibits the new trait. This is evolution.

When Scenario 4 is repeated many times, the species may differ so much from its ancestor that it is, to all intents and purposes, a new species.



You are assuming the blacks produced the whites when there is no evidence for that happening or it happening the other way around. Its just a guess.

At some point in their history, the moths developed two forms. We don't know which came first, but either a black moth became white or a white moth became black. Otherwise, the two different forms would not both exist in the species.

(Unless you want to propose that God created each variant separately. That was the belief of 19th century creationists.)
 
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herev

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Underdog77 said:
1) I have heard some say that the moths evolved. If that's not your view then pardon me.

2) Yippy. Natural selection is true. So what? That doesn't help or hinder the evolution belief. Nothing new was produced therefore evolution has not occured.
I thought you knew what the theory of evolution was about--You said in the other thread, "I'm warning you all now--I know my stuff." Pardon me for assuming too much. If you can't see the connection between natural selection and evolution, nothing else to discuss
 
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