the Truth About Lying...

[Rick Otto]

Please reply reflectively, not reflexively...

The generality,"It is wrong to lie" is true.
But generalities have a way of becoming dysfunctional in the specifics of narrower contexts, yes?

Now consider the commandment, and the specification firmly nailed by fact of scripture, to the general prohibition re: lying:

Ex 20:16 - Show Context Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

>"AGAINST THY NEIGHBOR"<


Much to my personal disparagement, I have asserted that lying 'per se' has not here been prohibited.
Have at me if you will, but it cannot be said, with any veracity, that all lying has been prohibited.

That being said, I will consider it character assasination to put words in my mouth &/or accuse me of promoting lying. All such nonsense will be immediately reported.

My point in the main, is to stop the manipulation & irrationality of guilt about necessary & beneficial lying.
We can churn & burn the whole spectrum of motivations, from National Security, to Marital Security ~ "Does this dress make me look fat?"

Would the legalist in, or among you have me to say in all honesty, "No dear, you're fat makes you look fat. The dress is just an innocent victim." LOL
The same people who would prohibit us from all lying(more often the ladies), I notice, are the same people who think we (men) shouldn't care WHAT our spouses looks like.

Honesty is important, but brutal honesty isn't often right. And how do you point out the truth, &/or the deception (the DRESS makes me...) when a person is thin-skinned or even justifyably vulnerable, to delivery of the truth?

All comments absent personal attacks are most heartily welcome!

 

[CSMR]

Maybe it is best to look at Truth proper. Jesus Christ is the truth, and it is not right to promote deceptions than to convey the truth which is Jesus Christ.
That might provide a framework for looking at the morality of lying.
I don't know if a categorical answer can be made. One could lie to someone about whether she is fat because it is a trivial truth, worrying about which would take her away from the truth of Jesus Christ. On the other hand one could tell the truth and demonstrate the gospel in its critical aspect, revealing completely the unpleasant truth about us. So both actions might be faithful, it seems to me.

 

[JJB]

I once had someone ask me if I would lie to Nazi authorities by hiding people ppl in my attic during WWII Europe . My reply was, "Yes, I think I would lie and hide them to the best of my ability. I hope that is the choice I would make were I put in that position."

This was the look on their face to my answer:

They thought that because I am a Christian, I would have to "tell the truth".

I've learned better than to ask my husband that question. I could find attractive clothes before we were married, I can still do that. Perhaps some biblical marital counseling would help with the issue of the dress question, or one could wait on God until one's wife learns the lesson.

 

[McWilliams]

Even Rahab declared, "They went thataway", indicating the opposite direction that the spies took!
Then think of the word 'spies'. Doesnt indicate honesty but yet they were so instructed according to God's plan.
Much to ponder on such a topic!

 

[JimfromOhio]

This will be a good thread for me since next Sunday's School Class in the Westminster Shorter Catechism will be on the 9th Commandmend. I am studying both Larger and Shorter but for Sunday Class's time limit, it will be Shorter.

Q. 77. What is required in the ninth commandment?
A. The ninth commandment requireth the maintaining and promoting of truth between man and man, and of our own and our neighbor&#8217;s good name,[165] especially in witness-bearing.[166]

165: Zechariah 8:16. These are the things that ye shall do; Speak ye every man the truth to his neighbour; execute the judgment of truth and peace in your gates: Acts 25:10. Then said Paul, I stand at Caesar's judgment seat, where I ought to be judged: to the Jews have I done no wrong, as thou very well knowest. 3 John 12. Demetrius hath good report of all men, and of the truth itself: yea, and we also bear record; and ye know that our record is true.

166: Proverbs 14:5, 25. A faithful witness will not lie: but a false witness will utter lies.... A true witness delivereth souls: but a deceitful witness speaketh lies.

Q. 78. What is forbidden in the ninth commandment?
A. The ninth commandment forbiddeth whatsoever is prejudicial to truth, or injurious to our own, or our neighbor&#8217;s, good name.[167]

167 Leviticus 19:16. Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD. Psalm 15:3. He that backbiteth not with his tongue, nor doeth evil to his neighbour, nor taketh up a reproach against his neighbour. Proverbs 6:16-19. These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. Luke 3:14. And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.

I will have a whole week to discuss this with you all and be ready for my next class. !!

 

[Rick Otto]

but WOW!!!
I KNEW Semper Reformanda was the right place to go.
I've NEVER been met with this much acceptance & understanding ANYWHERE else. I usualy get reviled & ignored.
Vait heah, I'll be bock!

 

[CSMR]

I KNEW Semper Reformanda was the right place to go.
I've NEVER been met with this much acceptance & understanding ANYWHERE else. I usualy get reviled & ignored.

Of course, you don't know what we really think about you!

 

[McWilliams]

Early this morning as I read Ephesians 4:25 :Therefore, putting away lying, "Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor," for we are members of one another.

The footnote in my NKJV of MacArthur Study Bible states:
More than simply telling direct falsehoods, lying also includes exaggeration and adding fabrications to something that is true. Cheating, making foolish promises, betraying a confidence, and making false excuses are all forms of lying, with which Christians should ahve no part(cf John 8:44; 1 Cor 6:9; Rev. 21:8)
speak truth with his neighbor Quoted from Zech. 8:16. God's work in the world is based on truth, and neither the church nor individual believers can be fit instruments for the Lord to use if they are not truthful.

 

[Rick Otto]

But a spouse is a whole lot closer than a neighbor, & I get the distinct feeling that the truth is not always what's being asked for.
And how does this bear on Rahab's situation?
BTW, that had me ROFL, picturing an OT character delivering classic boilerplate Hollywood dialogue! I can just picture her in too much eye liner, lifting her arm & pointing her finger, the Philistines trippin' all over themselves like keystone cops, & the Isreali spies makin' their getaway Charlie Chaplan style.

 

[McWilliams]

But a spouse is a whole lot closer than a neighbor, & I get the distinct feeling that the truth is not always what's being asked for.
And how does this bear on Rahab's situation?
BTW, that had me ROFL, picturing an OT character delivering classic boilerplate Hollywood dialogue! I can just picture her in too much eye liner, lifting her arm & pointing her finger, the Philistines trippin' all over themselves like keystone cops, & the Isreali spies makin' their getaway Charlie Chaplan style.

ROFL Just too funny!!

 

[JJB]

After the Ephesians passage, thanks to McWilliams,
it brought to mind Corrie Ten Boom and her story of her family's attempt to hide the persecuted from the government. Perhaps they were silent upon questioning??? I don't recall. Were they ever questioned at all? It's been too long since I've read that book.

Who is our neighbor? Back to the Good Samaritan...

 

[McWilliams]

Yes, I agree and it is so thought provoking to consider how we would behave in similar circumstances and what does our Lord desire of us!! Hate to think it could evolve into something like 'situation ethics' where we just decide on the spot what is best for us. That cant be biblical, can it?
Neither do I remember how Corrie Ten Boom handled that if it occured but I do know she made every effort to honor God so I'll have to check that out.
I dont think the lines blur on right/wrong but that it is our thinking that blurs. Is this not true? So much seems ambiguous when I like things black/white, cut and dried, definite yes/no!
When growing up I remember I never had such doubts but would think, 'what would my daddy say or think'. Wow, that cleared it up in a flash!! Doesnt seem so easy now;why is that?