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the true temple

RandyPNW

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Apart from analyzing the individual passages concerning the temple, there are theological reasons to reject any notion of a future temple. I personally have to analyze the passages together with theological understanding.

And that's because OT typology made no effort to explain its NT counterpart. OT Prophets were speaking to people under the Law, and made no effort to speak outside of this context.

1) The OT temple was a symbol God applied under the Law to represent God's heavenly temple, consisting of His own justice, as opposed to justice being worked out in the partnership between God and OT Israel. The book of Hebrews argues that a flawed priesthood could not operate in terms of eternal redemption, but only in a temporary sense until God's heavenly justice was worked out by Christ alone.

Heb 8.4 ...there are already priests who offer the gifts prescribed by the law. 5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain"...
9.8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning. 9 This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper...
23 It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence...
10.1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2 Otherwise, would they not have stopped being offered?...

2) The Law was given to Israel "for all your generations." But the context for this statement was the Law, indicating that people not yet redeemed by Christ had an ongoing need for spiritual cleansing, at least until legal cleansing had been fully accomplished. The Law was given in perpetuity, but not eternally. Its truth was eternal, but its function was to lead to a new covenant.

3) Jesus said the Law was as enduring, in all of its requirements, as the universe itself in Matt 5. The context, again, was the Law of Moses, which continued to be in effect before Jesus' Cross. The universe firmly required that Israel's sins be constantly dealt with until Jesus could ultimately fulfill the need to fully redeem Israel. Even the universe will pass away in its temporal nature. But redemption would provide for a new creation.

4) When we read in Zech 6 of the restored temple, the context is two-fold. One, it is involved with the then-current restoration of the temple under the Persians. And two, it is a dualistic, typological prophecy of the heavenly reality Christ will bring beyond the temple worship of the Law. Joshua, the High Priest at the time, was not both a king and priest, as the portrait shows. So, the fulfillment was intended to picture Christ as both king and priest, with the temple restoration referring to the temple he would build, which I believe to be the Church, built upon himself as a new temple.

1 Cor 3.16 Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst? 17 If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person; for God’s temple is sacred, and you together are that temple.

5) When we read in Eze 40-48 of a temple, it is a picture of a future temple in the language of the then-current Law. Since it is quite different from the temple under the Law, again it must refer to a different kind of temple built by Christ. Its symbolism is evident in the account given in Revelation 21 of the New Jerusalem. When the temple is spoken of as being high or exalted, the sense seems to be of a different, heavenly temple (Eze 40.2; Isa 2.2; Rev 21.10).

6) When we read in Isa 2 of nations streaming to the temple in Jerusalem, again we are speaking symbolically of a new reality transcending the Law. The nations were not given to gather 3 times per year in Jerusalem to worship God at the temple. That was the domain of the Jewish People in Israel, and certainly would not require a gathering of nations to that geographical spot. What it does hearken back to is Abraham's Promise that he would spiritually father many nations. So in their symbolically gathering to Jerusalem at the temple it is indicated that the nations will come to the faith of Abraham in the future, in the Messianic era.

7) I do see as symbolic the language of temple worship and the Law given in the OT Prophets. They did not intend to speak outside of the legal context of their own times, and expected that the fulfillment of the Abrahamic Promise would transcend the limitations imposed by the Law of Moses. Justice would come from God, since the history of Israel revealed a constant failure to achieve final deliverance from their enemies and relief from the punishment of God.

1 Pet 1.10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

8) Paul's depiction of the Antichrist seated in the temple of God is Paul's continued use of OT symbolic language of the temple. Rulers do not "sit" in God's temple. So, his depiction of Antichrist sitting there indicates he is trying to take God's place in the center of worship, both from Israel and from all the nations. The context concerns Antichrist taking God's place--not the reinstitution of temple worship.

9) In my opinion, God's temple is being built today by Christ, and that heavenly temple is both the Christian Church and the heavenly justice that God is applying to those who have yet to be delivered, both nations and individuals. Israel will as yet be brought back into the community of Christian nations by God's justice because Israel's flaws, apart from Christ's redemption, could not achieve final redemption. The Law could not achieve that, representing human self-efforts to achieve Eternal Salvation. Final Salvation comes only through Christ by God's mercy alone. The Law depicted Christ's Salvation, and not just its own temporary connection to God.

10) Finally, the use of symbolic language in OT Prophecy, with no apparent effort to "modernize" its fulfillment, might make a translator and interpreter of these temple passages go crazy! But it's all we have, I'm afraid. It's left to make sense of what God was doing in transitioning from a temporal form to an eternal form by necessity, since redemption must come not from us mortals but only from heaven itself.

1 Cor 13.8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
 

BobRyan

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If Israel had not rejected The Messiah then Christ would not have pronounced the curse of Solomon on the temple at then end of Matt 23. The temple would have remained. However as Paul points out in Heb 10 - the animal sacrifices would still have ended.

You said ---

8) Paul's depiction of the Antichrist seated in the temple of God is Paul's continued use of OT symbolic language of the temple. Rulers do not "sit" in God's temple. So, his depiction of Antichrist sitting there indicates he is trying to take God's place in the center of worship, both from Israel and from all the nations. The context concerns Antichrist taking God's place--not the reinstitution of temple worship.

I agree because Paujl writes that in 2 Thess 2 as if the readers are familiar with the concept. At the time of Paul's writing Christians were banned from the temple, so I don't think they thought he was talking about the literal temple in Jerusalem, but even if they did think that, they would expect it to be the same temple they already saw standing in Jerusalem.
 
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BobRyan

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so then - what is the MAIN point? (according to Paul)

NASB - HEB 8
Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer. 4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law
 
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RandyPNW

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If Israel had not rejected The Messiah then Christ would not have pronounced the curse of Solomon on the temple at then end of Matt 23. The temple would have remained. However as Paul points out in Heb 10 - the animal sacrifices would still have ended.

You said ---

8) Paul's depiction of the Antichrist seated in the temple of God is Paul's continued use of OT symbolic language of the temple. Rulers do not "sit" in God's temple. So, his depiction of Antichrist sitting there indicates he is trying to take God's place in the center of worship, both from Israel and from all the nations. The context concerns Antichrist taking God's place--not the reinstitution of temple worship.

I agree because Paujl writes that in 2 Thess 2 as if the readers are familiar with the concept. At the time of Paul's writing Christians were banned from the temple, so I don't think they thought he was talking about the literal temple in Jerusalem, but even if they did think that, they would expect it to be the same temple they already saw standing in Jerusalem.
Interesting! I hadn't thought about how the temple would've fared had Israel not sinned to the degree they did.

On the other hand, the sole purpose of the physical temple was to deal with human sin, particularly in the history of Israel as sin grew and infected the entire nation. So, I suppose the temple was always destined to be destroyed?

In the same vein I've wondered what would've happened to our physical bodies if Adam and Eve had never sinned? They would not have died, and yet it seems that it was never God's plan to reproduce humanity beyond the limits of the earth itself.

Surely, God always planned to do away with our physical bodies, along with gender differences? If so, how could this be done apart from the death of the body? I suppose I have no answers! ;)
 
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BobRyan

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Surely, God always planned to do away with our physical bodies, along with gender differences? If so, how could this be done apart from the death of the body? I suppose I have no answers! ;)
When God made things - He pronounced it good. Not just our bodies but birds, trees, water, the Sun.

I don't think He is going to an "empty space" where nothing physical hangs around - just spirits.

"Gnostic beliefs often include the idea that the physical world and the body are seen as inherently evil or limiting, while the spirit or soul is considered good and divine"
 
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RandyPNW

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Interesting! I hadn't thought about how the temple would've fared had Israel not sinned to the degree they did.

On the other hand, the sole purpose of the physical temple was to deal with human sin, particularly in the history of Israel as sin grew and infected the entire nation. So, I suppose the temple was always destined to be destroyed?

In the same vein I've wondered what would've happened to our physical bodies if Adam and Eve had never sinned? They would not have died, and yet it seems that it was never God's plan to reproduce humanity beyond the limits of the earth itself.

Surely, God always planned to do away with our physical bodies, along with gender differences? If so, how could this be done apart from the death of the body? I suppose I have no answers! ;)
Oh yea, I never meant to imply otherwise! I believe in a New Earth, and not just a New Heaven! ;) We will have physical bodies on a "renewed" physical earth.

I don't believe the old earth completely goes away because the Bible says in several places that the earth is eternal. So in saying it "passes away" it is talking about its temporal nature passing away, a complete overhaul or remodeling job! But gender differences, along with the need for reproduction, appear to go away.
 
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Minister Monardo

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Interesting! I hadn't thought about how the temple would've fared had Israel not sinned to the degree they did.
There was never a need for a Temple for all of Torah to be fulfilled.
The Lord gave David a vision for a Temple because he desired it, and the Lord loved David.

Isaiah 66:1 is repeated in the NT,
and is iron clad in its testimony of how the Lord feels about Temples.
Thus says the Lord:
“Heaven is My throne,
And earth is My footstool.
Where is the house that you will build Me?
And where is the place of My rest?
2 For all those things My hand has made,
And all those things exist,”
Says the Lord.
“But on this one will I look:
On him who is poor and of a contrite spirit,
And who trembles at My word.

Those who continue in the notion of resuming animal sacrifices
will bring their own delusions upon themselves.
3 “He who kills a bull is as if he slays a man;
He who sacrifices a lamb, as if he breaks a dog’s neck;
He who offers a grain offering, as if he offers swine’s blood;
He who burns incense, as if he blesses an idol.
Just as they have chosen their own ways,
And their soul delights in their abominations,
4 So will I choose their delusions,
And bring their fears on them;
Because, when I called, no one answered,
When I spoke they did not hear;
But they did evil before My eyes,
And chose that in which I do not delight.”

Acts 7:
48 “However, the Most High does not dwell
in temples made with hands, as the prophet says:
49 ‘Heaven is My throne,
And earth is My footstool.
What house will you build for Me? says the Lord,
Or what is the place of My rest?
50 Has My hand not made all these things?’
51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears!
You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.

The Temple became a stumbling block of false security in Judah
Jeremiah 7:
3 Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel:
“Amend your ways and your doings, and I will cause you to dwell in this place.
4 Do not trust in these lying words, saying, ‘The temple of the Lord,
the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord are these.’
8 “Behold, you trust in lying words that cannot profit...
11 Has this house, which is called by My name, become a den of thieves in your eyes?
Behold, I, even I, have seen it,” says the Lord.
12 “But go now to My place which was in Shiloh, where I set My name at the first,
and see what I did to it because of the wickedness of My people Israel.

The Temple was not built for sacrifices, any altar of uncut stone was acceptable.
The Temple was built to bring glory to the Name of the Lord that He would place
there, in Jerusalem.
 
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RandyPNW

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There was never a need for a Temple for all of Torah to be fulfilled.
The Lord gave David a vision for a Temple because he desired it, and the Lord loved David.

Isaiah 66:1 is repeated in the NT,
and is iron clad in its testimony of how the Lord feels about Temples.
Thus says the Lord:
“Heaven is My throne,
And earth is My footstool.
Where is the house that you will build Me?
And where is the place of My rest?
2 For all those things My hand has made,
And all those things exist,”
Says the Lord.
“But on this one will I look:
On him who is poor and of a contrite spirit,
And who trembles at My word.

Those who continue in the notion of resuming animal sacrifices
will bring their own delusions upon themselves.
3 “He who kills a bull is as if he slays a man;
He who sacrifices a lamb, as if he breaks a dog’s neck;
He who offers a grain offering, as if he offers swine’s blood;
He who burns incense, as if he blesses an idol.
Just as they have chosen their own ways,
And their soul delights in their abominations,
4 So will I choose their delusions,
And bring their fears on them;
Because, when I called, no one answered,
When I spoke they did not hear;
But they did evil before My eyes,
And chose that in which I do not delight.”

Acts 7:
48 “However, the Most High does not dwell
in temples made with hands, as the prophet says:
49 ‘Heaven is My throne,
And earth is My footstool.
What house will you build for Me? says the Lord,
Or what is the place of My rest?
50 Has My hand not made all these things?’
51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears!
You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.

The Temple became a stumbling block of false security in Judah
Jeremiah 7:
3 Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel:
“Amend your ways and your doings, and I will cause you to dwell in this place.
4 Do not trust in these lying words, saying, ‘The temple of the Lord,
the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord are these.’
8 “Behold, you trust in lying words that cannot profit...
11 Has this house, which is called by My name, become a den of thieves in your eyes?
Behold, I, even I, have seen it,” says the Lord.
12 “But go now to My place which was in Shiloh, where I set My name at the first,
and see what I did to it because of the wickedness of My people Israel.

The Temple was not built for sacrifices, any altar of uncut stone was acceptable.
The Temple was built to bring glory to the Name of the Lord that He would place
there, in Jerusalem.
Well, there's another idea to contemplate. ;) You're right that a physical temple was never the main thing. But history is history, and that's how God decided to work it with Israel, in preparation for the new temple, which I believe to be the Church.

Well, I suppose God's true temple will always be in heaven. The Church will be God's temple on the earth, as I see it.
 
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Minister Monardo

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Well, there's another idea to contemplate. ;) You're right that a physical temple was never the main thing. But history is history, and that's how God decided to work it with Israel, in preparation for the new temple, which I believe to be the Church.

Well, I suppose God's true temple will always be in heaven. The Church will be God's temple on the earth, as I see it.
People have many misconceptions and interpretations of history. What matters is God's intent. That is His Logos. The Temple is the Saints, upon whom the latter Temple will find the greater glory.
There is not a decision to be made between the Temple in heaven and on earth.
The believers are a earthly manifestation of the True Temple in heaven.
Thus we pray for the Kingdom on earth to be as it is in heaven.

Hebrews 12:
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem
, to an innumerable company of angels,
23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are
registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect

What you see on earth now is Herod's Temple, all gaudy, carnal and glitzy.
If the Holy Spirit dwells in you, then the Kingdom of Righteousness, Peace and Joy are also.
When that heavenly city comes to the earth, may we all be found there.

Additional witness.
Ephesians 2:
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed,
we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Our born again (literally born from above) spiritual
"inner man" is in heaven, on Mt. Zion, and in Christ.
Our justified spirits are in Christ, and perfect in Him.

WE must crucify our flesh so that our born from above Spirit can connect to our Spirit here on earth by the power of the Holy Spirit. Let those who have ears, hear what the Spirit is saying. You are not functioning as a born from above mature believer until you can receive wisdom from above.
1 Corinthians 2:
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.
16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?”
But we have the mind of Christ.


Heavenly Versus Demonic Wisdom​

James 3:
13 Who is wise and understanding among you?
Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom.
14 But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts (met a few),
do not boast and lie against the truth.
15 This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic.
16 For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there.
17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield,
full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy.
18 Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

Halleluyah!
 
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RandyPNW

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People have many misconceptions and interpretations of history. What matters is God's intent. That is His Logos. The Temple is the Saints, upon whom the latter Temple will find the greater glory.
There is not a decision to be made between the Temple in heaven and on earth.
The believers are a earthly manifestation of the True Temple in heaven.
Thus we pray for the Kingdom on earth to be as it is in heaven.

Hebrews 12:
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem
, to an innumerable company of angels,
23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are
registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect

What you see on earth now is Herod's Temple, all gaudy, carnal and glitzy.
If the Holy Spirit dwells in you, then the Kingdom of Righteousness, Peace and Joy are also.
When that heavenly city comes to the earth, may we all be found there.

Additional witness.
Ephesians 2:
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed,
we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Our born again (literally born from above) spiritual
"inner man" is in heaven, on Mt. Zion, and in Christ.
Our justified spirits are in Christ, and perfect in Him.

WE must crucify our flesh so that our born from above Spirit can connect to our Spirit here on earth by the power of the Holy Spirit. Let those who have ears, hear what the Spirit is saying. You are not functioning as a born from above mature believer until you can receive wisdom from above.
1 Corinthians 2:
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.
16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?”
But we have the mind of Christ.


Heavenly Versus Demonic Wisdom​

James 3:
13 Who is wise and understanding among you?
Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom.
14 But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts (met a few),
do not boast and lie against the truth.
15 This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic.
16 For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there.
17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield,
full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy.
18 Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

Halleluyah!
I think you're on a roll! ;)
 
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Minister Monardo

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I think you're on a roll! ;)
Scripturally, I would prefer "in the Spirit", but you are right, I have been in a zone all day, and the Holy Spirit has been answering questions as I encountered them today, and I think my typing speed is back up to 40 wpm. Lol
 
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