THE TRUE "REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY/SUPERSESSIONISM" OF THE BIBLE

BABerean2 said:

The exact same fulfillment is found below in the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.
For some strange reason you ignored that part of my post, and attempted to make it only about Dr. Varner.


Dan 9:27 And he shal confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate.

Daniel 9:27
And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.


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Was the summary of Daniel 9:24 fulfilled below by Christ during the first century?


Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.


Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

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Well as for the 1599 Bible and its footnotes- the church world was still in the throes of Covenant theology and allegorical interpretation popularized by Augustine!
They also were still fighting hard to bring true doctrine to light from the darkness of the dark millenia of the church!

But I listened to your preacher on Daniel 9:27 and he does what all allegorists do- take a simple word with a clear unambiguous meaning to the readers or hearers and then retranslate it!

I will give you one example (actually tewwo)

1. The he who makes the covenant with Israel for seven years has to go back to its nearest antecedent( your preacher was close hear), and the nearest antecedent is the prince of the people that shall come and destroy the sanctuary It cannot be Messiah the Prince!

2. Causing the sacrifice and oblation to cease! A normal usual typical reading of this simply means that the sacrificial system came to a physical end! but you rpreacher decided that God had a bad day when He inspired Daniel to write that because he tells us it means that his death ceased the sacrifices from being propitiatory anymore! He says in effect- I know what god said- but this is really what it means! Well I know Godf knew how to say what you rpreacher said and would have said that if He meant that!

Besides you rpreacher has a real problem- with the 70 years running continuous with out a break- He has Jesus making the covenant and dying both in 27 A.D.

Remember God saying this?

Daniel 9:24-26 King James Version (KJV)
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

See verse 26? In modern English it reads -after 483 years Jesus will die, but not for Himself! And at the same time your preacher is saying Jesus is making a firm covenant with Israel by His being baptized by John and the Father and Spirit coming down! C'mon man! That is even more far out than the allegories the Watchtower throws out!

jgr said:

Every one of the linked articles deplores what is claimed to be replacement theology, and every one explicitly mentions Irenaeus as being associated with it in some way.

But the bottom line of all of this, is this:

There is not a single quote which can be found from any recognized historical defender of the true faith between the 2nd and 18th centuries which espouses a dispensational-style "Two Peoples of God" dogma.

The unanimous belief was that the NT Church is the sole exclusive One People of God.

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You are still ignoring the following some of the articles you cited also state:


1. The second century believers did not believe themselves to have replaced Israel at first.

2. Irenaeus never went so far as to claim that the Church replaced Israel. He stopped short of that.

3. The sources you cite state that the doctrine of replacement theology had it beginnings in Justin Martyr, yet even then, he, and others after him, only believed that the Church had replaced Israel in the temporal sense and saw themselves as temporary stewards of the promises that initially pertained to Israel. They still believed that Israel would still repent and be restored as a nation.

Replacement theology in its current form did not become mainstream until the fifth century.

4. And the articles you cited deplore replacement theology for good reason as is pointed out in this source: The Evil of Replacement Theology


Not to mention, there were other professed defenders of the faith besides whom you mentioned amongst sects such as the Waldenses, the Anabaptists, the Puritans, and the Pilgrims; peoples who did not necessarily align themselves with the more dominant protestant factions and most definitely did not align themselves with the Catholic Church. The Waldenses historically never did.

jgr said:

The context we see is Messiah and His complete perfect accomplishments, which glorify Him.

What context do you see?

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That is only part of the context. It is Daniel 9:27 that is the subject of the debate.

nolidad said:

He has Jesus making the covenant and dying both in 27 A.D.

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I have listened to that video many times, and never heard what you are claiming above.

Christ was anointed by His Father from heaven at His baptism during 27 AD.

Because Bible scholars have found 4 Passovers in the Gospels, many believe the earthly ministry of Christ was about 3 1/2 years.

That puts His sacrifice at Calvary during 30 AD.

Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken "first" to Daniel's people for about 7 years before Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles.
This brings us up to 34 AD.

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claninja said:

Now if another temple is built in Jerusalem and it becomes a central worship spot again in modern times for believers, it would falsify the words of Christ in John 4:21.

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It would not falsify the words of Christ. Granted that it might be a central place of worship in Israel, it would not be so for the world at large.

claninja said:

Revelation 11 doesn't mention the rebuilding a temple. Revelation 11 only mentions that a temple is measured and the court outside of the temple was given to the nations and the city was trampled by the nations for 42 months.

You believe this is future, I believe already past, as Jerusalem was trampled for 42 months (66ad to 70ad) leading up to the temple destruction.

Since we disagree on the interpretation of a highly symbolic and apocalyptic book due to eschatological biases, it would be more fruitful to use scripture from the epistles or gospels that clearly and specifically mention a future rebuilding of a temple.

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That a temple is present according to Revelation chapter 11 clearly implies that there will be one when the other events of that chapter take place as well. 66 to 70 A.D. is a longer time span than forty-two months and the Gentiles had control of Jerusalem for much longer than 42 months. They ha control of and occupied it even before 70 A.D.

claninja said:

As clearly stated by God, He spoke to the prophets of Israel, unlike moses, in dreams, visions, parables, and riddles.
So we should rely on the NT to interpret the visions/dreams/parables/riddles of the OT.

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That is only possible when the New Testament points back to prophecies of the Old Testament.

claninja said:

Both the New Jerusalem and the Ezekiel temple/Jerusalem are where God dwells (Ezekiel 43:7, Revelation 21:3). Both the Ezekiel temple/Jerusalem have a river flowing from the temple (Ezekiel 47:1 revelation 22:1). Both the Ezekiel temple/Jerusalem have fruit growing near the river and leaves for healing the nations (Ezekiel 47:12, Revelation 22:2). Both the New Jerusalem and the Ezekiel temple/Jerusalem have 12 gates with the names of the 12 tribes of Israel on them (Ezekiel 48:30-35, Revelation 22:12). Thus the Ezekiel temple/Jerusalem = the New Jerusalem.

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The New Jerusalem does not have a river flowing from a temple since there is no temple there. But there is a throne from which it flows.

The river flowing out of the Temple in Ezekiel's vision has several trees growing along its banks. The river flowing out of the New Jerusalem only has one tree that grows on both sides of the river.

Ezekiel's Temple, though much larger than the other Temples before it, is still significantly smaller than the New Jerusalem. And once again, anything symbolic has an interpretation attached to it. If it does not have an interpretation attached to it, then it cannot be considered symbolic.

claninja said:

What NT scripture teaches that Christ will sit on a throne in an earthly temple building?

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What NT scripture refutes Ezekiel's vision since the Temple is the place from which God will be physically dwelling among men and since Christ is God, what reason is there to assume that He will not be ruling from a Temple as God and King when He brings His rule to earth?

Contenders Edge said:

That a temple is present according to Revelation chapter 11 clearly implies that there will be one when the other events of that chapter take place as well.

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The location of that temple is found in Revelation 11:19.

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Contenders Edge said:

Replacement theology in its current form did not become mainstream until the fifth century.

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Provide a name, quote, and source of any recognized historical defender of the faith between the 2nd and 18th centuries who is espousing replacement theology.

Contenders Edge said:

That is only part of the context. It is Daniel 9:27 that is the subject of the debate.

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Who is the other part of the context?

BABerean2 said:

The location of that temple is found in Revelation 11:19.

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That is not the Temple that John was commanded to measure.

jgr said:

Provide a name, quote, and source of any recognized historical defender of the faith between the 2nd and 18th centuries who is espousing replacement theology.

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Replacement theology as we know it was espoused and popularized largely by Augustine. The quote and source is found in the sources you already cited.

Contenders Edge said:

Replacement theology as we know it was espoused and popularized largely by Augustine. The quote and source is found in the sources you already cited.

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You have never quoted Augustine. Please provide a quote and source.

jgr said:

Who is the other part of the context?

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The Anti-Christ is the other part of the context. It is he who confirms a covenant with the people of Israel for seven years but violates it half way through. Christ does not confirm any covenant and then violate it. Christ is not associated with the people of the prince that shall come and who destroy the Temple since this prince who shall come comes after the crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension of Christ.

jgr said:

You have never quoted Augustine. Please provide a quote and source.

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It is found in the sources you already cited.

Contenders Edge said:

The Anti-Christ is the other part of the context. It is he who confirms a covenant with the people of Israel for seven years but violates it half way through. Christ does not confirm any covenant and then violate it. Christ is not associated with the people of the prince that shall come and who destroy the Temple since this prince who shall come comes after the crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension of Christ.

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What word in the passage means "antichrist"? There is no Hebrew word for "antichrist".

Contenders Edge said:

It is found in the sources you already cited.

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Since you seem to disagree with my definition of replacement theology, I need your quote to confirm your definition.

jgr said:

What word in the passage means "antichrist"? There is no Hebrew word for "antichrist".

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The characteristics and attributes which define the Anti-Christ are present and besides, he goes by other titles in the Old Testament which describe the Anti-Christ in the New Testament.

Contenders Edge said:

The characteristics and attributes which define the Anti-Christ are present and besides, he goes by other titles in the Old Testament which describe the Anti-Christ in the New Testament.

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What word in the passage has the characteristics and attributes which define antichrist?

jgr said:

Since you seem to disagree with my definition of replacement theology, I need your quote to confirm your definition.

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Augustine believed that the Church had forever replaced Israel as a chosen people of God which the sources you cited confirm. That is what replacement theology is. Because you have the cited sources before you, it shouldn't be that hard for you to find a quote from Augustine declaring that the Church had forever replaced Israel.

jgr said:

What word in the passage has the characteristics and attributes which define antichrist?

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Breaking promises he never intends to keep and bringing destruction are two characteristics mentioned.

Contenders Edge said:

Augustine believed that the Church had forever replaced Israel as a chosen people of God which the sources you cited confirm. That is what replacement theology is. Because you have the cited sources before you, it shouldn't be that hard for you to find a quote from Augustine declaring that the Church had forever replaced Israel.

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I'm not going to attempt to second guess your own definition.