The True Israel

[beloved57]

rom 9:
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed

There is only one True Israel of God, and that is comprised of the children of promise. Not the children of the flesh..
Israel is the hebrew word Yisrael:
God prevails

This name was given to Jacob after a struggling or wrestling with God, in fact, whom I believe to be The Lord Jesus christ..

gen 32:

24And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.

25And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.

26And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.

27And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.

28And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

29And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. 30And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

This is a momentous event in the Life of Jacob, and in biblical history, I humbly submit that this was a true conversion experience of the patriarch Jacob..and a type set forth as to all the the true Israelites indeed, whom Have prevailed with God through our Lord and Saviour Jesus christ, and its through him our lives have been preserved..
Jude 1:

1Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
The Israel, the true Israel has been preserved in Jesus christ.
Gal 6:
12As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.

13For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

14But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

15For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. 16And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God

Notice vs 12, those who want to make a fair show in the flesh, by constraining to circumcision, are no doubt, abrahams seed through the flesh..remember rom 9:
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed

abraham [Type of God] had two seeds, a seed according to the flesh, and a seed according to promise..
These two seeds have always been made to differ throughout biblical history, and this is pauls theology and the theology of Jesus christ..notice Jesus words to some very religous people, jews of His day..
Jn 8:


33They answered him, We be Abraham's seed,[by flesh] and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

34Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

35And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

36If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

37I know that ye are Abraham's seed[by flesh]; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

38I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. 39They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children[by promise], ye would do the works of Abraham.

So clearly Jesus recognizes two distinct seeds of or children of abraham.

The fleshly children of abraham, makes a show in the flesh, that is they trust in their performances and misunderstanding of the law covenant, to bring them acceptance with God,,see rom 10:1.

This israel paul says is under bondage, to do the whole law..

Lets look at gal 4:

21Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

22For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

This is extremely important, and gives to understand a profound truth, as to why we had the events of the life of hagar and her son recorded, to show forth a allegorical truth..

Most should know that the son that abraham had through hagar, ishmael, was not the son God promised, and because of the self effort taken by sarah and abraham to produce the promised son of God, the consequences were very disheartening and solemn indeed..

It lead to these words by God:
gen 18:

10Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.

11And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son. 12And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

This paul alludes to gal 4:

30Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

Now this is the point, the children of abraham by the handmaid, ishamael and his descendants, who are not heirs of promise..they being booted out the house..

This same principle applies to the natural seed of abraham, the physical Jew, they too are as ishamel and his mother, they too are not the heirs of God, the true children of God..

So God, is no more claiming them , the phsysical Jew as spiritual heirs through Jesus christ, no more than if he would claim ishmael and his descendants as heirs to the promises..

This is fascinating, because the dispensationalist of today, and those teaching that fleshly israel has a hope through Jesus christ, or that they will someday be recognized as the True people of God, they are saying, just as much, that ishmael descendants of abraham, have the same claim..which is impossible..

Paul is describing the Jews, the fleshly Jews, those making a shew in the flesh as being under bondadge to the covenant of works:

gal 4:

22For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

look at vs 25, hagar and her children, those children are the fleshly Jews of the nation of Israel, they are synomous to her real child ishmael, a outcast..

The fleshly israelites are outcast, just as much as heathens and unoticed as ishmael was..
Renmber God when speaking to abraham ? notice..
gen 22:

11And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.

12And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

God recognizes only one son of abraham here, its as though ishamael did not exist..
And so it is with israel of the flesh, they do not even exist as to being heirs of God and His promises, but only the children of promise, those given to abraham by promise of God as Isaach was..and if we be christ, then we be children of promise as issach:
gal 4:

28Now we, brethren,[jew or gentile] as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

And this is Israel..

 

[Iosias]

Jesus is the true Israel and all those who are in him are the true Israelites.

 

[billwald]

Spiritual Israel is a sub set of biological Israel. Spiritual Israel is also a sub set of biological gentiles

 

[ddub85]

There are no scriptures in the Bible which state that Gentiles are/become Israel.

rom 9:
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

When Paul says to Israel that they aren't all Israel, this in no way, shape, or form says that Gentiles are included in Israel.

7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children:

Being the seed of Abraham DOES NOT make one Israel.

...but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed

The seed of Israel is not through Abraham, but through Isaac, thereby ELIMINATING all Gentiles from being Israel.

28And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

Israel is by way of Jacob, who is through Isaac. If you're not of that route, then according to the Bible, you're NOT Israel. We Gentiles are NOT of that route. We stop at Abraham.

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed

Being of the the flesh ALONE isn't enough but you must ALSO be of the Spirit. We Gentiles ARE NOT Israel of the flesh to begin with, therefore NOT included in the staement.

Gal 4:21; This story is a comparison of law vs. grace, not about who is Israel. This story in no way includes Gentiles in Israel.

God Bless!

 

[squint]

Fun topic.

I pondered (and still do) WHY Israel for most of my believing life which is some decades now.

The opening posters observation is very astute, that the life of Hagar and her son were USED and LIVED as an allegory.

So we say then, an allegory of WHAT? Sure, we can take Paul's immediate words on the subject matter and come to conclusions of certain sorts, but a larger picture emerges when we realize that ALL OF ISRAEL was also given to US by God as an allegory as well.

1 Corinthians 10:11
Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

So again, allegory of WHAT? Examples of WHAT?

Israel was not a mere accident or a compilation of people making "freewill" decisions, as much as it might not have appeared to them at the time. The actions God invoked with and upon them were very very deliberate and very very "planned" by God Himself, and it was done to show us MANY things. That's one of the problems when we step into allegory land or example land. Those categories are a minefield waiting to happen.

And that is when the scriptures begin to get very very interesting. The physical examples that we have in the O.T. and even in the N.T. are ALLEGORIES and EXAMPLES that were played out in REAL LIFE. No, the facts are not simply stories. An entire RACE of people LIVED and DIED in EXAMPLE LAND...all of them who are written of therein. God Himself MOVED and SPOKE in that RACE of called out ones and He did so with deliberation and purpose that culminated in His Begotten Son In Whom God Himself WAS.

No small matter then with "Israel." IF God came through THEM in the flesh, we who believe perhaps should pay a good deal of respect to what transpired.

I always start my recollections of Israel with Paul's fact that he so wonderfully wrote in Romans 11, and wherein I personally have found a great treasure chest of HOPE...

ALL OF ISRAEL shall be saved, even ENEMIES of the Gospel. That's right. Read ALL about it in Romans 11:26-32.

It was on that DAY that I understood the decimation that understanding brought me to with regards to nearly ALL of common teaching on predestination and common teaching on freewill. I had to throw out BOTH of these entire camps because they BOTH come into direct conflict with PAUL's open statements on this matter of ALL OF ISRAEL'S SALVATION.

If you are "allowed" by God Himself to see the facts (as only God Himself can lead a man to actually love ALL of his neighbors as himself) you can easily backtrack Paul's statements in Romans 11 to see what Israel's PROBLEM was.

That PROBLEM was the "fact" that God Himself had placed upon them A SPIRIT OF STUPOR. Now the "fact" that it was PLACED upon them means that spirit of STUPOR was NOT ISRAEL, but a SPIRIT that was PUT UPON THEM. So, do you STILL want to blame and accuse Israel? Do you want to ELIMINATE THEM on the basis of what GOD HIMSELF did to them....???

You shouldn't. ALL of Israel are written in the scriptures as being GOD'S CHILDREN. All of them. Read all about it in scriptures such as Deut. 14:1 and Psalm 82:6.

IF you can connect then the dots on this matter you will clearly SEE "why" ALL of Israel shall be SAVED...down to the LAST ONE and down to the UTTERMOST. Ezekiel also depicts this RISING of BONES and the restoration of the their flesh in the valley of dry bones. Can you NOT see this fact again right there? Yes...ALL of Israel SHALL BE SAVED without any doubting and no matter WHO says otherwise. God Himself WILL DO THIS! He will RAISE THEM from their GRAVES and GIVE THEM LIFE. Every single one of them NO MATTER what uses they had in this present wicked and evil generation.

And that's where we get to the ALLEGORY and the EXAMPLES of scriptures.

You cannot SEE Devils. But Jesus DID. He spoke to THEM in the people of Israel. In some cases He cast them out. In some cases He commanded them to SHUT UP. In some cases He REPRIMANDED THEM in people.

So, do you now SEE the SPIRIT OF STUPOR that was UPON ISRAEL???

Walk back a little further with Paul into Romans 9 and you will see then that NOT ALL OF ISRAEL is ISRAEL...

Well, in the spirit of LIGHT AND LIFE you should NOW SEE that what was NOT Israel was THE SPIRIT OF STUPOR...hello. The SPIRIT OF STUPOR that Jesus SPOKE TO in Israel is what is NOT Israel...hello.

God has NOT condemned His people. His CHILDREN. Never! God has NOT abandoned them. God forbid as Paul said.

Paul gave us a PICTURE of the construction of EVERY LUMP right there in Romans 9, the most MISunderstood segment of scripture in the entire Bible imho.

Paul says that IN EACH LUMP there is a VESSEL OF HONOR...(that would be THE REAL ISRAEL, THE CHILDREN OF GOD) and that there in EACH LUMP there is ALSO a VESSEL OF DISHONOR...

ding ding ding...the bells should be going off in your heart right about now....because the VESSEL OF DISHONOR that YOU carry in YOUR OWN HEART does NOT WANT to be SEEN or FOUND OUT....but trust the scriptures...you DO have a VESSEL OF DISHONOR AND WRATH within YOUR BODY as well.

Backtrack Paul to Romans 7 and in verses 17-21 you will find that long before Paul DISSECTED the construction of ISRAEL in Romans 9 and the culmination in Romans 11 he DISSECTED his own body and mind.

In those verses Paul himself says that the SIN that indwelt his own flesh was NO LONGER I. Paul DIVIDED himself as God's child FROM his indwelling sin.

Paul ALSO stated that when he desired to DO GOOD that EVIL was PRESENT with him. Do you SEE Paul's VESSEL OF DISHONOR YET?

OR does your heart cry out to CONDEMN, BLAME AND ACCUSE only Paul???

Those who are GOD'S CHILDREN in this present life will SEE and HEAR these matters. Those who are NOT HEARING remain UNDER CONTROL of the VESSELS OF DISHONOR AND WRATH...just as ISRAEL's people were, no matter WHAT is painted across your LIPS...

Now, go back and take a closer look at ISRAEL and you will see THE DIVISION written of througout the scriptures. You will see the EXAMPLES and ALLEGORIES in nearly EVERY account and these EXAMPLES and ALLEGORIES are about MANKIND and about DEVILKIND...who just happen to be OVERLAPPED in this present environment.

You heard the GOOD NEWS today...and in so you will meet THE OPPOSERS...and you will MEET THEM IN THE MIRROR first...right there in your DUST BODY that the SERPENT was committed to in Genesis...3....

Yep. You carry your own enemies with you. And in this God is showing you A DIVINE QUALITY OF HIM...of LOVE...and that would be LONG SUFFERING...

God will DISCARD the vessels of DISHONOR and WRATH at some point in this world. But God will save EVERY SINGLE VESSEL OF HONOR...

Israel then is a PICTURE of ALL MANKIND...believe it or NOT. It is WRITTEN and it WILL NOT CHANGE.

enjoy!

squint

 

[Terral]

Hi Beloved:

rom 9:
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed
There is only one True Israel of God, and that is comprised of the children of promise. Not the children of the flesh..
Israel is the hebrew word Yisrael:
God prevails
This name was given to Jacob after a struggling or wrestling with God, in fact, whom I believe to be The Lord Jesus christ..

You began by quoting Romans 9:6-8, without bothering to include verses 1-5 concerning Israel “my kinsmen according to the flesh,” to now change the subject entirely to Jacob wrestling in a vain attempt to push a “Replacement Theology” (wiki) Agenda. Paul and God are teaching the members of “Christ’s Body” the truth about ‘their’ true identity as ‘children of promise’ setting us apart from Israel of the flesh but NOT REPLACING THEM. Let’s go back to the top of Romans 9 and look at this lesson in a true context of what Paul is really teaching.

"I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen." Romans 9:1-5.

"My brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites," represent God’s chosen race (1Peter 2:9) on this earth with an inheritance ON THIS EARTH in the Kingdom of God “on earth AS IT IS in heaven.” Matt. 6:10. Israel of the flesh continues to be represented by millions and millions and millions of people sitting blind on the sidelines (Rom. 11:8, 25), as the members of our “His Body” Church (Col. 1:24) are gathered by God calling us through the Gospel. Israel of the flesh is living in anticipation of the resurrection when all Israel is saved and led into the Promised Land ON THIS EARTH:

“Then He said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel; behold, they say, 'Our bones are dried up and our hope has perished. We are completely cut off.' Therefore prophesy and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord God, "Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel.” Ezekiel 37:11-12.

This prophecy cannot possibly apply to the members of “Christ’s Body” obedient to our Gospel, because our citizenship is IN HEAVEN (Phil. 3:20) with a “share in the inheritance of the saints in Light” (Col. 1:12) in “His HEAVENLY Kingdom” (2Tim. 4:18). In fact, your attempts to lure others into the deceptions of “Replacement Theology” defies Paul’s own teachings separating Israel of the flesh ‘and’ our mystery “Body of Christ” (Eph. 4:12) into two completely separate ‘dispensations.’

“For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "The deliverer will come from Zion, he will remove ungodliness from Jacob.” This is My covenant with them (Heb. 8:8-12), when I take away their sins. From the standpoint of The Gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” Romans 11:25-29.

God calls people to become members of the “Body of Christ” from Israel of the flesh ‘and’ the Gentiles, but those ‘two’ dispensations continue to exist under God just the same. This current “Dispensation of God’s Grace” (Eph. 3:2 = diagram in red) will come to AND END at our Rapture, then Elijah will appear to begin the process of restoring all things (Matt. 17:10-11) as the deliverer from Zion and as the ‘prophet’ of Acts 3:22-26 when the “Tabernacle of David” (Acts 15:16-18) is restored and rebuilt. Now, if you can see Israel of the flesh standing there on the sidelines in blindness, THEN we can begin recognizing the “children of promise” from Paul’s teaching:

“But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "Through Isaac your descendants will be named." That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.” Romans 9:6-8.

Paul makes a transition from speaking about Israel of the flesh to begin talking about who qualifies as the ‘children OF GOD.’ However, a son of Jacob born in Jerusalem today is just as much a part of Israel of the flesh as any other Jew AND he shall live with the same expectation of being raised from the dead for the solitary purpose of being led into the land of Israel! Eze. 37:11-12. There is still a “His HEAVENLY Kingdom” (2Tim. 4:18) AND a Kingdom of God “on earth AS IT IS in heaven” (Matt. 6:10) where Israel of the flesh shall serve ‘David’ (Eze. 34:23-25 = diagram) for almost 1000 years AND ‘forever’ (Eze. 37:24-28) in the New Earth of Revelation 21:1+. While Israel of the flesh as a nation and people is disqualified from the race by adding works to our gospel (Rom. 9:30-32), God has a plan that includes Israel as His “chosen race” and “holy nation” (1Peter 2:9) on the earth. Members posting in the Dispensationalism Forum are supposed to know the difference in being of Israel of the flesh AND being a member of Christ's Body,

IN Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[Notrash]

There are no scriptures in the Bible which state that Gentiles are/become Israel.

rom 9:
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
When Paul says to Israel that they aren't all Israel, this in no way, shape, or form says that Gentiles are included in Israel.
7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children:
Being the seed of Abraham DOES NOT make one Israel.
...but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed
The seed of Israel is not through Abraham, but through Isaac, thereby ELIMINATING all Gentiles from being Israel.

I think that by continuing into chapter nine further you can get a different concept for what Paul is saying concerning the children of promise. He uses this example to show who the children of mercy are.

First though, the 'seed' idea is continually fulfilled in a Spirtual fulfillment, not a fleshly fulfillment, although sometimes it is fleshly descendant that carries the spirtual seed. Jesus was also confrimed through physical lineage.

In Jer 33:27-34, the house of Israel was sewn to the seed of men and the seed of beast, but the promise of the new covenant was fulfilled in the Seed of Israel. All 3 of these 'seeds' are speaking metaphoracily or 'spiritually'. If it were physical, then the house of Israel and Judah were impregnated with seeds of some beasts. And we know that to not be true.

Likewise, in Rom 9, Abrahams 'seed' is not only physically through the fulfillment of the promise of Isaac (symbolizing the promise of Christ) but it is through Abrahams faith when he believed God that Sara would bear a son. Thus the 'seed' lineage is carried down through those who have faith to believe God.

The seed of faith in the promise is confirmed by the next verse which you stopped before.

9. For this [is] the word of promise, (in which Abraham believed)

At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.[/quote]

The next several verses talk of the election of God using Isaac and Jacob as examples even before they were born. And these things point towards the election of the 'seed' and believers in Christ.

In verse 16 it sums things up saying.

So then [it is] not of him that willeth, (not according to the flesh) nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

The next few verses talk more of Gods election, this time even raising up those who refuse his ways(such as Pharoah as an example)

Verse 22. [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23. And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24. Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

So here in verse 24, we have the confirmation and continuation of the ideas of verse 6. That 'all Israel' is not describing (fleshly, physical)Israel", but 'all Israel' is those of both jew and other nations (Gentiles)on whom God will bestow mercy to have faith to believe in His son and become children of the promise, (i.e. children of God, John 1:12) of the Gentiles according to the election and foreknowledge and promise of God, just as Isaac.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ (Romans) through whom he has spoken to us in these last days. (Hebrews)

There are no scriptures in the Bible which state that Gentiles are/become Israel.

The very next verse in Romans 11 does just that!!!!

vs 25; As he saith also in Osee,(Hosea) I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

If we use theword 'nations' in place of Gentiles it gives less of a anti-jewish flavor and is an equally accurate translation.

Where were the Gentiles first called 'Not my people' ? Answer: When the Israelites were first called 'the people of God' on the east side of the Jordan before they crossed over into Jerico. By exclusion, the other nations were now called 'not his people'.

Deut 27:9 And Moses and the priests the Levites spake unto all Israel, saying, Take heed, and hearken, O Israel; this day thou art become the people of the LORD thy God.

Why did they have to be called the people of the Lord God when they were already genetic "israel'? Because being the people of God is not a matter of descendency but of Faith. Most of those who were led out of Egypt died without seeing the promised land. But no other people had seen the things that they had seen and would have had the opportunity for the faith that this group would have.

Deut 4:33 Did [ever] people hear the voice of God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as thou hast heard, and live?

Deut 7:6 For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that [are] upon the face of the earth. (Due to their experiences and invoked faith, not due to their lineage).

It was by exclusion that the other nations were first called not my people on the east side of the Jordan in the mountains of the Decopolis. It was there that the church in Christ of Jerusalem and Judea escaped to be formed as a church of all nations (Gentiles) and called the children of the Living God through the seed of faith in Christ. John 1:12.

It came to pass as was told in Hosea, and restated by Paul. This is the transferal of the blessing of God from the old covenant nation of Israel and it's opportunities to the New covenant international nation of Spiritual (believing) Israel that was prophesied in Daniel 7:13,14; 27.

 

[RTE (Road to Emmaus)]

ddub85,


When Paul says to Israel that they aren't all Israel, this in no way, shape, or form says that Gentiles are included in Israel.
On the contrary, that is precisely what it says.

It tells us that the set of people known as the true (spiritual) Israel, is greater in number than the set of people who happen to be both Israel of the flesh and the true (spiritual) Israel, and that therefore, the true Israel must include Gentiles.

So you need to do some basic Ven Diagrams.

 

[RTE (Road to Emmaus)]

Terral,


Paul and God are teaching the members of “Christ’s Body” the truth about ‘their’ true identity as ‘children of promise’ setting us apart from Israel of the flesh but NOT REPLACING THEM.
Rubbish. You are denying the obvious.
The children of promise are implied to be the first mentioned Israel of Rom 9:6.

The term "Replacement theology" is deliberately pejorative: a manipulation by those of Reversion Theology who have not learned that the old is passed away, but who wish to revert to the past.

Have you never read that flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Have you never read that God is no respecter of persons? Have you never read Christ's own words that the kingdom of God would be taken away from Israel?

 

[Terral]

Hi RTE:

Terral >> Paul and God are teaching the members of “Christ’s Body” the truth about ‘their’ true identity as ‘children of promise’ setting us apart from Israel of the flesh but NOT REPLACING THEM.

RTE >> Rubbish. You are denying the obvious. The children of promise are implied to be the first mentioned Israel of Rom 9:6.

No sir. I am stating the obvious. Paul just finished describing Israel of the flesh in Romans 9:1-5 to THEN begin describing the ‘children of promise’ in Romans 9:6-8. Post #6 (link) awaits your rebuttals, if a solid argument for anything crosses your mind. :0)

The term "Replacement theology" is deliberately pejorative: a manipulation by those of Reversion Theology who have not learned that the old is passed away, but who wish to revert to the past.

No sir. Replacement Theology is what you are teaching in error to what ‘is’ written in God’s Living Word concerning Israel ‘and’ our mystery Body of Christ saved by God’s grace through faith ‘apart’ from works. Eph. 2:8-9. Israel is a 'nation' and a 'people' descended from Jacob/Israel, but our mystery "Body of Christ" (Eph. 4:12) is made up of BELIEVERS in OUR GOSPEL. Period! Too simple . . . While some believers in our gospel were taken from Israel of the flesh, the Apostle Paul is writing ‘to’ a completely separate ‘dispensation’ (Vine's definition) in the members of “Christ’s BODY” (1Cor. 12:27) also called “His Body” Church (Col. 1:24), according to “this mystery among the Gentiles.” Col. 1:27. Paul calls "my gospel" the "gospel to the UNCIRCUMCISED" (Gal. 2:7), but I bet you think that applies to Israel. :0) Some people simply do NOT know the differences between Israel of the flesh and our mystery church, as YOU errantly believe our mystery church has replaced Israel of the flesh.

Have you never read that flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of God?

Are you going to ‘quote >>’ from my work to offer opposing supported arguments, OR ask me a lot of ridiculous questions? :0) Of course flesh and blood does not have any place in “His HEAVENLY Kingdom” (2Tim. 4:18), but that is the very reason we are CHANGED (1Cor. 15:51-53).

Have you never read that God is no respecter of persons?

More ridiculous questions? :0) Lordy, Lordy . . . Israel of the flesh continues to be a completely separate ‘dispensation’ from Gentiles and our mystery Body of Christ, whether you respect me in the morning or not. :0)

Have you never read Christ's own words that the kingdom of God would be taken away from Israel?

Lord-Have-Mercy . . . The ‘deluding influence’ (2Thes 2:11) is very powerful indeed . . . Please forgive, but I have no time for those refusing to accept ‘the truth’ about the VAST differences between Israel of the flesh AND the members of Christ’s Body part of the ‘Dispensation of God’s Grace.’ Ephesians 3:2. Maybe these verses will assist you in coming to 'the truth' of what Paul is really teaching the members of Christ's Body:

"Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. Therefore IF [huge qualifier] anyone is IN Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come." 2Corinthians 5:16-17.

If anyone is really and truly "IN Christ Jesus," then they are a new creature part of a totally "New Creation" (Gal. 6:15). Some folks simply want to replace Israel of the flesh, because fleshy things are all they 'can' see right along with the things of this earth like Israel of the flesh:

"Therefore IF [another HUGE qualifier] you have been raised up with Christ [see Gal 2:20], keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things above, NOT on the things that are on earth [like Israel of the flesh]. For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ "IN" God. When Christ, who is our life, is revealed [Matt. 24:30-31], then you also will be revealed with Him in glory." Colossians 3:1-4.

While the members of Christ's BODY are looking up with eyes fixed upon Christ at the right hand of God, some folks continue running around with eyes fixed upon the things of this earth. GL with that, as I am,

In Christ Jesus right this moment,

Terral

 

[A Brother In Christ]

We are not promised the earth as Jews were ... Matt 5:5

but we are citizenship in the heavens... phil 3:20-21

 

[Terral]

Hi Brother In Christ:

We are not promised the earth as Jews were ... Matt 5:5

but we are citizenship in the heavens... phil 3:20-21

Not quite. :0) The ‘heavens’ of this universe is the abode of the angels (diagram = golden yellow on right), while men incarnate in the ‘earth’ section also known as the visible universe in blue on the left where David is seated upon his throne (Eze 37:24-28). Note very carefully that the heavens and the earth are separated by ‘heaven’ (Gen. 1:8) of this Adamic Realm, but the “Kingdom of His Beloved Son” (Col. 1:13) is part of the “Highest Heaven” (1Kings 8:27) where believers in our gospel are seated “IN Christ Jesus” (Eph. 2:6) with lives hidden with Christ IN GOD (Col. 3:1-3). Looking at ‘heaven’ of this Adamic Universe, you can see the Lamb standing in the ‘center of the throne’ (like Rev. 7:17 before the New Creation) with the Body of Moses at His Right Hand ‘and’ the Body of Elijah on His Left Hand comprised of angels. These angels represent the greater halves of Adam’s Body, while the men represent the lesser halves of Eve’s body made up of ‘all the living.’ Gen. 3:20. Exactly one man and exactly one angel are joined together in marriage to become ‘one’ living soul, as the man leaves the earthly realm AND the angel leaves the heavens realm to THEN have residence in ‘heaven’ as an immortal soul (like us = 1Cor. 15:51-53). This explains why the members of our mystery church judge the world (men of the earth) and the angels (of the heavens), as Paul teaches in 1Cor. 6:2-3 (diagram).

Going back to our original diagram (here), what you see at the bottom (Christ’s Mystery) is Adam laying on his side with his spirit (head) facing the right, as the heavens containing the angels represent his broken spirit. The visible universe (earth) is Adam’s physical body (Eve) containing the angel’s lesser half making up the ‘world’ over on the left side of the equation. Then in the center you see the enlarging blood witness (heaven = Adam's soul) where New Jerusalem is Adam’s new heart or Administrative Hub were our mystery Body of Christ is seated IN the Lamb in the center of the throne judging the world (men) and the angels. Some of you can visualize these things at the Mount of Transfiguration (diagram) where Peter, John and James (Christ’s three witnesses) see Elijah (spirit witness = Adam), Christ (blood witness) and Moses (water witness = Eve) representing the Body of Moses (Jude 1:9, 1Cor. 10:1-5), and the Body of Christ (Eph. 4:12, Col. 1:24) and the Body of Elijah (the angels = known through the types) representing God’s Three Witnesses (My Beloved Son) to all mankind and their angelic heavens hosts. Again, exactly one spirit witness (the angels) is being rejoined to exactly one water witness (men) for the two to become ‘one’ for summing up IN Christ (blood witness), as described by Paul to open his Epistle to the Ephesians:

“He made known to us the Mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed “IN” Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times [Eph. 3:9], that is, the summing up of all things ‘IN’ Christ [blood witness], things in the heavens [spirit witness] and things on the earth [water witness].” Ephesians 1:9-10.

Now, if you are able to follow along (same diagram), we have the exact same summing up process taking place ‘above’ in Heaven, which is the “Highest Heaven” where you see “God Who Is” seated upon His Throne very much IN His Son. That’s right! Christ’s head (spirit) is also over on the right (Father Realm) in golden yellow glory, and His Body is over in the ‘visible’ side in the blue “Holy Spirit Realm” having a lesser glory like the earth has a lesser glory than the heavens in this Adamic Realm. “Christ Jesus” is the WHOLE REALM with the “Kingdom of His Beloved Son” being the place where the two seas meet (overlap) shown in red. When Paul says that the members of Christ’s Body have ‘citizenship IN HEAVEN’ (singular), then he is talking about believers having an inheritance in the “Highest Heaven” where our lives are not only hidden ‘with Christ’ at His Right Hand, but also IN God Himself where nobody can possibly separate us from Him.

The “Mystery of Christ” (Eph. 3:4, Col. 4:3) concerns the summing up of all things in the heavens ‘and’ earth of this Adamic Realm ONLY, which is shown to be ‘horizontal’ in the “New Heavens And New Earth” diagram. God’s Mystery is Christ (Col. 2:2), because this entire universe is being summed up in Christ (the Lamb) in heaven horizontally ‘and’ summed up IN Christ Jesus (F+S+HS) vertically at the very same time. :0) Note that God’s Infinite Realm is cut off (top of diagram), but this is the ‘spirit witness’ for the two witnesses below in the persons of Christ Jesus (blood witness = F+S+HS) and Adam (water witness = heavens, heaven and earth). When all of this began at the beginning, the these three witnesses (God, The Word/Heaven, Adam/Creation) looked like this (diagram). Do you see “My Father Who Is In Heaven” (Matt. 10:32-33) anywhere in “The Word” standing between God and men (1Tim. 2:5)?? No. Why not? The Father ‘and’ the Holy Spirit are both still IN The Word, just like the heavens, heaven and earth are still joined together in “Adam” as “The Creation” making up “The Earth” in Genesis 1:1. These three witnesses become nine witnesses (diagram), which allows the original Twelve to become the “One” Man Of God of Figure 2. Now, if you will look all the way down to the bottom of Figure 2, you will see the Heavens (spirit), Heaven (blood witness = Gen. 1:8) and Earth (visible universe) of This Creation, but ‘our’ citizenship is in the “Realm of the Word” and particularly IN the Kingdom of His Only Begotten and Beloved Son!

The Lamb of God in ‘heaven’ of this creation is the incarnation of Christ Jesus (F+S+HS) in this universe, while Jesus Christ of the flesh is the incarnation of the same Lamb of God upon this earth. When John the Baptist (incarnation of the heavens, heaven and earth) pointed to Jesus Christ as the Lamb of God (John 1:29, 36), then he was pointing NOT to Calvary, but to heaven above in this universe AND to the Highest Heaven where Christ Jesus is the “Heavenly Adam” summing up all things in this universe. That’s right! Jesus Christ is the Lord God of the Old Testament representing the Highest Heaven ‘and’ the man sent from God is His 'son of God' (Luke 3:38) Adam ("prophet" of Acts 3:21-26 who is "MORE than a prophet") representing this entire universe in one ‘man.’ In case you are unaware, then there is exactly 'one' son of God representing this entire universe as his body, soul and spirit (all die IN Adam) 'and' everyone else is adopted 'as' sons . . . John the Baptist is the prophet (Elijah), priest (son of Zacharias and Elizabeth = Luke 1:5) and king (David = Eze 37:24-28, Jer. 30:7-9), while Jesus Christ is the Heavenly Prophet, Priest and King who formed and sent him; so that all would believe through him (John 1:7). Therefore, our citizenship is really and truly in the “Highest Heaven,” as Christ was raised above all the heavens of this universe ‘and’ with us IN Him. :0)

“He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.” Ephesians 4:10.

Since Christ has ascended FAR above ALL THE HEAVENS, then our citizenship is obviously FAR above all the heavens of this Adamic Universe. A better understanding of this teaching is gathered by rereading from Paul’s statements about the believers in our gospel being raised up “with Christ” to be seated “IN Christ Jesus,”

“But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up WITH HIM, and seated us WITH HIM IN the heavenly places IN Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us IN Christ Jesus.” Ephesians 2:4-7.

By a show of hands, how many realized that the believers in our gospel have been seated “with Christ” (Jesus of the flesh) in the heavenly places that are IN Christ Jesus? :0) Those of you interested in knowing more about the differences between Jesus of the flesh ‘and’ Christ Jesus can find that here. I am,

In Christ Jesus right this moment,

Terral

 

[A Brother In Christ]

I understand positonal truth.... sitting with Christ at the right hand right now...

when we are joined ... 1 jn 3:2-3 we will all ways be with the Lord ... 1 thes 4:16-18

Jews is promised the earth.... thus the new heaven and new earth... 2 peter 3:12

 

[Terral]

Hi Brother In Christ:

I understand positional truth.... sitting with Christ at the right hand right now...

when we are joined ... 1 jn 3:2-3 we will all ways be with the Lord ... 1 thes 4:16-18

Jews is promised the earth.... thus the new heaven and new earth... 2 peter 3:12

Not quite. :0) The subjects of ‘positional truth’ for the member of Christ’s BODY (that’s us = Church #2*) and the member of Christ’s BRIDE (Jn 3:29 = that’s Peter, John, James, etc. = Church #1*) represent two very different things. Above you mixed Paul’s grace dispensational teachings for ‘us’ (Body of Christ) with John’s kingdom dispensational teachings for the Prophetic Kingdom “Bride” based very much upon WORKS. Your quote from 1John says:

“See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. And everyone who has ‘this’ hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.” 1John 3:1-3.

Do you see the problem with applying these precepts of “Kingdom Doctrine” to the members of Christ’s BODY in the world today? The believers in ‘our gospel’ (Gospel #2) are saved by God’s GRACE through FAITH apart from works (Eph. 2:8-10) to be justified by faith APART from works (Rom. 4:4-6), unlike the Kingdom Disciples obeying the “Gospel of the Kingdom” (Gospel #1) justified by ‘WORKS and not by faith alone.” James 2:20-24.

“You see that a man is justified BY WORKS and NOT by faith alone.” James 2:24.

Those of you mixing the doctrinal composition of the “Two Gospels” of the NT together into one ‘false gospel’ haven’t the slightest clue of what I am even talking about, because you are distorting the ‘wisdom given him’ to your ‘own destruction.’ 2Peter 3:14-16. Peter, John, James and EVERYONE called to God via the “Gospel of the Kingdom” MUST take part in the “Marriage Supper Of The Lamb” and purify themselves through a myriad of WORKS and WORKS and more WORKS in order to obtain what God has given us (Body of Christ) for free. :0) Bear in mind that this same “Marriage Supper Of The Lamb” ceremony takes place at the end of every age for all the ‘ages to come’ (Eph. 2:7):

“And a voice came from the throne, saying, "Give praise to our God, all you His bond-servants, you who fear Him, the small and the great." Then I heard something like the voice of a great multitude and like the sound of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, saying, "Hallelujah! For the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigns. Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the Marriage Of The Lamb has come and His bride (beginning in Jn 3:29) has made herself ready. It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the RIGHTEOUS ACTS of the saints. Then he said to me, "Write, 'Blessed are those who are invited to the Marriage Supper Of The Lamb[/b]. And he said to me, "These are true words of God." Then I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." Revelation 19:5-10.

Peter, John, James, Hebrews, Jude and Revelation ALL speak about ‘prophecy’ and the fulfillment of ‘prophecy’ for the Prophetic Kingdom “Bride” joined to the Lamb by the covenant of MARRIAGE. However, the members of Christ’s BODY (that’s us) are already IN Christ Jesus and already IN the Lamb being seated with Him IN the heavenly places that are IN Christ Jesus. Eph. 2:4-7. When you look at the Lamb of Revelation from now on, then wake the heck up and realize that the believers in OUR GOSPEL are already IN Him, as we were Raptured (1Thes 4:16-17) to put on immortality (1Cor. 15:51-53) with the trumpet sounding off “behind” John (Rev. 1:10 = 1Thes 4:16, 1Cor. 15:52) way back in Revelation 1:10!!! :0) Peter, John and James are standing upon the “sea of glass” (Rev. 4:6, 15:2 = diagram) at the Lamb’s right hand, throughout the entire 1000 Year Day of the Lord (diagram = in light blue) where Elijah is on the earth restoring all things (Matt. 17:10-11) as the “prophet” of Acts 3:22-23. These ‘late rains’ (James 5:7) Kingdom Bride Disciples are joining Peter, John and James, which includes those martyred throughout the Great Tribulation (Rev. 7:14-16) in anticipation of being joined to the Lamb at the Marriage Supper Of The Lamb. However, at the end of every age, these Kingdom Bride members are judged ‘by us’ (1Cor. 6:2-3) to see if they qualify to become a member of Christ’s BODY for judging the world and the angels.

The difference is that a Kingdom Disciples looks up through heaven to see ‘the heavens’ (diagram**), while the member of Christ’s Body (that’s us) looks up from within the Lamb to see God’s Infinite Realm (Fig 1**). :0) Those of us already IN Christ Jesus with an inheritance in “His Heavenly Kingdom” (Fig 2** = 2Tim. 4:18) have already seen our angel and man halves joined into one “immortal soul,” while Peter, John, James and everyone part of the Kingdom “Bride” continues to be a ‘water witness’ host for their angelic super-half still standing on the sea of glass on the other side of Christ on His left hand (thus 24 elders = 12 of men and 12 of their angelic halves). Actually, the angels see things backwards (everything is left handed in the heavens), so they see themselves as standing at the Lamb’s right hand too. :0)

Jews is promised the earth.... thus the new heaven and new earth... 2 peter 3:12

This is another misconception of C.R.Stam that I addressed here in case anyone is interested. The Jews (Israel of the flesh) are actually given a ‘twofold’ promise to become as the stars of the heavens ‘and’ as the sand upon the seashore. Gen. 22:17. The difference is that our mystery “Body of Christ” is promised only a ‘heavenly’ destiny (Gen. 15:5-6),

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[Iosias]

We are not promised the earth as Jews were ... Matt 5:5

We have been promised the world:

Romans 4:13 "It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith."

 

[A Brother In Christ]

we get the the promise of heirs by righteousness by faith .... but we get the heavens

heb 11:39-40 we get better promises than those who was named earlier

2 peter 1:4 greatest and best promises

1 good... 2 better.... 3 best

 

[SGM4HIM]

Here's a promise that doesn't sound to shabby

Revelation 21
1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Christ’s BODY[/B] (that’s us = Church #2*) and the member of Christ’s BRIDE (Jn 3:29 = that’s Peter, John, James, etc. = Church #1*) represent two very different things. Above you mixed Paul’s grace dispensational teachings for ‘us’ (Body of Christ) with John’s kingdom dispensational teachings for the Prophetic Kingdom “Bride” based very much upon WORKS. Your quote from 1John says:
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one spirit, even as ye called in one hope of calling

what is different is different promises heb 11:1-40, 2 peter 1:4

Do you see the problem with applying these precepts of “Kingdom Doctrine” to the members of Christ’s BODY in the world today? The believers in ‘our gospel’ (Gospel #2) are saved by God’s GRACE through FAITH apart from works (Eph. 2:8-10) to be justified by faith APART from works (Rom. 4:4-6), unlike the Kingdom Disciples obeying the “Gospel of the Kingdom” (Gospel #1) justified by ‘WORKS and not by faith alone.” James 2:20-24.
Well we agree to a point

the law dispensation was saved by faith but gets more glory Shining like the stars, moon , as stars Exdous 19-John 12... Rev 6-19

The grace dispensation is saved by grace and is raised in grace .. shineing like the Son in humanity


Those of you mixing the doctrinal composition of the “Two Gospels” of the NT together into one ‘false gospel’ haven’t the slightest clue of what I am even talking about, because you are distorting the ‘wisdom given him’ to your ‘own destruction.’ 2Peter 3:14-16. Peter, John, James and EVERYONE called to God via the “Gospel of the Kingdom” MUST take part in the “Marriage Supper Of The Lamb” and purify themselves through a myriad of WORKS and WORKS and more WORKS in order to obtain what God has given us (Body of Christ) for free. :0) Bear in mind that this same “Marriage Supper Of The Lamb” ceremony takes place at the end of every age for all the ‘ages to come’ (Eph. 2:7):

Peter, John, James, Hebrews, Jude and Revelation ALL speak about ‘prophecy’ and the fulfillment of ‘prophecy’ for the Prophetic Kingdom “Bride” joined to the Lamb by the covenant of MARRIAGE. However, the members of Christ’s BODY (that’s us) are already IN Christ Jesus and already IN the Lamb being seated with Him IN the heavenly places that are IN Christ Jesus. Eph. 2:4-7.

This is postional ... otherwise we would not sin... 1 jn 3:2-3, eph 4:3,13

When you look at the Lamb of Revelation from now on, then wake the heck up and realize that the believers in OUR GOSPEL are already IN Him, as we were Raptured (1Thes 4:16-17) to put on immortality (1Cor. 15:51-53) with the trumpet sounding off “behind” John (Rev. 1:10 = 1Thes 4:16, 1Cor. 15:52) way back in Revelation 1:10!!!

We are the elders in rev 4... I agree rapture before the Great Trib

:0) Peter, John and James are standing upon the “sea of glass” (Rev. 4:6, 15:2 = diagram) at the Lamb’s right hand, throughout the entire 1000 Year Day of the Lord (diagram = in light blue) where Elijah is on the earth restoring all things (Matt. 17:10-11) as the “prophet” of Acts 3:22-23.
Matt 11:11-14 elijah is John the Baptist
But in Rev it will be someone else.. mal 4:5,lk 9:30
These ‘late rains’ (James 5:7) Kingdom Bride Disciples are joining Peter, John and James, which includes those martyred throughout the Great Tribulation (Rev. 7:14-16) in anticipation of being joined to the Lamb at the Marriage Supper Of The Lamb. However, at the end of every age, these Kingdom Bride members are judged ‘by us’ (1Cor. 6:2-3) to see if they qualify to become a member of Christ’s BODY for judging the world and the angels.
Dispensational Grace believers can not be saved during the law dispensation eph 2:11-12 thus likewise the same must be true except a transitional period .... gentile had to become Jews in practice

The difference is that a Kingdom Disciples looks up through heaven to see ‘the heavens’ (diagram**), while the member of Christ’s Body (that’s us) looks up from within the Lamb to see God’s Infinite Realm (Fig 1**). :0) Those of us already IN Christ Jesus with an inheritance in “His Heavenly Kingdom” (Fig 2** = 2Tim. 4:18) have already seen our angel and man halves joined into one “immortal soul,” while Peter, John, James and everyone part of the Kingdom “Bride” continues to be a ‘water witness’ host for their angelic super-half still standing on the sea of glass on the other side of Christ on His left hand (thus 24 elders = 12 of men and 12 of their angelic halves). Actually, the angels see things backwards (everything is left handed in the heavens), so they see themselves as standing at the Lamb’s right hand too. :0)

Jews that are saved today become part of the body of Christ ... gal 3:28 all are one in Christ

We as

eph 3:12 can go boldly before the throne of grace

Heb 4:16 can also go boldly before the throne of grace

they are just dealing with different issues




This is another misconception of C.R.Stam that I addressed here in case anyone is interested. The Jews (Israel of the flesh) are actually given a ‘twofold’ promise to become as the stars of the heavens ‘and’ as the sand upon the seashore. Gen. 22:17. The difference is that our mystery “Body of Christ” is promised only a ‘heavenly’ destiny (Gen. 15:5-6),

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

we agree on a lot but some of your deductions ... sorry

 

[onwingsaseagles]

Romans 2:28-29
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord is rich unto all that call upon his name.

Romans 11:16-24
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree:
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, the branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.
20 Well: because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standeth by faith. Be not high minded but fear.
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou shall also be cut off.
23 And they also if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree that is wild by nature, and were grafted in contrary to nature into the good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branched be grated into there own olive tree?

Romans 12:5 So we being many, are one body in Christ, and every one member one of another.

Galatians 3:28-29
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you be Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Galatians 6:15-16
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Ephesians 2:11-19
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in times past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands.
12 That at times past you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonweath of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For He is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandment in ordinances; for to make in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you that were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God.

Ephesians 4:4-6
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as you are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of us all, who is above all, and through us all, and in you all.

We can clearly see that scripture teaches, the Jew and Gentile/Israel and the Church have become one new man. That there is only one Faith, and that we are all apart of the same body in Christ. That a Jew is not one that is a Jew outwardly, but a Jew is one that is one inwardly circumcised in the heart by the Spirit, regardless of blood line. Scripture tell us that believing Gentiles have been grafted into the good Olive Tree which is Israel, who's root is Christ, and whoever has been baptized into Christ, have become citizens of the true Israel of God with the saints, being seeds of Abraham, heirs according to the promise. We have not replaced Israel at all, but we are included with them in all the promises of God, being one with and equal to them, not separate from them in any way.

 

[RTE (Road to Emmaus)]

Terral,

Paul just finished describing Israel of the flesh in Romans 9:1-5 to THEN begin describing the ‘children of promise’ in Romans 9:6-8.
And calls the children of promise "Israel".
And thus declares: "They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God"

Couldn’t be clearer even if it was made of air.






If anyone is really and truly "IN Christ Jesus," then they are a new creature part of a totally "New Creation" (Gal. 6:15). Some folks simply want to replace Israel of the flesh
Why not? You have in your first line here, so we might as well join you.